<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">Relevant design questions:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">How much power generation / storage / transmission capacity exists at various scales?</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">How much of each should exist at each scale if taking advantage of currently little-used technologies to improve overall system goals (efficiency, resilience, ...)?</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'arial narrow',sans-serif">I claim a promising answer to the second set of questions is more generation and storage at smaller scales (village / neighborhood / city mainly with some at home), with a corresponding reduction in that at the larger scales, not inconsistently with any of the things you pointed out. Involving a very broad range of options including such as growing crops for fuel to burn alongside waste at small scales.</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Anon195714 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">anon195714@sbcglobal.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
Here I'll have to differ, speaking from experience a) having worked
on a couple of household solar installations, and b) having worked
on design engineering and business planning for wind farms of 49 MW
and 250 MW rated capacity, and c) from knowledge gained from folks
at the nation's oldest regional solar contractor, that has been a
client of mine for the better part of a decade. <br>
<br>
Decentralized power generation as compared with major power plants,
is like desktop computers as compared with mainframes or server
farms. The value of a desktop computer or a hand-held device is not
only in what it can do by itself: the value of it increases
radically when it's networked with other devices. <br>
<br>
If you want to "cut the wires," be prepared to spend thousands of
dollars for a battery bank at your home, to store the solar power
from your roof. This represents not only large cost, but a large
commitment of material resources used in an ecologically and
economically wasteful manner. <br>
<br>
But when your household solar is connected to the grid, you can
"upload" power you don't need at the moment, and "download" power
when you do. You can optionally have a small backup battery that's
sufficient for night-time power for essentials (a couple of lights,
telecoms, and fridge) if the grid goes down in an earthquake.
Economically and ecologically it's a winner. "Grid-tied solar" is
the business model that has been so successful that nationwide solar
firms have sprouted to provide solar leasing to the public. <br>
<br>
The same case applies to wind, and here, basic physics and
arithmetic prove the point. The efficiency of a wind generator is
proportional to the swept blade circle, based on the relationship
between the diameter and the area of the circle. Home-sized wind
generators are insufficient to power homes except in Class 4 and 5
(high wind) areas. Wind generators only begin to become efficient
in the range of 250 KW and up; the largest ones today are in the 5
MW range. <br>
<br>
Wind is subject to intermittency, so it requires either storage or
integration with other power sources. The ideal case is to use
water as the storage medium, for example by teaming up a new wind
farm with an existing hydroelectric dam. New-design "micro
reactors" or "nuclear batteries" using intrinsically safe fission
technology are also viable in this role, and lastly, natural gas
turbine "peaker plants" can be used (they are the cleanest
carbon-based option and acceptable in conjunction with renewables).
<br>
<br>
It may be that at some point, a new type of solar, fission, fusion,
or advanced-physics technology, becomes feasible for household use.
But even then: interconnecting homes and other buildings, provides
backup for times when you have to take your machine off-line for
maintenance, or if it malfunctions and has to be replaced. <br>
<br>
More about a better model, "the internet of electricity," in my next
posting...<br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
=====<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-03-26-Tue 3:41 PM, Anthony Di
Franco wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">Production of alternative energy can be
and for most reasons probably should be much less centralized,
equivalently, smaller-scale, than production of energy mostly
is now. (Off-grid, as you mention, but very literally.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Large-scale up front + large, complex
distribution networks is revealed as an obsolete architecture;
large scale distribution networks become relatively less
important, so even if the answer to your question is no, which
it probably isn't given crowdfunding and other
disintermediated finance gaining momentum, it's moot, or at
least of much less relative importance.</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Put another way, when the most important
goal is maximum efficiency rather than maximum centralization,
large upfront capital investment + large, complex distribution
network is stupid; <a href="https://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">proper
accounting</a> of all costs and benefits in a global rather
than piecewise local sense reveals this now for agriculture,
manufacturing, energy, ...</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Even now, buffering between supply and
demand is a constraint on grid architecture leading to great
economic demand within the current paradigm for distributed
storage / production of energy according to someone who came
through sudo room whose name escapes me.</div>
<div class="gmail_default">This loosely-drafted email brought to you
by the <a href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2010/11/eaas-non-rival-goods-vs-rival-goods.html" target="_blank">slogan</a>,
<a href="http://www.miiu.org/wiki/Resilient_Things_by_Top-Level_Category" target="_blank">"localize
production, virtualize everything else"</a> and the acronym
<a href="http://www.accelerationwatch.com/mest.html" target="_blank">STEMI</a>
<a href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2008/11/stemi.html" target="_blank">compression</a>.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Romy
Ilano <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com" target="_blank">romy@snowyla.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Is it possible to create alternative energy
distribution networks (biofuels/solar/ wind etc) that
replace mainstream petrol and natural gas based energy
without a large financial sector?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
the vc system that funds these alternative energy
start-ups piggy backs off the investment banks, etc. and
big private equity and institutional investment funds.
vcs are like a fly on the @ss of a financial hippo.</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>I haven't heard people discuss off-grid that much in
the tech talks I've been to( which are excellent). Is
there a conversation here that would show how off grid
is a viable alternative, even if it's not a big money
solution?<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 1:56
PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hol@gaskill.com" target="_blank">hol@gaskill.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">this
talk about imports and exports always reminds me
of energy flow<br>
<br>
compare 2011<br>
<a href="https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2012/Oct/images/25306_LLNLUSEnergy2011650.jpg" target="_blank">https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2012/Oct/images/25306_LLNLUSEnergy2011650.jpg</a><br>
<br>
<br>
with 2002<br>
<a href="http://www.hubbertpeak.com/us/images/us_energyflow2002.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.hubbertpeak.com/us/images/us_energyflow2002.jpg</a><br>
<br>
fascinating<br>
</blockquote>
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