This looks like a case of technology not communicating the intent of its users. <div><br></div><div>The verbiage about the private list of members comes from our mail software, mailman, and refers to the fact that you can't send a command to get a list of subscribers. </div>
<div><br></div><div>The presence of the archive link in the footer, and the fact that that clicking the link takes you to a page that's accessible to the world at large, reflects the intent of the group: these messages are posted on the Internet. </div>
<div><br></div>Now I could pull out my giant libertarian nerd dong and tell George he should have known better - but I also have empathy for his sense of being violated. <div><br></div><div>Maybe there's a way to work together to anonymize George's past remarks? The mailman software stores the email addresses in a plaintext format, as far as I recall. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Anca </div><div><br></div><div><div><br>On Thursday, April 11, 2013, Anon195714 wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
Sorry but a little more "transparency and openness" about what was
going to happen to emails to that list, rather than using overtly
misleading language, would have prevented this kerfluffle in the
first place. <br>
<br>
"Categorically object" all you like, but that boils down to an
assertion that you have some kind of right to make and spread copies
of someone else's words _against their will_, and infringe their
privacy _against their will_, which is truly authoritarian. <br>
<br>
Aestetix, if you're reading this, your input would be highly
welcome. <br>
<br>
Meanwhile I have work to do today.<br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
=====<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div>On 13-04-11-Thu 10:58 AM, rachel lyra
hospodar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>At the bottom of every email to this list is a link to
'listinfo' which opens with an archive of every post to the
list. If the boilerplate seems unclear to people we can talk
about changing it but I categorically object to removing
anything from the archive.</p>
<p>Transparency and openness are part of our core values,
archiving emails is very standard, the listinfo page makes it
clear that this is done using completely standard language, and
if anyone wishes to have their statements go unattributed they
are welcome to not enter them into the Internet, or to use a
pseudonym.</p>
<p>R.<br>
</p>
<div>On Apr 11, 2013 10:53 AM, "Anon195714"
<<a>anon195714@sbcglobal.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<br>
Let's be really clear about this: <br>
<br>
This is the explicit language in the sign-up document:<br>
<br>
"Subscribing to sudo-discuss<br>
Subscribe to sudo-discuss by filling out the following form.
You will be sent email requesting confirmation, to prevent
others from gratuitously subscribing you. This is a private
list, which means that the list of members is not available
to non-members."<br>
<br>
"THIS IS A PRIVATE LIST, WHICH MEANS THAT THE LIST OF
MEMBERS IS NOT AVAILABLE TO NON MEMBERS."<br>
<br>
That's a representation of a material fact. And the link to
the archive says NOTHING about that archive being anything
that would violate or contradict the language I quoted
above: no disclosure, no nothing.<br>
<br>
Blatant misrepresentation. <br>
<br>
"May need to be doing a better job" is the understatement of
the year.<br>
<br>
The answer is, I'm going to hold SudoRoom to the terms &
conditions I signed, and that material is going to be taken
down immediately until such time as anything I've posted in
it can be removed from any publicly searchable content.
This is not optional, any more than free repair under
warranty is optional, or the absence of horsemeat in "100%
beef frankfurters" is optional. <br>
<br>
I'm holding SudoRoom to its stated language. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
======<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-04-11-Thu 10:42 AM, Marina Kukso wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">hi george,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>i'm very sorry that you feel that you did not
consent to having this information public. this list
has been publicly archived since it began and i think
that we've tried to make that clear (although it seems
that we may need to be doing a better job!).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>unfortunately i'm not sure to what extent the
"welcome to sudo-discuss list" email that new list
members receive includes information about content
being publicly archived (could someone help with
this?), but perhaps we may need to make this more
explicit in that letter.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>for additional background on why we made the
decision to publicly archive contents, the idea is not
necessarily to promote "transparency and openness" as
a matter of principle only, but because part of what
we wanted to do with sudo room is to make our history
as easy for others to use as possible so that others
who are starting and running hackerspaces can learn
from our experience and discussion. in other words, to
facilitate ctrl-c/ctrl-v of hackerspaces around the
world.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- marina</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:29
AM, Anon195714 <span dir="ltr"><<a>anon195714@sbcglobal.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<br>
Right, and when you slip LSD into the fruit punch
at a party and don't tell anyone, do you justify
that by saying you're trying to encourage
enlightenment? Who needs informed consent
anyway, right? Hey, who needs consent of any
kind? <br>
<br>
Sorry yo, that don't go. It's NON CONSENSUAL,
like seducing someone and failing to disclose to
them that you have STDs. It's a trust-break in a
big way. <br>
<br>
I'm asserting my right to put this on the meeting
agenda for next Wednesday, and pull in any record
of anything I signed that contained TOS. <br>
<br>
Let me be really clear about this: I'm as serious
as a fucking heart attack about this, and anyone
who thinks it's a joke is fucking sick. <br>
<br>
This "open and transparent" stuff is starting to
become a chant fit for a cult, that short-circuits
reason and critical thinking. In reality it's a
house of one-way mirrors foisted by the powerful
on the masses to enable "prediction and control"
down to the level of the individual.<br>
<br>
Enough was enough long ago, just like muggings and
the rest of it. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=====
<div>
<div><br>
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<div>On 13-04-11-Thu 10:07 AM, <a>mattsenate@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span style="font-family:Arial">We set the list
up to be public in an effort to remain as
transparent and open as possible. This is
a blessing and a burden. We should be
mindful of the scope of our language and
interested in maintaining private
conversation off the list.<br>
<br>
Additionally, if you seek a lot of
privacy, I don't recommend communicating
over the internet if it can be helped.<br>
<br>
// Matt<br>
<br>
<div>----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Tracy Jacobs" <a><kinetical@comcast.net></a><br>
To: "Romy Ilano" <a><romy@snowyla.com></a><br>
Cc: "sudo-discuss" <a><sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org></a><br>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] Michael Orange -
film events - Battle for Brooklyn - any
sudo members interested in an intro?<br>
Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 9:54 AM<br>
<br>
</div>
</span><br>
Sudoers,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why does our discussion list have to be
published on the internet? I don't
personally want it to be that public.
Who decided it should be done that way,
and is there another option? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tracy<br>
<div>
<div>On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Romy
Ilano <<a>romy@snowyla.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hey here is one of the
film events that Michael Orange from
top 10 social is presenting.
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited</a><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Michael's also working with
the Oakland Library as well,so
I'll mention the history wki
people from sudoroom are there!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>this probably isn't necessary
for anyone here... but in case
one or two people gets the
temptation:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- Michael Orange is an all
around good guy--please treat
him well, minimize over the top
business plans, "industry type
behavior", and approach him as
you would a family member. If we
talk to him the wrong way it
will be a smear on my reputation
and his opinion matters a lot to
me. =D</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
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<a></a></pre></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div><br><br>-- <br>-=-=-=-<div>Anca Mosoiu | Tech Liminal</div><div><a href="mailto:anca@techliminal.com" target="_blank">anca@techliminal.com</a></div>
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