<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>George in fact has stories about the crypto wars and Internet policy that are so valuable that they should be documented here at Sudo Room because of its uniqueness and technological depth. I also hope George gets some sleep today and remembers when he wakes that we're all on the same side, even if we don't know it yet.</div><div><br></div><div>In regards to the snippet from the sudo-discuss info page, i actually read it to mean that the list of members is private, not the discussion. But I will also admit that I had to read it more than once to figure that out.</div><div><br></div>One useful thing we can do as we integrate privacy by design into the tools we develop is to come to a more mutual understanding of what we mean by privacy. Disclosing my bias up front, I find Helen Nissenbaum's contextual integrity way of thinking about it resonates most with me (see her book Privacy in Context: Technology, Policy, and the Integrity of Social Life (2009) - <a href="http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=8862">http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=8862</a>). <div><br></div><div>Given the key role context plays in privacy whether or not you agree with her whole theory, we should parse out what our expectations of privacy are in the different forms of communication we have and ways we associate. So .... what is <i>your</i> expectation of privacy in some of the following contexts:</div><div><br></div><div>- at a Sudo Room RL meeting in the common area.<br><div>- at Sudo Room in the Sudo Room room in the back.</div><div>- while standing outside the building smoking something<br>- over the sudo-discuss mailing list & its public archives<br>- in one of our spin-off subject matter specific mailing lists</div><div>- at Sudo Square</div><div>- in the bathroom anywhere in the Sudo Room building</div><div>- inside a Sudo-related office, such as Roshambo's at the 2135 entrance, or the Public School or the <a href="http://eddan.com">eddan.com</a> office (suite 5)<br>- over IRC (or other chat)</div><div>- on the Wiki and on the etherpad<br></div><div>- conversations that start with: "Let me tell you this, but you have to promise to keep it secret"</div><div><br><div><br></div><div>sent from <a href="http://eddan.com">eddan.com</a></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Apr 11, 2013, at 11:56 AM, Romy Ilano <<a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com">romy@snowyla.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="auto"><div>In the middle of all this I hope George doesn't tone down. My biggest worry would that he stop being smart passionate and willing to speak from the other end of things. </div><div><br></div><div>We need people with integrity who say the unspeakable. In the long run it ultimately helps the companies that matter! </div><div><br><div>---</div><div><br></div><div>Romy Ilano</div><div>Founder of Snowyla</div><div><a href="http://www.snowyla.com/">http://www.snowyla.com</a></div><div><a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com">romy@snowyla.com</a></div></div><div><br>On Apr 11, 2013, at 11:46, Sonja Trauss <<a href="mailto:sonja.trauss@gmail.com">sonja.trauss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><p>Yeah i want to put in my vote as not sympathetic with Georgio's outrage. I'm sympathetic with 'being mad at onesself for overlooking something obvious,' but not with feeling tricked. </p><p>Dude, literally every email you get is two links away from the public archive!!! Moreover, aren't mailing lists like the first thing the internet had? One of the first things I ever read on the internet were mailing/ discussion list archives about ska music. I generally expect to be able to read the archives of any list I'm on or interested in, which means I expect them to be public and searchable. </p><p>If this was a list for grandmas I would maybe feel like it had a duty to be super explicit, it could assume its members knew nothing about the internet or how to use links, but this is a hackerspace email list. </p><p>If you guys want to make the archives private that's ok because it's easy to sign up for the list. <br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Apr 11, 2013 10:58 AM, "rachel lyra hospodar" <<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p>At the bottom of every email to this list is a link to 'listinfo' which opens with an archive of every post to the list. If the boilerplate seems unclear to people we can talk about changing it but I categorically object to removing anything from the archive.</p><p>Transparency and openness are part of our core values, archiving emails is very standard, the listinfo page makes it clear that this is done using completely standard language, and if anyone wishes to have their statements go unattributed they are welcome to not enter them into the Internet, or to use a pseudonym.</p><p>R.<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Apr 11, 2013 10:53 AM, "Georgio510" <<a href="mailto:georgio510@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">georgio510@sbcglobal.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
Let's be really clear about this: <br>
<br>
This is the explicit language in the sign-up document:<br>
<br>
"Subscribing to sudo-discuss<br>
Subscribe to sudo-discuss by filling out the following form. You
will be sent email requesting confirmation, to prevent others from
gratuitously subscribing you. This is a private list, which means
that the list of members is not available to non-members."<br>
<br>
"THIS IS A PRIVATE LIST, WHICH MEANS THAT THE LIST OF MEMBERS IS NOT
AVAILABLE TO NON MEMBERS."<br>
<br>
That's a representation of a material fact. And the link to the
archive says NOTHING about that archive being anything that would
violate or contradict the language I quoted above: no disclosure, no
nothing.<br>
<br>
Blatant misrepresentation. <br>
<br>
"May need to be doing a better job" is the understatement of the
year.<br>
<br>
The answer is, I'm going to hold SudoRoom to the terms &
conditions I signed, and that material is going to be taken down
immediately until such time as anything I've posted in it can be
removed from any publicly searchable content. This is not optional,
any more than free repair under warranty is optional, or the absence
of horsemeat in "100% beef frankfurters" is optional. <br>
<br>
I'm holding SudoRoom to its stated language. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
======<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-04-11-Thu 10:42 AM, Marina Kukso
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">hi george,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>i'm very sorry that you feel that you did not
consent to having this information public. this list has been
publicly archived since it began and i think that we've tried
to make that clear (although it seems that we may need to be
doing a better job!).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>unfortunately i'm not sure to what extent the
"welcome to sudo-discuss list" email that new list members
receive includes information about content being publicly
archived (could someone help with this?), but perhaps we may
need to make this more explicit in that letter.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>for additional background on why we made the
decision to publicly archive contents, the idea is not
necessarily to promote "transparency and openness" as a matter
of principle only, but because part of what we wanted to do
with sudo room is to make our history as easy for others to
use as possible so that others who are starting and running
hackerspaces can learn from our experience and discussion. in
other words, to facilitate ctrl-c/ctrl-v of hackerspaces
around the world.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- marina</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:29 AM,
Georgio510 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:georgio510@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">georgio510@sbcglobal.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<br>
Right, and when you slip LSD into the fruit punch at a
party and don't tell anyone, do you justify that by saying
you're trying to encourage enlightenment? Who needs
informed consent anyway, right? Hey, who needs consent of
any kind? <br>
<br>
Sorry yo, that don't go. It's NON CONSENSUAL, like
seducing someone and failing to disclose to them that you
have STDs. It's a trust-break in a big way. <br>
<br>
I'm asserting my right to put this on the meeting agenda
for next Wednesday, and pull in any record of anything I
signed that contained TOS. <br>
<br>
Let me be really clear about this: I'm as serious as a
fucking heart attack about this, and anyone who thinks
it's a joke is fucking sick. <br>
<br>
This "open and transparent" stuff is starting to become a
chant fit for a cult, that short-circuits reason and
critical thinking. In reality it's a house of one-way
mirrors foisted by the powerful on the masses to enable
"prediction and control" down to the level of the
individual.<br>
<br>
Enough was enough long ago, just like muggings and the
rest of it. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=====
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-04-11-Thu 10:07 AM, <a href="mailto:mattsenate@gmail.com" target="_blank">mattsenate@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span style="font-family:Arial">We set the list up to be
public in an effort to remain as transparent and
open as possible. This is a blessing and a burden.
We should be mindful of the scope of our language
and interested in maintaining private conversation
off the list.<br>
<br>
Additionally, if you seek a lot of privacy, I
don't recommend communicating over the internet if
it can be helped.<br>
<br>
// Matt<br>
<br>
<div>----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Tracy Jacobs" <a href="mailto:kinetical@comcast.net" target="_blank"><kinetical@comcast.net></a><br>
To: "Romy Ilano" <a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com" target="_blank"><romy@snowyla.com></a><br>
Cc: "sudo-discuss" <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org" target="_blank"><sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org></a><br>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] Michael Orange - film
events - Battle for Brooklyn - any sudo members
interested in an intro?<br>
Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 9:54 AM<br>
<br>
</div>
</span><br>
Sudoers,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why does our discussion list have to be
published on the internet? I don't personally
want it to be that public. Who decided it should
be done that way, and is there another option? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tracy<br>
<div>
<div>On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Romy Ilano
<<a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com" target="_blank">romy@snowyla.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hey here is one of the film
events that Michael Orange from top 10
social is presenting.
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited</a><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Michael's also working with the
Oakland Library as well,so I'll mention
the history wki people from sudoroom are
there!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>this probably isn't necessary for
anyone here... but in case one or two
people gets the temptation:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- Michael Orange is an all around
good guy--please treat him well,
minimize over the top business plans,
"industry type behavior", and approach
him as you would a family member. If we
talk to him the wrong way it will be a
smear on my reputation and his opinion
matters a lot to me. =D</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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