<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">"Also there's a difference between a 160-square-foot house you build for yourself on land you and your friends own, and a 160-square-foot cell in an apartment complex that some developer builds as a means of extracting more money from the tenants."</span><br>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_extra">If you want to go out to the country and build a house on cheap land, that's your choice. You will be damaging the environment with your inevitable automobile use. If you want to live in the city, as many of us do, you will have to deal with the fact that many other people do as well.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">There are 2 ways to get more people onto a smaller piece of land-</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">1. Smaller apartments (I put tenants subdividing apartments in this category as well)</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">2. Replace 1950's style suburban houses with high rises.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra" style>These facts are completely independent of whatever system of government and economy.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">-Jehan<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 4:32 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net" target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
Yes, there are a few intentional communities from the 1960s that
succeeded. Twin Oaks is one. The Farm is another. There are
others, less well known.<br>
<br>
There are a bunch of books (Commitment and Community, Builders of
the Dawn, others), and there are also the websites for the
Federation of Intentional Communities, the Federation of Egalitarian
Communities, Communities magazine, and others.<br>
<br>
Why Americans buy huge houses: "because they can."<br>
<br>
Hong Kong & Tokyo apartments are quite a bit larger than those
prison-sized apts that are being developed in the USA now. Really:
the goal isn't sustainability or affordability, it's the 1/3
increase in rent per square foot, compared to 1- and 2-bedroom
apartments. Also there's a difference between a 160-square-foot
house you build for yourself on land you and your friends own, and a
160-square-foot cell in an apartment complex that some developer
builds as a means of extracting more money from the tenants. As in,
the difference between a nest that a mouse makes for itself, and a
standardized mouse-cage in a laboratory. It's all about autonomy
and control. <br>
<br>
Solutions: that would make an interesting discussion topic some
night, and/or we could open up a thread here. <br>
<br>
Ex-felons selling Christmas trees: Probably a carefully
self-selected group, with a common goal to avoid further trouble
with the law, and very strict internal rules. The risk of going
down the spiral back to prison is a powerful motivator. And the
difference between strict rules by voluntary consensus, vs. strict
rules by order of the Warden, makes all the difference.<br>
<br>
I wasn't proposing absolute socialism or bust. Only "socialism for
everyone or for no-one," rather than the status-quo of "socialism
for the rich, social darwinism for the rest of us." A little dose
of socialism, applied equally across the board, does wonders.
Compare quality of life in Northern Europe, to quality of life
here. <br>
<br>
The single largest predictor of violent social unrest, is the
disparity of income between the top and bottom in a society. A
little socialism buys a lot of peace. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
======<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-06-10-Mon 11:49 PM, Romy Ilano
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Are there any alternative living spaces from the 1960s that
experienced success? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps we could learn from their example. There was a big
coffee table being passed around about communes etc three or
four years ago-- forget the title </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Usually I find that people have attempted to tackle these
problems in the past. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also from the conversation it's not immediately clear to me
what the clearest solutions or motivations to the problems if
any would be. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For me I don't understand why Americans have a burning desire
to buy houses too large to live in, too expensive to buy, too
costly to maintain ... The single occupancy small rooms were
derided as being anti sex??? Yet to me those are as large as
what you would find in Hong Kong or Tokyo </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There's the Kearny street project which sells the Xmas trees
and rehabilitates Ex felons. They have shared living quarters
along with the self run businesses and I don't think there are
guards.. It's all regulated by the participants . </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do not agree with the zero sum solution of absolute
socialism or bust. It's like saying there should be no unions.
It's very extreme </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Romy Ilano</div>
<div>Founder of Snowyla</div>
<div><a href="http://www.snowyla.com" target="_blank">http://www.snowyla.com</a></div>
<div><a href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com" target="_blank">romy@snowyla.com</a></div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jun 10, 2013, at 19:50, GtwoG PublicOhOne <<a href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net" target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<br>
"Suddenly $5,000 is the new $3,000": Instant viral meme, good
one Andrew!<br>
<br>
And $30,000/year is the new $60,000/year, thanks to all those
H1B visas driving down wages. <br>
<br>
This is the interesting thing about "markets": <br>
<br>
When rents go sky-high, that's a "market" and the plutocracy
chants that the Holy Invisible Hand should reign supreme. But
when employers can't find people who'll work on farms for
$3.00/hour, or write code for $30,000/year, then it's time for
a little socialism for the plutocracy, by way of opening the
H1B floodgates. And that makes property owners happy too, so
it's a two-fer!<br>
<br>
"Jobs Americans won't do" is what economists call a "price
signal", which translates as "jobs Americans won't do AT THAT
PRICE." If the plutocracy was at all consistent (ha ha funny)
they wouldn't go running for socialistic interventions to
drive down labor costs, they'd suck it up and pay the market
price, whether that means paying farm workers $15/hour, or
paying coders $60,000/year. <br>
<br>
There's a reason it's more difficult to get into DSNY
(Department of Sanitation, City of New York) than it is to get
into Yale. It's spelled U-N-I-O-N.<br>
<br>
Socialism for all, or socialism for none!<br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
=====<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-06-10-Mon 4:59 PM, Andrew
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Lets be clear that no one is arguing there
should be less housing in SF. The argument is that current
housing in SF is too expensive and vacant. There isn't a
scarcity as much as a price fixing scheme going on. The
only purpose for building new units is for the developers
and landlords to get in on the scheme while it's hot,
hoping for the market to bounce back and suddenly $5,000
is the new $3,000 in SF and they are sitting on prime real
estate. In the meantime the units will remain vacant or
just rented out (or leased) to people moving in to the
City for work.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:32 PM,
GtwoG PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net" target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
That $5,000/month 2-BR apartment translates to
$60K/year for rent, which means that the owner isn't
even going to look at anyone with an income below
$180K, or a married couple with joint income of
$180K and perfect credit ratings. <br>
<br>
Re. "many levels of rich": the average millionaire
is closer to his/her gardener in terms of net worth,
than to the plutocrats (but most millionaires have
no clue about this). In any case, there are enough
people in the 1% to account for 95% of the spending
in the economy (keyword search "plutonomy" and look
for the report that was leaked from one of the major
banks on that topic), so the bottom 99% is almost
irrelevant ("supply and demand" for human lives,
again).<br>
<br>
Re. "at whatever level a developer wants to provide
more housing, I'll say YES DO IT..." Be careful
what you wish for...<br>
<br>
Re. "tall buildings..." (preceding email): When the
inevitable 7.0 on either the Hayward or San Andreas
occurs, even if the building remains standing (this
can't be taken for granted either, given the
problems with the imported steel in the Bay Bridge)
power & water will be out for weeks, possibly
months in some areas. Elevators and air
conditioning won't be working in those buildings.
So now you have highrises full of people, some of
whom are elderly, disabled, or have small kids, with
no food or water, and no sanitation. Asking
neighbors to carry food up the stairs might work,
but lugging water up ten or twenty flights is a
non-starter (a 2-day supply for one person for
drinking and cooking, is about 25 lbs.). <br>
<br>
Even earthquake-denialism doesn't help us, because
adding high-rises adds demand for water, sewer, and
parking, all the time. Assuming that most high-rise
residents won't have cars doesn't help much, because
some will, and those will still add up to more cars
than there is space to park them. Water and sewer
are the biggies, and any move toward highrise
development will require digging up streets and
installing new water & sewer mains, which
translate to higher costs either in rent or in
taxes.<br>
<br>
Albert Einstein was a pacifist, and Edward Teller
was a hawk. Both agreed that the exponential
function is the most dangerous math on Earth. <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
<br>
=====
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-06-10-Mon 3:41 PM, Sonja Trauss
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Yeah Jehan that's how I
understand it. <br>
<br>
</div>
Eddie's scenario though is that
rich_guy CAN'T move into the
nice new apt, because before he
gets there, some rich_guy_2
moves into the apt from Mountain
View, and <i>rich_guy_2 would
not have moved into SF if the
new apartments hadn't been
built</i>. <br>
<br>
</div>
This is a scenario, so we should
explore its antecedents and
consequences. <br>
<br>
</div>
My first response is - so what if
this happens. In this scenario rents
go neither up or down. I don't think
it's realistic to expect that all
new building will be taken up like
this, but, since I don't know the
future, it's worth imagining this
extreme outcome and asking, is it
bad? if it is bad, is it so bad that
we shouldn't take the risk of it
happening? I don't see it as bad.
Like I said before, it will have no
net affect on rent, so we lose
nothing, and there might be
ancillary benefits: my $13 jam
business might improve, or my $75/
hour personal yoga coach business.
Maybe I'm a social worker, and this
means there will be more money in
the city budget for my organization.
whatever. <br>
<br>
</div>
Next, more interestingly, let's
consider what could possibly cause
rich_guy_2's behavior. Usually people
move to be closer to work, to be
closer to some fun city center, to be
closer to family, they make the
decision and then they look for
housing. They do not hear of new
housing being built and say, on that
fact alone, 'I will now move!' <br>
<br>
</div>
If someone hears of new housing being
built, and he then says, 'I will now
move,' it is because he is (1) very
strict about only living in brand new
housing (not likely) or (2) RESPONDING
TO AN INCREASE IN SUPPLY AT HIS PRICE
POINT. <br>
<br>
</div>
Have you ever heard someone say "there are
no available apartments in SF"? Of course
he doesn't mean there are no available
apartments, of course there are
apartments: <a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/" target="_blank">http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/</a>
there's a $5000 2 bedroom at the top of
the list. What he means is "there are no
available apartments in SF at my price
point." So, this person, who wants to
spend say, $3000 for a nice 2 bedroom
lives somewhere else, and waits for the
supply of $3000 2 bedroom apartments to
increase. This is rich_guy_2. This person
is currently priced out of San Francisco.
Hard to believe, but true, there are many
levels of rich. You can be house shopping
and be priced out at almost any price
point. I'm sympathetic to people that are
priced out. I don't want to see anyone
priced out. I'm not going to discriminate
based on income high or low. No one should
be priced out. If you can pay $300/mo or
$3000 you should be able to find something
you think is reasonable in this town. The
supply of housing in SF is too small at
all but the highest price point. At
whatever level a developer wants to supply
more housing, I will say YES. DO IT. <br>
<br>
</div>
MOREOVER. If it's expensive to build,
developers will only be able to afford to
build high priced projects. One of the
things that makes building expensive is
fighting with neighbors. So its ironic (and
a little sad) to see people who want lower
priced housing doing things that make
building expensive. I think I said this in
another email, but if a smaller budget
developer wants to build a cheaper project,
but sees that even the very rich developer
can barely get his project finished because
he has to spend time and resources fighting
with neighbors, then the smaller developer
will be like forget it, I can't do this. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 10,
2013 at 1:46 PM, Jehan Tremback <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jehan.tremback@gmail.com" target="_blank">jehan.tremback@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">@Eddie- Sorry about the
eye! That was the default Ubuntu
avatar, and it somehow got synced to
my email when I ran Pidgin. So the eye
is actually open source! I'll get rid
of it though if you want.
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>I'll go over this briefly, but
there are better resources out
there. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let's say rich guy can afford
$3000 dollars a month and wants to
live in SF. So landlord charges him
$3000 for an apartment because it
isn't a closet. Since there is
nowhere else to live in SF, rich guy
pays this. New luxury building opens
across the street with really nice
new apartments for $3000 a month.
Rich guy decides to move, and
landlord puts apartment back on the
market for $3000. But because all of
the other rich guys are also living
in the new luxury building, landlord
finds no tenants. Next month,
landlord is forced to lower rent to
$2000 and 4 hackers move in. This is
how the market works.</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Jehan</div>
</font></span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 11:46
AM, Sonja Trauss <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sonja.trauss@gmail.com" target="_blank">sonja.trauss@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div>Ok so your position is
that the whole of the new
housing will be taken up by
people who don't currently
live in SF, want to, but
won't move into SF unless
new housing is built.
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>Can you describe what
it is about the new
housing that will make
people who already have
stable, adequate places to
live elsewhere move into
it, when they've already
decided theyre not
interested in living in
any of the currently
available sf housing? Does
this question make sense?
What's special about the
new housing? What would
make a person move to SF
Only If new housing is
built? What is the
scenario. I can think of
two. One silly and one not
silly. <span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
On Sunday, June 9, 2013,
Eddie Che wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div> Oy, greetings.
First of all that
Eye is really
hateful, let's tone<br>
that down a little!
I've been against
the eye because it
is oppressive<br>
so, chill. @Jehan.<br>
<br>
Building will
increase the
population in San
Francisco. Not house
the<br>
houseless and not
bring down rents.
These are upscale
(condos?)<br>
apartments, bringing
the added keyword of
gentrification.<br>
<br>
I like the Spain
example. Government
here (County, City,
State, and<br>
National) could give
land that is being
held by it, eg
around highway<br>
off-ramps or hills
or wherEVER to folks
who are disenchanted
with...<br>
corporate rule.<br>
<br>
"liberating land
from private control
and corporate
interests and for<br>
the common good of
all people."<br>
<br>
Can we hack that?<br>
EMCHE, in a tree.<br>
<br>
PS by the way,
surprising about
SF's vacant housing
units @<br>
<a href="https://www.baycitizen.org/blogs/pulse-of-the-bay/sf-leads-bay-area-vacant-homes/" target="_blank">https://www.baycitizen.org/blogs/pulse-of-the-bay/sf-leads-bay-area-vacant-homes/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Jun 8, 2013
at 6:41 PM, GtwoG
PublicOhOne <<a>g2g-public01@att.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Imagine a news
headline saying
"Good news for the
economy: food prices
are<br>
> up for the
third month in a
row!" Food-owners
would celebrate, and<br>
> foodless-rights
advocates would
protest, but nothing
would change unless
the<br>
> entire system
of food-speculation
was curbed.<br>
><br>
> Or imagine
this: Dateline:
Marinaleda, Spain.
Municipal
government GIVES<br>
> dispossessed
people the land and
building materials
to build their own<br>
> homes, and pays
contractors to
provide assistance
with the high-skill
parts<br>
> such as
plumbing. This is
REAL and it's
happening NOW.<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22701384" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22701384</a><br>
><br>
> "In the wake of
Spain's property
crash, hundreds of
thousands of homes
have<br>
> been
repossessed. While
one regional
government says it
will seize<br>
> repossessed
properties from the
banks, a little town
is doing away with<br>
> mortgages
altogether. ... In
Marinaleda,
residents like
42-year-old<br>
>
father-of-three,
David Gonzalez
Molina, are building
their own homes.<br>
><br>
> "The town hall
in this ... town an
hour-and-a-bit east
of Seville, has
given<br>
> David 190 sq m
(2,000 sq ft) of
land. ... The
bricks and mortar
are also a<br>
> gift... from
the regional
government of
Andalusia. ... Only
once his home is<br>
> finished will
he start paying 15
euros (£13) [approx.
$26] a month, to the<br>
> regional
government, to
refund the cost of
other building
materials. ...<br>
><br>
> "...[The
town's] Mayor Juan
Manuel Sanchez
Gordillo is known
for occupying<br>
> land belonging
to the wealthy in
Andalusia. ... Last
summer, he and his<br>
> left-wing union
comrades stole from
supermarkets and
handed out the food
to<br>
> the poor. "I
think it is possible
that a home should
be a right, and not
a<br>
> business, in
Europe", he argues.
Mayor Sanchez
Gordillo pours scorn
on<br>
>
"speculators"....<br>
><br>
> ---<br>
><br>
> Think outside
the box, and you
might end up
thinking like Mayor
Sanchez<br>
> Gordillo.<br>
><br>
> What happens
when home prices and
rents keep
increasing while
average income<br>
> levels have
barely budged since
1974?<br>
><br>
> What happens to
the lives of people,
when the health of
an economy in large<br>
> part depends on
relentless increase
in the price of a
vital necessity that<br>
> is also a fixed
resource, such as
the square footage
in which to eat,
sleep,<br>
> and wash?<br>
><br>
> Meanwhile
developers are
building "luxury"
apartments, but the
number of<br>
> "affordable"
units isn't
specified and always
turns out to be less
than<br>
> first claimed.
How is it that
anyone has a "right"
to luxury, at the<br>
> expense of
others' poverty and
homelessness?<br>
><br>
> At root, this
isn't a race issue
of black and white,
though the guardians
of<br>
> privilege
benefit mightily
when it's framed
that way, and people
who have<br>
> common cause
are divided against
each other. At
root, it's a class
issue of<br>
> green and red.<br>
><br>
> Land
speculation is a
broken machine
running an obsolete
operating system,<br>
> that's begging
to get "rooted."<br>
><br>
> -G<br>
><br>
><br>
> =====<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 13-06-08-Sat
3:06 PM, Sonja
Trauss wrote:<br>
><br>
> I know, it's so
outrageous. This
line, "The notion of
smart growth — also<br>
> referred to as
urban infill — has
been around for
years, embraced by a<br>
> certain type of
environmentalist,
particularly those
concerned with<br>
> protecting open
space."<br>
><br>
> Yeah, the type
of environmentalist
that is an
environmentalist -
what is<br>
> this supposed
to mean!<br>
><br>
> Also I guess (I
hope) these
progressives don't
realize that in
opposing<br>
> development in
Bayview, they are
contributing to
keeping blacks
overall<br>
> poorer than
whites.<br>
><br>
> Putting renters
aside for a minute,
let's consider
similarly situated
black<br>
> and white
homeowners, in
similar income black
and white
neighborhoods. If<br>
> these
neighborhoods are in
a city that is
growing in wealth
and population<br>
> (like san
francisco) both
homeowners should be
able to look forward
to their<br>
> house values
increasing, right?
NO. House values at
first only increase
in<br>
> the white
neighborhoods,
because the new
residents, moving to
SF from all<br>
</div>
</div>
<div> > --<br>
Eddie Miller, BU '10<br>
<a>eddiemill@gmail.com</a> |
<a href="tel:440-935-5434" value="+14409355434" target="_blank">440-935-5434</a><br>
<a href="http://Facebook.com/eddiemill" target="_blank">Facebook.com/eddiemill</a> | <a href="http://Twitter.com/eddiemill" target="_blank">Twitter.com/eddiemill</a><br>
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</blockquote>
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<div>Andrew Lowe</div>
<div>Cell: <a href="tel:831-332-2507" value="+18313322507" target="_blank">831-332-2507</a></div>
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