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Anthony, I know you didn't mean "no grids," but I was concerned that
a quick skim of this discussion by anyone who didn't know the
material in depth, might lead to the wrong conclusions. <br>
<br>
For an example of the danger of over-centralization:<br>
<br>
Consider the conversion of the public switched telephone network to
VOIP, in light of the desire on the part of telcos to reap a huge
honking windfall by selling off their vast real estate holdings.
AT&T owns about 5,000 central offices, at least one in just
about every medium or larger city in the USA. Comcast has FIVE
nationwide, and AT&T would love to do likewise, and conversion
to VOIP will accomplish just that. <br>
<br>
I'm sure you know what it's called when you centralize something by
a factor of 1,000 to 1: <br>
<br>
"A high-value target." <br>
<br>
Something that's just begging to be hit hard and taken out, by a
crazed dictator or an international terrorist group, or perhaps by a
few sociopaths of the same kind who run ID theft rings and bank-card
skimmer rings, or perhaps by someone out for the sheer thrill of
smashing and wrecking.<br>
<br>
The plans for the "smart power grid" will produce more high-value
targets: regional power control systems, centrally managed, all
internet-connected and just daring the assholes of the world to hit
them.<br>
<br>
Already, smart meters provide a tasty treat for predators. I'm
aware of a couple of vulnerabilities that haven't been published,
that would enable a single person with a grudge to black out a
neighborhood for a couple of days. This situation will compound as
smart meters, smart grids, and stupid regulatory officials
converge. <br>
<br>
All of this over-centralization, and over-reliance on "smart"
things, is causing our entire society to crawl further and further
out on a limb that becomes more and more fragile every day. Sooner
than later, something will break, bigtime. <br>
<br>
In a very practical sense, we have to be concerned with resilience.
<br>
<br>
About which more in my next post.<br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
=====<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13-03-26-Tue 5:28 PM, Anthony Di
Franco wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOJkv1r0zQ90F=EA_8JfDxXdQ6de6y2VZNQ5AO4EBiAtX3ehEw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial
narrow',sans-serif">To be clear, I don't mean to say "no
grids!1!!1!!!" but just "use large-scale grids only for what
they're best for in the context of a broader heterogeneous
system, not for almost everything as they are now, and take
into account in a rigorous way overall system efficiency and
other concerns like vulnerability to failures both routine and
rare and corruptibility of the social systems that grow up
around the technical systems."</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial
narrow',sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial
narrow',sans-serif">I remember discussing these points a few
times in the past with you, George, and Hol, and others around
sudo room; might we like to get some documentation together on
interesting specifics? A section of the wiki maybe, where we
can throw ideas up about the details and see what sticks?</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 5:06 PM,
Anon195714 <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">anon195714@sbcglobal.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<br>
A lot of the arguement against power grids is ultimately
rooted in opposition to having our energy supply
controlled by distant corporations whose decisions are not
sustainable and not in our interests. <br>
<br>
I agree that over-dependence on greedy corporations for
vital infrastructure, merely for the sake of convenience,
is a shortcut to servitude. Google is the worst offender,
with its seductive Gmail and Google Voice offering
"convenience" in exchange for intensive and intrusive
surveillance, not only of those who use the services, but
of everyone they communicate with. (Worst of all, Google
Glass: "become a volunteer surveillance drone!")<br>
<br>
The model we should be looking toward, to manage the power
grid, is one of municipally-owned transmission
infrastructure (the wires along the streets), and
diversification of power producers (from individual
households to the existing power utilities). Everyone
would be paid the same rate for power they "upload" to the
grid, and everyone would pay the same rate for power they
"download." This would immediately level the playing
field and provide an enormous incentive for all manner of
renewable and new-tech power generation. <br>
<br>
Further, the municipal ownership model should also apply
to the wired telecoms grid: telephone and internet. (Even
your mobile device is only "wireless" for the last half
mile at most; the rest of the way it's as wired as my
antique dial phones.) All of these things are using the
public rights-of-way along the streets; they are arguably
public rights-of-way in themselves, and as such, should be
owned by the public. <br>
<br>
The municipal internet of electricity would entail each
local power producer (household or larger) having small
storage capacity on-site, and a switching synchronized
inverter to connect to the grid. An onboard
microprocessor with an analog voltage sensors would
monitor line power to determine when power should be
uploaded to the grid or downloaded from the grid. Simple
"net metering" would keep track of the billing. <br>
<br>
The small decentralized battery packs would act primarily
as buffers, to level out power production and consumption
among users. Overnight and over multiple cloudy days, and
during peak demand hours, the decentralized solar would be
supplemented by other power sources such as micro-reactors
and natural gas turbines. <br>
<br>
The uniform pricing mechanism would prevent predatory
"arbitrage" of electricity, and provide the incentive to
install solar panels on every solar-accessible flat
surface, even on bus shelters and other street kiosks. <br>
<br>
The point-of-production microprocessors would be isolated
from the internet to prevent cyber-attacks against the
grid: the best kind of "smart grid" is one that
self-regulates locally without being vulnerable globally.
<br>
<br>
I should also mention: Yes, electric automobiles can
provide household power storage in the absence of having a
grid, but a) not everyone owns or even wants an
automobile, b) if you've drained your car battery pack
overnight to power your house, it's not available the next
morning to get you to work, and c) even if everyone could
afford a new electric car, there are good reasons to
reduce car ownership and usage in favor of bicycles,
scooters, motorcycles, buses, and trains. <br>
<br>
Beyond that, we should not be destroying our civic
infrastructure in favor of requiring everyone to have
their own i-Things or do without. Public phones, public
bathrooms (do you really want to carry an i-Pee around?),
public drinking fountains, public benches for sitting,
public transport, etc.: are all civic goods that make the
public sphere more user-friendly and accessible. A public
power grid is another example, as with public water
supply, public sewage treatment, and refuse disposal: life
without those things would be worse than miserable.<br>
<br>
Don't destroy it: reclaim it, revision it, and rebuild
it. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
=====<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-03-26-Tue 3:41 PM, Anthony Di Franco wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">Production of alternative
energy can be and for most reasons probably should
be much less centralized, equivalently,
smaller-scale, than production of energy mostly is
now. (Off-grid, as you mention, but very literally.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Large-scale up front +
large, complex distribution networks is revealed as
an obsolete architecture; large scale distribution
networks become relatively less important, so even
if the answer to your question is no, which it
probably isn't given crowdfunding and other
disintermediated finance gaining momentum, it's
moot, or at least of much less relative importance.</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Put another way, when the
most important goal is maximum efficiency rather
than maximum centralization, large upfront capital
investment + large, complex distribution network is
stupid; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com/"
target="_blank">proper accounting</a> of all costs
and benefits in a global rather than piecewise local
sense reveals this now for agriculture,
manufacturing, energy, ...</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Even now, buffering between
supply and demand is a constraint on grid
architecture leading to great economic demand within
the current paradigm for distributed storage /
production of energy according to someone who came
through sudo room whose name escapes me.</div>
<div class="gmail_default">This loosely-drafted email
brought to you by the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2010/11/eaas-non-rival-goods-vs-rival-goods.html"
target="_blank">slogan</a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.miiu.org/wiki/Resilient_Things_by_Top-Level_Category"
target="_blank">"localize production, virtualize
everything else"</a> and the acronym <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.accelerationwatch.com/mest.html"
target="_blank">STEMI</a> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2008/11/stemi.html"
target="_blank">compression</a>.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 3:17
PM, Romy Ilano <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com" target="_blank">romy@snowyla.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Is it possible to create
alternative energy distribution networks
(biofuels/solar/ wind etc) that replace
mainstream petrol and natural gas based energy
without a large financial sector?
<div><br>
</div>
<div> the vc system that funds these alternative
energy start-ups piggy backs off the
investment banks, etc. and big private equity
and institutional investment funds. vcs are
like a fly on the @ss of a financial hippo.</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>I haven't heard people discuss off-grid
that much in the tech talks I've been to(
which are excellent). Is there a conversation
here that would show how off grid is a viable
alternative, even if it's not a big money
solution?<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 26,
2013 at 1:56 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hol@gaskill.com"
target="_blank">hol@gaskill.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">this talk
about imports and exports always reminds
me of energy flow<br>
<br>
compare 2011<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2012/Oct/images/25306_LLNLUSEnergy2011650.jpg"
target="_blank">https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2012/Oct/images/25306_LLNLUSEnergy2011650.jpg</a><br>
<br>
<br>
with 2002<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.hubbertpeak.com/us/images/us_energyflow2002.jpg"
target="_blank">http://www.hubbertpeak.com/us/images/us_energyflow2002.jpg</a><br>
<br>
fascinating<br>
</blockquote>
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