<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
Romy & YOs-<br>
<br>
Very interesting stuff. <br>
<br>
Re. the magic vs. science element:<br>
<br>
American superhero archetypes have plenty of "magic" going on, in
the sense that they can do things that appear to contradict physics,
and the explanations given are often minimal in the sense of "black
boxes" e.g. "came from another planet" or "was exposed to
chemicals/radiation/whatever."<br>
<br>
What we don't often see (I'm can't think of a single one at the
moment), are instances where American superheroes' unique powers are
overtly claimed to be "magic" or "supernatural" (above or outside of
nature). This seems to be related to our culture's engagement with
Abrahamic religion, as follows: <br>
<br>
1) Claims that unique powers were given by the Abrahamic deity
(YHWH, God, Allah):<br>
<br>
= For persons whose beliefs were within the orthodox Abrahamic
traditions, such claims could be considered blasphemous. (In these
traditions, unique powers or direct access to the deity, were
limited to individuals specified in scriptures. Asserting that the
deity would confer special powers on others (with extremely limited
exceptions e.g. saints), is seen as imputing something to the deity
that contradicts scripture and thereby offends the deity.) <br>
<br>
= For persons whose beliefs were otherwise (other religions,
agnosticism, atheism), such claims could be taken as unwelcome
religious proselytizing for Abrahamic beliefs.<br>
<br>
2) Claims that unique powers were given by some other supernatural
source (such as other "spirit entities" or "spiritual forces" of
whatever kind, including by implication such as "vision quests" and
so on):<br>
<br>
= For persons whose beliefs were orthodox Abrahamic, such claims
would be considered heretical. (Only the Abrahamic deity and
persons specified in scripture can initiate miracles, all else is
either illusory, or belief in false gods, or satanic.)<br>
<br>
= For persons whose beliefs were other (other religions,
agnosticism, atheism), such claims could be taken as a different
type of unwelcome religious proselytizing. <br>
<br>
3) Either case has the potential for creating needless controversies
and losing audience.<br>
<br>
In contrast, the use of approximately sciencey-sounding
explanations, doesn't run into the issues of deeply-held beliefs
associated with personal and tribal identity. Persons with relevant
science background may wince and even take offense ("that
contradicts physics!"), but any such objections are readily overcome
by the fiction paradigm of suspension of disbelief. <br>
<br>
Japanese indigenous religions (as well as Buddhism, which was
imported into Japan) are more "flexible" about the boundaries
between humans and supernatural forces/entities, and less
"exclusive" about the status of specific persons, than the Abrahamic
traditions. <br>
<br>
I wouldn't conclude that manga is "a deeper form of escapism," only
that the "other-worldliness" aspect differs between individuals and
cultures. <br>
<br>
For example, the statements "become one with God," "achieve
enlightenment," and "upload your mind to a computer," are all
soteriological statements: they point toward some form of salvation,
transcendence, or eternal life. People who believe in any of those,
routinely assert that what they believe in is true and real, and the
other beliefs are untrue or illusory in some way. <br>
<br>
Translated back to superhero fiction, what is "true and real" to
members of one culture, would appear to be "a deeper form of
escapism" to members of another culture, and similar variations
exist between individuals. This is analogous to the differences in
personal preferences between e.g. "fantasy," "soft science fiction,"
and "hard science fiction," each having a distinct audience with
limited overlap to the audiences for the others. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
=====<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13-05-27-Mon 4:00 PM, Romy Ilano
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFqWQB-pgZJXusqBCWhVG-qf-FfHk2ZApf7EOsWAH-qyEL63-Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/">http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/</a><br>
<br>
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman
and Goku. Specifically this is about a particular mainstream
Japanese hero character I see over and over again in Shonen
action based Anime / Manga and how it compares to mainstream
American super heroes. Of course I don’t mean to say there
aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold, only that
the type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern
mainstream media.
<p><strong>Growth Mindset</strong><br>
<font size="4"><b><span style="color:rgb(39,78,19)">For me,
the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are
based around a growth mindset. The hero must train hard
to unlock his hidden potential.</span></b></font> Even
if he is the chosen one of some kind or come from another
planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard work. Most
American super heroes were born with their powers or gained it
all at once through some happenstance beyond their control.
They will usually go through an awkward period of learning how
their powers work, but it will be more about discovery than
training.</p>
<p><span id="more-410"></span></p>
<p>The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is
the cultural importance of martial arts in Japan and other
Asian countries, as well as a more strict work ethic. Most of
the super powers imagined are centered around martial arts and
notion of building Chi. Many Anime have their own names for
this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit Force, just
to name a few. These forces are brought out through training
and will power. Characters are at their most powerful when put
in desperate situations and they are forced into a fit of
rage, protecting the ones they love. I might suggest that
American superpowers are looked at like property, or even like
winning the lottery. Japanese powers are more like the
inextricable essence of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai
referring to his sword as an extension of his soul.</p>
<p><strong>Magic VS Science</strong><br>
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful
life force inside us all. That or at least the laws of the
universe are different from our own. For example, “Full Metal
Alchemist” takes place in a world where alchemy really works.
American powers are way more often science related, and rooted
in our own universe, or at least a universe that is very
similar to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based
on unrealistically huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps,
since that’s the only way to go from the ordinary world to
something so amazing. Also the scientific explanations are
usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that
these Manga superheroes likely exist in an alternate world yet
American ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to me.
I wonder if this means that Manga superpower stories are a
deeper form of escapism. Even if American heroes take part in
a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed to exist in
parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of
us ordinary people.</p>
<p><strong>Dynamic Power Ups</strong><br>
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger
opponent isn’t in and of itself isn’t unique, but some
Japanese characters take this to a whole new level. Some even
quantify their power ups by calling them gears or levels. The
prime example is Dragon Ball Z. The idea that you can turn
these various states of power at will like shifting gears on a
car isn’t something I can ever remember seeing in an American
character, with the exception of when a character somehow
borrows or steals another characters powers for a particular
fight.</p>
<p><strong>Intuition</strong><br>
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does
the right thing when it matters. They are ruled by powerful
and accurate intuition. As in the way of the Samurai, all
decisions are made in the space of seven breaths, or much
less. Because of this their decisions sometimes seem rash to
those around them, though over time people grow to have faith
in them. American heroes will often struggle with the right
thing to do. Also, the main hero in Manga always seems to have
simple powers, simple attacks, compared to the other
characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use them in
a clever way, it is much more likely for the villain to have
complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s somehow related to
honor, that simple powers befit an honest hero.</p>
<p><strong>Care Free Attitude</strong><br>
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes
tend not to spend a lot of time worrying, and may even seem
careless. They have been know to randomly fall asleep at
inopportune moments, and accidentally say the wrong thing at
the wrong time. They have an innocence about them. After all
they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be related
with the way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate
importance lightly and small matters with the utmost
seriousness.</p>
<p><strong>Strength From Friendship</strong><br>
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually
tormented loners, forbidden from personal relationships. Often
their friends and family have lesser powers themselves. They
focus very heavily on being able to protect their loved ones,
but often have faith in them to take care of themselves.
American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate
weight on their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime /
Manga characters usually seem to treasure their strength,
their ability to protect people. For them, the ones they love
ARE their strength, instead of their weakness. They often
reach a new level of power up through the rage of a loved one
being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is surrounded
by ordinary humans. They are infinitely more capable than
everyone around them, so they are infinitely more responsible
and isolated. It also makes me wonder if the American mindset
is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far greater
power than anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by
other super powered people. They don’t start at the top. There
are always more powerful people who drive them to advance and
become the best.</p>
<p><strong>Enormous Appetite</strong><br>
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these
Manga heroes seem to be able to eat an absurd amount of food.
I guess they need the energy to fuel all those power ups. The
most extreme examples of this are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece,
and more recently Toriko, which is largely based around
eating.</p>
<p><strong>Purity<br>
</strong>This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga
heroes seem to be very pure hearted and noble even if they
seem brash on the outside. Plenty of American Supers are
noble, but there seems to be slight distinction in my mind.
American heroes are either totally super noble like Superman
or Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw
that they must overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their
Japanese counterparts flaws aren’t usually flaws at all. They
don’t get in the way of them being a hero, they are part of
their personality and may actually make them better at what
they do. They don’t seem to be in conflict with themselves.
Their apparent character flaws are a product of their
innocence instead of their corruption or weakness. Again this
may have a lot to do with their relatively young age.<strong></strong></p>
<p>I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I
felt compelled to TRY and quantify it, only that I think it is
interesting to see the kinds of fictional characters that our
very different cultures idolize. I enjoy superheroes on both
sides of this analysis, but I find that they access different
feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype is a more joyful
and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish
fulfillment, with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown
in.<strong></strong></p>
<p><strong>Update:</strong> Just responding to some comments on
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/pnps8/japanese_vs_american_hero_archetypes/?sort=new"
target="_blank">reddit</a> that there should be more
specific American comics references. I admit it is a bit one
sided in that regard, but I kind of figured if you’re reading
this in English you probably know more than you care too
already about popular American superheroes from the many
Hollywood movies of late. Maybe that was a mistake. This
wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some
observations I made that were interesting to me. I do have
more interest in Anime in recent years, but I’m definitely not
trying to convince anyone of anything. I don’t have an agenda,
I don’t think. I’m not trying to bend facts to suite an
argument, however I will fully concede to the possibility that
I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too
deeply in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at
this in general. In the end I’m just surprised people actually
wanted more information on this. I always assume people will
find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism taken.</p>
<p><strong>Update 2:</strong> Okay, I don’t think I have the
patience to expand this into a full essay with citations
equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor phrases to be
a BIT more specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a word.
So I will just list below the particular hero characters I was
referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe that
will clear this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make
applies entirely to each character, but hopefully they hold
generally true. Generalizations definitely aren’t the only
thing important in an analysis, but at least initially, they
can be the only way to see a pattern. Of course I know they
can also be used for evil. With great generalization come
great responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this
ever again.</p>
<p><strong> Japan</strong><br>
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the
next 5.<br>
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece<br>
Natsu – Fairy Tail<br>
Gon – HunterXHunter<br>
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise<br>
Toriko<br>
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to
exemplify an alternate world with different rules. Not as many
similarities to the others.</p>
<p><strong>USA</strong><br>
Superman<br>
Spiderman<br>
Ironman<br>
Captain America<br>
Thor<br>
Green Lantern<br>
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group</p>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>