<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Great discussion this has started. Anon195714, my apologies for getting defensive and blaming you for not being aware. <br><br></div>The default Mailman messages are indeed unclear. I need to focus on prior commitments today, but I encourage folks to suggest rewordings themselves: <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org">http://lists.sudoroom.org</a>. Same goes for scrubbing email addresses and creating a robots.txt file. If anyone would like to volunteer to hack on this, I volunteer as a point of contact for server access and implementation. <br>
</div><div><br></div>Rabbit: the IRC channel is not logged and never has been, although we have discussed a bot that would bookmark / record a point in the conversation with another user's prompt.<br><br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br clear="all"><div>Jenny<br>
<a href="http://jennyryan.net/" target="_blank">http://jennyryan.net</a><br>
<a href="http://thepyre.org/" target="_blank">http://thepyre.org</a><br>
<a href="http://thevirtualcampfire.org/" target="_blank">http://thevirtualcampfire.org</a><br>
<a href="http://technomadic.tumblr.com/" target="_blank">http://technomadic.tumblr.com</a><br>
<br>
`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`<br>
<div>
"Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."<br>
-Laurie Anderson<br>
<br>
"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it."<br>
-Hannah Arendt<br>
<br>
"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."<br>
-Stéphane Mallarmé<br>
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`</div>
</div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Rabbit <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rabbitface@gmail.com" target="_blank">rabbitface@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi everyone, I'm a new potential member (see you at the Python meetup tonight).<br>
<br>
I'd like to share an essay by Bruce Schneier:<br>
<a href="http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/privacy_and_con.html" target="_blank">http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/privacy_and_con.html</a><br>
<br>
"To the older generation, privacy is about secrecy. And, as the<br>
Supreme Court said, once something is no longer secret, it's no longer<br>
private. But that's not how privacy works, and it's not how the<br>
younger generation thinks about it. Privacy is about control. [...]<br>
Your loss of control over that information is the issue. We may not<br>
mind sharing our personal lives and thoughts, but we want to control<br>
how, where and with whom. A privacy failure is a control failure."<br>
<br>
With that in mind, here are my personal commandments for software that I write:<br>
-- If someone is ever surprised by the privacy outcome of a piece of<br>
software, the software needs to be made more clear. Never blame the<br>
user for not understanding things<br>
-- Allow people to delete or take down their content<br>
-- The extent to which content is indexed / searchable matters.<br>
There's a practical difference between public-but-not-searchable and<br>
public-and-appears-on-Google. Technically neither is secret, but<br>
that's not the only thing that matters.<br>
-- Things that people say in an ephemeral context, like small talk,<br>
should stay ephemeral.<br>
<br>
One way to move forward would be to have two lists -- a public<br>
archived-forever one and a private ephemeral one.<br>
<br>
(P.S. is the IRC channel logged too?)<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
-Rabbit<br>
</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, William Budington <<a href="mailto:bill@inputoutput.io">bill@inputoutput.io</a>> wrote:<br>
> On 04/11/2013 11:58 AM, aestetix wrote:<br>
><br>
>> There's also the use case issue (I'm sure there's a more proper term).<br>
>> I'm totally ok with our list being transparent to people who want to<br>
>> learn and teach others. I'm a lot less ok with it going to a large<br>
>> company that will be using it to data-mine what products to target<br>
>> consumers with. If you take that a step further you'll find a<br>
>> quasi-analogy to Real Genius.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Unfortunately, I don't think there is a clear separation between what<br>
> will be used to benefit others by being transparent and what will be<br>
> used to harm us personally. We can talk theoretically about this issue,<br>
> but there is no practical situation where we can prevent someone with a<br>
> disproportionate amount of power from using our written words against<br>
> us. Based on these words, an employer can hire or fire us, pressure us,<br>
> and political authorities can do whatever they want to us. So our words<br>
> don't operate in a vacuum where we can control their lateral effects.<br>
> Words are not circuits, and have no control flow. Or if they do, it is<br>
> by no straightforward mechanism that they travel.<br>
><br>
> We can also develop policies and opt-out strategies (robots.txt for<br>
> example) to limit the archivability of our words, but this seems to me<br>
> an imperfect solution. Primarily because it only limits the webcrawlers<br>
> that themselves opt-in to obeying these requests.<br>
><br>
>> That said, this is part of a much larger "boundaries" discussion the<br>
>> internet is forcing the world to have right now.<br>
>><br>
>> Anyhow, just my two cents, feel free to disregard at your pleasure :)<br>
>><br>
>> Hail Eris,<br>
>> aestetix<br>
>><br>
>> User-agent: googlebot<br>
>> Disallow: *<br>
>><br>
>> On 4/11/13 11:27 AM, Anon195714 wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Sorry but a little more "transparency and openness" about what was<br>
>>> going to happen to emails to that list, rather than using overtly<br>
>>> misleading language, would have prevented this kerfluffle in the<br>
>>> first place.<br>
>><br>
>>> "Categorically object" all you like, but that boils down to an<br>
>>> assertion that you have some kind of right to make and spread<br>
>>> copies of someone else's words _against their will_, and infringe<br>
>>> their privacy _against their will_, which is truly authoritarian.<br>
>><br>
>>> Aestetix, if you're reading this, your input would be highly<br>
>>> welcome.<br>
>><br>
>>> Meanwhile I have work to do today.<br>
>><br>
>>> -G.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> =====<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> On 13-04-11-Thu 10:58 AM, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> At the bottom of every email to this list is a link to<br>
>>>> 'listinfo' which opens with an archive of every post to the list.<br>
>>>> If the boilerplate seems unclear to people we can talk about<br>
>>>> changing it but I categorically object to removing anything from<br>
>>>> the archive.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Transparency and openness are part of our core values, archiving<br>
>>>> emails is very standard, the listinfo page makes it clear that<br>
>>>> this is done using completely standard language, and if anyone<br>
>>>> wishes to have their statements go unattributed they are welcome<br>
>>>> to not enter them into the Internet, or to use a pseudonym.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> R.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2013 10:53 AM, "Anon195714" <<a href="mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net">anon195714@sbcglobal.net</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net">georgio510@sbcglobal.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Let's be really clear about this:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> This is the explicit language in the sign-up document:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> "Subscribing to sudo-discuss Subscribe to sudo-discuss by filling<br>
>>>> out the following form. You will be sent email requesting<br>
>>>> confirmation, to prevent others from gratuitously subscribing<br>
>>>> you. This is a private list, which means that the list of members<br>
>>>> is not available to non-members."<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> "THIS IS A PRIVATE LIST, WHICH MEANS THAT THE LIST OF MEMBERS IS<br>
>>>> NOT AVAILABLE TO NON MEMBERS."<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> That's a representation of a material fact. And the link to the<br>
>>>> archive says NOTHING about that archive being anything that<br>
>>>> would violate or contradict the language I quoted above: no<br>
>>>> disclosure, no nothing.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Blatant misrepresentation.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> "May need to be doing a better job" is the understatement of the<br>
>>>> year.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The answer is, I'm going to hold SudoRoom to the terms &<br>
>>>> conditions I signed, and that material is going to be taken down<br>
>>>> immediately until such time as anything I've posted in it can be<br>
>>>> removed from any publicly searchable content. This is not<br>
>>>> optional, any more than free repair under warranty is optional,<br>
>>>> or the absence of horsemeat in "100% beef frankfurters" is<br>
>>>> optional.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I'm holding SudoRoom to its stated language.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> -G.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ======<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On 13-04-11-Thu 10:42 AM, Marina Kukso wrote:<br>
>>>>> hi george,<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> i'm very sorry that you feel that you did not consent to<br>
>>>>> having this information public. this list has been publicly<br>
>>>>> archived since it began and i think that we've tried to make<br>
>>>>> that clear (although it seems that we may need to be doing a<br>
>>>>> better job!).<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> unfortunately i'm not sure to what extent the "welcome to<br>
>>>>> sudo-discuss list" email that new list members receive<br>
>>>>> includes information about content being publicly archived<br>
>>>>> (could someone help with this?), but perhaps we may need to<br>
>>>>> make this more explicit in that letter.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> for additional background on why we made the decision to<br>
>>>>> publicly archive contents, the idea is not necessarily to<br>
>>>>> promote "transparency and openness" as a matter of principle<br>
>>>>> only, but because part of what we wanted to do with sudo room<br>
>>>>> is to make our history as easy for others to use as possible so<br>
>>>>> that others who are starting and running hackerspaces can learn<br>
>>>>> from our experience and discussion. in other words, to<br>
>>>>> facilitate ctrl-c/ctrl-v of hackerspaces around the world.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> - marina<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Anon195714<br>
>>>>> <<a href="mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net">georgio510@sbcglobal.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net">anon195714@sbcglobal.net</a>>><br>
>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Right, and when you slip LSD into the fruit punch at a party<br>
>>>>> and don't tell anyone, do you justify that by saying you're<br>
>>>>> trying to encourage enlightenment? Who needs informed consent<br>
>>>>> anyway, right? Hey, who needs consent of any kind?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Sorry yo, that don't go. It's NON CONSENSUAL, like seducing<br>
>>>>> someone and failing to disclose to them that you have STDs.<br>
>>>>> It's a trust-break in a big way.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I'm asserting my right to put this on the meeting agenda for<br>
>>>>> next Wednesday, and pull in any record of anything I signed<br>
>>>>> that contained TOS.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Let me be really clear about this: I'm as serious as a fucking<br>
>>>>> heart attack about this, and anyone who thinks it's a joke is<br>
>>>>> fucking sick.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> This "open and transparent" stuff is starting to become a chant<br>
>>>>> fit for a cult, that short-circuits reason and critical<br>
>>>>> thinking. In reality it's a house of one-way mirrors foisted<br>
>>>>> by the powerful on the masses to enable "prediction and<br>
>>>>> control" down to the level of the individual.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Enough was enough long ago, just like muggings and the rest of<br>
>>>>> it.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> -G.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> =====<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On 13-04-11-Thu 10:07 AM, <a href="mailto:mattsenate@gmail.com">mattsenate@gmail.com</a><br>
>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mattsenate@gmail.com">mattsenate@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>> We set the list up to be public in an effort to remain as<br>
>>>>>> transparent and open as possible. This is a blessing and a<br>
>>>>>> burden. We should be mindful of the scope of our language and<br>
>>>>>> interested in maintaining private conversation off the list.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Additionally, if you seek a lot of privacy, I don't recommend<br>
>>>>>> communicating over the internet if it can be helped.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> // Matt<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ----- Reply message ----- From: "Tracy Jacobs"<br>
>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:kinetical@comcast.net">kinetical@comcast.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kinetical@comcast.net">kinetical@comcast.net</a>> To:<br>
>>>>>> "Romy Ilano" <<a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com">romy@snowyla.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com">romy@snowyla.com</a>> Cc:<br>
>>>>>> "sudo-discuss" <<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>> Subject:<br>
>>>>>> [sudo-discuss] Michael Orange - film events - Battle for<br>
>>>>>> Brooklyn - any sudo members interested in an intro? Date:<br>
>>>>>> Thu, Apr 11, 2013 9:54 AM<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Sudoers,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Why does our discussion list have to be published on the<br>
>>>>>> internet? I don't personally want it to be that public. Who<br>
>>>>>> decided it should be done that way, and is there another<br>
>>>>>> option?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Tracy On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Romy Ilano<br>
>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com">romy@snowyla.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com">romy@snowyla.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Hey here is one of the film events that Michael Orange<br>
>>>>>>> from top 10 social is presenting.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited</a><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>> Michael's also working with the Oakland Library as well,so<br>
>>>>>>> I'll mention the history wki people from sudoroom are<br>
>>>>>>> there!<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> this probably isn't necessary for anyone here... but in<br>
>>>>>>> case one or two people gets the temptation:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> -- Michael Orange is an all around good guy--please treat<br>
>>>>>>> him well, minimize over the top business plans, "industry<br>
>>>>>>> type behavior", and approach him as you would a family<br>
>>>>>>> member. If we talk to him the wrong way it will be a smear<br>
>>>>>>> on my reputation and his opinion matters a lot to me. =D<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>>>>> <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss<br>
>>>>>> mailing list <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss<br>
>>>>> mailing list <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss<br>
>>>> mailing list <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss<br>
>>> mailing list <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>