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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Seconded. Extraspecially yummy.<br>
<br>
How can I help?<br>
<br>
If Jen + Mark are willing, we could use ourselves as a test case,
or try to resolve the same thing we resolve naturally when Mark
gets back, via IRC, too, to test the bot. I recommend "literate
programming" as being both geek and non-geek friendly (and I like
ECMAscript, squeak, Python, and UNICODE/multilingualism as tools).<br>
<br>
Timon: Tel=voice=+1.415.900.8233; internet every 72 hours or so,
for now.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/30/13 11:10 PM, Garrett Robinson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGLD4YAC+m-BPq2gpyEakg0VhsrTVpc4hfOAeARP4O5ffgtB=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">We discussed giving a Sudoroom IRC bot operator
privileges at the last (not tonight's) weekly meeting. While
just giving the bot ops privileges only moves the problem
another layer away (to whoever can control the bot), I was
thinking about programming it with behavior to enforce community
guidelines.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>For example, if a user is misbehaving in the channel, other
users could priv msg the bot until a quorum is reached that
allows the bot to kick the misbehaving user.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="">Allowing a bot to do this using policies that we
have agreed upon (running open source code of course) would be
the best solution to this problem IMHO.</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style="">I have been working on a bot in node.js (mostly as
a way to improve my javascript) that is almost ready to be
implemented in the channel. We should compare code, see which
codebase it would make sense to move forward with, and
implement this!</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:48 PM,
Matthew Meier <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolfy@wlfy.it" target="_blank">wolfy@wlfy.it</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Just wanted to advertise that I had it as an option.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I didn't write any direct control into the bot thus
far. But the thing about a bot is that the community could
control it. It could, without emotion, act on the IRC
policies we program it to know.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Wolfy<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:44 PM,
David Rorex <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:drorex@gmail.com" target="_blank">drorex@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
How is the bot any better than using the built in
ChanServ features?<br>
And don't you end up with the same problem of deciding
who gets to<br>
control the bot?
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<div>
<div><br>
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Matthew Meier
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolfy@wlfy.it" target="_blank">wolfy@wlfy.it</a>>
wrote:<br>
> I've also written an IRC bot in python.
super basic that can ops people from<br>
> a list. It works with server messages
directly too so i can write it to<br>
> perform any other actions that would be
beneficial to our IRC channel and<br>
> policy.<br>
><br>
> Just throwing that out there.<br>
><br>
> -Wolfy<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Matthew
Senate <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mattsenate@gmail.com"
target="_blank">mattsenate@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> OKAY, I've added some more to the
conflict resolution item on our agenda<br>
>> tonight: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://pad.riseup.net/p/sudoroom"
target="_blank">https://pad.riseup.net/p/sudoroom</a><br>
>><br>
>> // Matt<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:15 PM,
rachel lyra hospodar<br>
>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com"
target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> i think this reply is dismissive
and it makes me sadfaced.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Yardena is talking about much
deeper and more insidious, and potentially<br>
>>> divisive, issues than typos or
spelling. If you think her concerns are<br>
>>> boring, then you could easily
ignore them and stay silent without being<br>
>>> dismissive and rude.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Yardena did an awesome job of
facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours<br>
>>> last week... it seems to me like
anyone who enjoyed that experience with her<br>
>>> might take a moment to give a
damn about her concerns.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Multiple folks have suggested it
would be good to have a clear IRC<br>
>>> policy. That seems like a good
next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded with<br>
>>> Yardena's suggestion here? I am
not active on the channel so am not sure if<br>
>>> it makes sense for me to be too
involved in that process...?<br>
>>><br>
>>> R.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence
Beeks wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Do you know why America is
awesome? We have the time and privilege and<br>
>>>> resources to argue<br>
>>>> over replacing a "Y" with a
"J".<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I can't wait for the next
comet.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54
PM, Yardena Cohen <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yardenack@gmail.com"
target="_blank">yardenack@gmail.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yardenack@gmail.com"
target="_blank">yardenack@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> >> Apparently the
Sudo folk with admin privileges to the
#sudoroom<br>
>>>> IRC channel are jealously
resistant to sharing control,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> > This is not the
case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator<br>
>>>> privileges and can
perform any sort of moderation they desire. If<br>
>>>> you have an issue with
the content of #sudoroom, creating a new<br>
>>>> channel will not solve
that problem.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I avoided replying to
this right away, because I was too angry and<br>
>>>> creeped out over being
called "Jordana." He did this once before in<br>
>>>> the IRC while at the same
time talking about me with male pronouns<br>
>>>> (he/his) - he knows
better, so I took this as targeted harassment,<br>
>>>> or<br>
>>>> at the very least
disingenuous passive aggressive participation
in<br>
>>>> the<br>
>>>> trolling games that have
been going on lately. He's apologized to me<br>
>>>> in private since then but
I just want to register that joking about<br>
>>>> hackerspace wars can be
fun, but actually gaslighting each other is<br>
>>>> NOT fun. It can be scary,
intimidating, and seriously compromise the<br>
>>>> accessibility and
diversity of our community.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> As to the substance, he's
absolutely right that we have op<br>
>>>> privileges,<br>
>>>> but this obscures a few
things. For technical background, I<br>
>>>> encourage<br>
>>>> people to read about the
difference between +F and +o. Your best<br>
>>>> guide<br>
>>>> will be logging onto
freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help
flags"<br>
>>>> but more general guides
are online:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes"
target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes</a><br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml"
target="_blank">https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> There've been conflicts
over how to run the channel. Namely:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 1) The person with +F has
used his privileges to override the<br>
>>>> decisions of those with
only +o, at several times unquieting people<br>
>>>> we've quieted. The
contexts for these were admittedly
controversial<br>
>>>> and fall on ideological
fault lines over how to run an IRC channel<br>
>>>> in<br>
>>>> general, so I agree 100%
with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the<br>
>>>> way to go. For the
record, this has been mostly about using<br>
>>>> oppressive<br>
>>>> slurs, and my position
has been not to tolerate them very much. We<br>
>>>> happen to have in our
community a person who makes it his life's<br>
>>>> work<br>
>>>> to push peoples' buttons
with slurs, and happened to be doing that<br>
>>>> IN<br>
>>>> the IRC channel. He'd
also made a habit of typing anatomical words<br>
>>>> at<br>
>>>> random times. Form your
own opinions. Again, the solution to this<br>
>>>> may<br>
>>>> be more about having a
clear policy, than who enforces it.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 2) The person with +F has
acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel<br>
>>>> with ascii art of an
ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an<br>
>>>> "accident", which would
be a no-brainer kban in most any channel.<br>
>>>> When<br>
>>>> asked to share +F with
other people, his response was to vandalize<br>
>>>> the<br>
>>>> Sudoroom wiki to say he
is the "leader" (<br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure"
target="_blank">http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure</a>
). In the meantime, he<br>
>>>> shares +F with a friend
of his who hadn't been to Sudoroom since<br>
>>>> summer 2012 and didn't
even seem to know anybody's name. They'd also<br>
>>>> set the +S (successor)
flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a<br>
>>>> Sudoroom member and has
even publically criticized Sudoroom. This<br>
>>>> sent<br>
>>>> a clear message to the
rest of us that we were dealing with people<br>
>>>> who<br>
>>>> saw us as a joke; didn't
respect our community; and that there was<br>
>>>> little we could do about
it in the short term. That mistrust has<br>
>>>> colored all of the talk
over IRC privileges since then, and has only<br>
>>>> escalated since these
same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made<br>
>>>> it<br>
>>>> significantly longer (by
complaining about the meeting being long!),<br>
>>>> and also filled our
meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",<br>
>>>> "poop" and "this is why
you guys never hack anything".<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I'm not bitter or
anything, just trying to bring out some of the<br>
>>>> subtext here for those
not following why things are happening the<br>
>>>> way<br>
>>>> they are.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think the best
formulation for IRC rules that everyone can
agree<br>
>>>> on<br>
>>>> would be something like:
we want the IRC channel to accurately<br>
>>>> reflect<br>
>>>> the atmosphere at the
physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely<br>
>>>> encompasses all the many
behavioral problems and general do's and<br>
>>>> don'ts. Honestly the room
itself has rarely had the kind of problems<br>
>>>> the channel has, because
people tend to be a lot more decent to each<br>
>>>> other face to face, and
because it self-selects for people who care<br>
>>>> about the community.<br>
>>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
target="_blank">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
target="_blank">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss"
target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
target="_blank">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss"
target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
target="_blank">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss"
target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
target="_blank">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss"
target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
target="_blank">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss"
target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss"
target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a>
</pre>
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