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    <br>
    Hi Jehan-<br>
    <br>
    Area code 925 doesn't count as rural in my book, that's for sure;-)<br>
    <br>
    Until we get down to specific cases and examples there's no way to
    make effective comparisons aside from the creative use of rhetoric
    both flowery and fierce.<br>
    <br>
    When I say "rural" I'm not talking about cubicle-dwelling commuters,
    but about sustainable communities of friends, e.g. ten people buy a
    piece of land, build on a small part of it, subsistence-farm another
    part of it, and leave most of it wild.  They have telecommuter jobs,
    or jobs in the local area (which they may get to via bicycle or
    home-brewed electric vehicle), and share transport on days when they
    have to go into town.  <br>
    <br>
    Of course the commuter who drives from 925 to 415 daily, is an
    ecological disaster.  Not only that, but the extreme high
    temperatures in parts of 925 lead to a huge air conditioning load on
    the power grid.  I'm surprised you didn't mention that part. <br>
    <br>
    Speaking of electricity:  From one of my clients that's a major
    regional solar contractor, I discovered that the average household
    electricity consumption in the Bay Area is in the range of about
    2,000 - 3,000 KWH/month for four people, or about 500 - 750
    KWH/month/person.  I nearly shat a brick when I heard that.  And
    that's for personal use only, not counting the electricity used in
    their offices to which they commute. <br>
    <br>
    My monthly electricity consumption is about 130 - 150 KWH/month for
    personal use, and another 30 KWH/month for work-related equipment
    that would otherwise be "hidden" if it occurred at an office
    elsewhere.  In my best month I got it down to about 130 total, which
    is about 100 for personal and 30 for work.  In a recent experiment
    to see how high my power consumption gets if I leave lights on etc.,
    it came in around 250 KWH for the month: which is still _half_ of
    per-person average for the area.  I couldn't get it up to 500
    KWH/month unless I left all the lights on 24/7 and bought a
    big-screen TV or something. <br>
    <br>
    More later...<br>
    <br>
    -G.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    ======<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13-06-11-Tue 6:19 PM, Jehan Tremback
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABG_PfRAgAOz6yoPizKYCPRzk5YEO+JmJhGTyM12_z0gU_dW6A@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Are you telling us that high density urban housing
        is not more efficient than sprawled out rural housing? Keep in
        mind that the vast majority of people will not be subsistence
        farming. Also, as it relates to the Bay, people are not going to
        be going back to the land because of SF rent. They will move to
        Walnut Creek and sit in traffic for 2 hours a day, burning gas.
        <div>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div style="">-Jehan</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:01 PM, GtwoG
          PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net" target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
              Hi Jehan;-)<br>
              <br>
              Ahh, the good ol' city mouse vs. country mouse arguement. 
              If we avoid ad-homs this should be fun.<br>
              <br>
              First of all, a-priori generalizations are a-priori
              invalid.  Individual ecological impact depends on
              lifestyle and employment, which vary widely for both city
              and country.  <br>
              <br>
              One of the largest impacts is commuting by automobile.  A
              country mouse who's a telecommuter will have a zero
              commuting impact.  A city mouse whose workplace isn't
              served by public transport will most likely end up driving
              to work.  That comparison, in and of itself, falsifies
              your generalization.  <br>
              <br>
              Are you willing to argue publicly that all the city mice
              whose places of employment aren't served by public
              transport, or who work late/overnight shift and live or
              work in places where taking public transport is overtly
              dangerous, should quit their jobs and seek employment
              elsewhere?  <br>
              <br>
              Re. smaller apartments:  Can you operationalize your
              variables?  How small?  Have you ever drawn a floorplan
              for one?  I've drawn plenty of floorplans, down to 160
              square feet, and I'll gladly show them to you any time we
              have a chance to get together.  <br>
              <br>
              Re. highrises:  Can you operationalize those variables
              too?  How does the water get in, how does the sewage get
              out, and where does the money come from to rip &
              replace the existing underground infrastructure for that
              purpose?  And what do you do with a 10- or 20- story
              building full of people, after the expected 7.0+ on the
              Hayward or San Andreas takes out the power grid, water
              mains, and sewer mains, for a period of weeks to months? 
              (We'll assume the building remains standing, though that
              can't be taken for granted.)<br>
              <br>
              Also about highrises, what do the children do at
              playtime?, where does the food come from to feed all those
              people in the high-density highrises?, and how does the
              food get there?  Who has ownership?  Who has control?  Who
              makes the rules?   <br>
              <br>
              Sweeping generalizations are easy; designing in detail and
              walking the talk isn't.  <br>
              <br>
              In the next round I'll describe what I do about water,
              electricity, gasoline, and refuse.<br>
              <br>
              Cheers-  <br>
              <br>
              -G.<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              =====
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <div>On 13-06-11-Tue 9:34 AM, Jehan Tremback wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr"><span
                        style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">"Also

                        there's a difference between a 160-square-foot
                        house you build for yourself on land you and
                        your friends own, and a 160-square-foot cell in
                        an apartment complex that some developer builds
                        as a means of extracting more money from the
                        tenants."</span><br>
                      <div><span
                          style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
                        </span></div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra">If you want to go out to
                        the country and build a house on cheap land,
                        that's your choice. You will be damaging the
                        environment with your inevitable automobile use.
                        If you want to live in the city, as many of us
                        do, you will have to deal with the fact that
                        many other people do as well.</div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra">There are 2 ways to get
                        more people onto a smaller piece of land-</div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra">1. Smaller apartments (I
                        put tenants subdividing apartments in this
                        category as well)</div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra">2. Replace 1950's style
                        suburban houses with high rises.</div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra">These facts are
                        completely independent of whatever system of
                        government and economy.</div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra">-Jehan<br>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at
                          4:32 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net"
                              target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                            style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                            #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                              Yes, there are a few intentional
                              communities from the 1960s that
                              succeeded.  Twin Oaks is one.  The Farm is
                              another.  There are others, less well
                              known.<br>
                              <br>
                              There are a bunch of books (Commitment and
                              Community, Builders of the Dawn, others),
                              and there are also the websites for the
                              Federation of Intentional Communities, the
                              Federation of Egalitarian Communities,
                              Communities magazine, and others.<br>
                              <br>
                              Why Americans buy huge houses:  "because
                              they can."<br>
                              <br>
                              Hong Kong & Tokyo apartments are quite
                              a bit larger than those prison-sized apts
                              that are being developed in the USA now. 
                              Really: the goal isn't sustainability or
                              affordability, it's the 1/3 increase in
                              rent per square foot, compared to 1- and
                              2-bedroom apartments.  Also there's a
                              difference between a 160-square-foot house
                              you build for yourself on land you and
                              your friends own, and a 160-square-foot
                              cell in an apartment complex that some
                              developer builds as a means of extracting
                              more money from the tenants.  As in, the
                              difference between a nest that a mouse
                              makes for itself, and a standardized
                              mouse-cage in a laboratory.  It's all
                              about autonomy and control.  <br>
                              <br>
                              Solutions: that would make an interesting
                              discussion topic some night, and/or we
                              could open up a thread here.  <br>
                              <br>
                              Ex-felons selling Christmas trees: 
                              Probably a carefully self-selected group,
                              with a common goal to avoid further
                              trouble with the law, and very strict
                              internal rules.  The risk of going down
                              the spiral back to prison is a powerful
                              motivator.  And the difference between
                              strict rules by voluntary consensus, vs.
                              strict rules by order of the Warden, makes
                              all the difference.<br>
                              <br>
                              I wasn't proposing absolute socialism or
                              bust.  Only "socialism for everyone or for
                              no-one," rather than the status-quo of
                              "socialism for the rich, social darwinism
                              for the rest of us."  A little dose of
                              socialism, applied equally across the
                              board, does wonders.  Compare quality of
                              life in Northern Europe, to quality of
                              life here.  <br>
                              <br>
                              The single largest predictor of violent
                              social unrest, is the disparity of income
                              between the top and bottom in a society. 
                              A little socialism buys a lot of peace.  <br>
                              <br>
                              -G.<br>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              ======
                              <div>
                                <div><br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  <div>On 13-06-10-Mon 11:49 PM, Romy
                                    Ilano wrote:<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite">
                                    <div>Are there any alternative
                                      living spaces from the 1960s that
                                      experienced success? </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Perhaps we could learn from
                                      their example. There was a big
                                      coffee table being passed around
                                      about communes etc three or four
                                      years ago-- forget the title </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Usually I find that people have
                                      attempted to tackle these problems
                                      in the past. </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Also from the conversation it's
                                      not immediately clear to me what
                                      the clearest solutions or
                                      motivations to the problems  if
                                      any would be. </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>For me I don't understand why
                                      Americans have a burning desire to
                                      buy houses too large to live in,
                                      too expensive to buy, too costly
                                      to maintain ... The single
                                      occupancy small rooms were derided
                                      as being anti sex??? Yet to me
                                      those are as large as what you
                                      would find in Hong Kong or Tokyo </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>There's the Kearny street
                                      project which sells the Xmas trees
                                      and rehabilitates Ex felons. They
                                      have shared living quarters along
                                      with the self run businesses and I
                                      don't think there are guards..
                                      It's all regulated by the
                                      participants . </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>I do not agree with the zero
                                      sum solution of absolute socialism
                                      or bust. It's like saying there
                                      should be no unions. It's very
                                      extreme </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                      <div>---</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Romy Ilano</div>
                                      <div>Founder of Snowyla</div>
                                      <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="http://www.snowyla.com"
                                          target="_blank">http://www.snowyla.com</a></div>
                                      <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:romy@snowyla.com"
                                          target="_blank">romy@snowyla.com</a></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                      On Jun 10, 2013, at 19:50, GtwoG
                                      PublicOhOne <<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net"
                                        target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>>

                                      wrote:<br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <div> <br>
                                        "Suddenly $5,000 is the new
                                        $3,000":  Instant viral meme,
                                        good one Andrew!<br>
                                        <br>
                                        And $30,000/year is the new
                                        $60,000/year, thanks to all
                                        those H1B visas driving down
                                        wages. <br>
                                        <br>
                                        This is the interesting thing
                                        about "markets":  <br>
                                        <br>
                                        When rents go sky-high, that's a
                                        "market" and the plutocracy
                                        chants that the Holy Invisible
                                        Hand should reign supreme.  But
                                        when employers can't find people
                                        who'll work on farms for
                                        $3.00/hour, or write code for
                                        $30,000/year, then it's time for
                                        a little socialism for the
                                        plutocracy, by way of opening
                                        the H1B floodgates.  And that
                                        makes property owners happy too,
                                        so it's a two-fer!<br>
                                        <br>
                                        "Jobs Americans won't do" is
                                        what economists call a "price
                                        signal", which translates as
                                        "jobs Americans won't do AT THAT
                                        PRICE."  If the plutocracy was
                                        at all consistent (ha ha funny)
                                        they wouldn't go running for
                                        socialistic interventions to
                                        drive down labor costs, they'd
                                        suck it up and pay the market
                                        price, whether that means paying
                                        farm workers $15/hour, or paying
                                        coders $60,000/year.  <br>
                                        <br>
                                        There's a reason it's more
                                        difficult to get into DSNY
                                        (Department of Sanitation, City
                                        of New York) than it is to get
                                        into Yale.  It's spelled
                                        U-N-I-O-N.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Socialism for all, or socialism
                                        for none!<br>
                                        <br>
                                        -G.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <br>
                                        =====<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div>On 13-06-10-Mon 4:59 PM,
                                          Andrew wrote:<br>
                                        </div>
                                        <blockquote type="cite">
                                          <div dir="ltr">Lets be clear
                                            that no one is arguing there
                                            should be less housing in
                                            SF. The argument is that
                                            current housing in SF is too
                                            expensive and vacant. There
                                            isn't a scarcity as much as
                                            a price fixing scheme going
                                            on. The only purpose for
                                            building new units is for
                                            the developers and landlords
                                            to get in on the scheme
                                            while it's hot, hoping for
                                            the market to bounce back
                                            and suddenly $5,000 is the
                                            new $3,000 in SF and they
                                            are sitting on prime real
                                            estate. In the meantime the
                                            units will remain vacant or
                                            just rented out (or leased)
                                            to people moving in to the
                                            City for work.<br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                            <br>
                                            <div class="gmail_quote">On
                                              Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:32
                                              PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <span
                                                dir="ltr"><<a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net" target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
                                              wrote:<br>
                                              <blockquote
                                                class="gmail_quote"
                                                style="margin:0 0 0
                                                .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                #ccc
                                                solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                                  text="#000000"> <br>
                                                  That $5,000/month 2-BR
                                                  apartment translates
                                                  to $60K/year for rent,
                                                  which means that the
                                                  owner isn't even going
                                                  to look at anyone with
                                                  an income below $180K,
                                                  or a married couple
                                                  with joint income of
                                                  $180K and perfect
                                                  credit ratings.  <br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Re. "many levels of
                                                  rich": the average
                                                  millionaire is closer
                                                  to his/her gardener in
                                                  terms of net worth,
                                                  than to the plutocrats
                                                  (but most millionaires
                                                  have no clue about
                                                  this).  In any case,
                                                  there are enough
                                                  people in the 1% to
                                                  account for 95% of the
                                                  spending in the
                                                  economy (keyword
                                                  search "plutonomy" and
                                                  look for the report
                                                  that was leaked from
                                                  one of the major banks
                                                  on that topic), so the
                                                  bottom 99% is almost
                                                  irrelevant ("supply
                                                  and demand" for human
                                                  lives, again).<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Re. "at whatever level
                                                  a developer wants to
                                                  provide more housing,
                                                  I'll say YES DO
                                                  IT..."  Be careful
                                                  what you wish for...<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Re. "tall
                                                  buildings..."
                                                  (preceding email): 
                                                  When the inevitable
                                                  7.0 on either the
                                                  Hayward or San Andreas
                                                  occurs, even if the
                                                  building remains
                                                  standing (this can't
                                                  be taken for granted
                                                  either, given the
                                                  problems with the
                                                  imported steel in the
                                                  Bay Bridge) power
                                                  & water will be
                                                  out for weeks,
                                                  possibly months in
                                                  some areas.  Elevators
                                                  and air conditioning
                                                  won't be working in
                                                  those buildings.  So
                                                  now you have highrises
                                                  full of people, some
                                                  of whom are elderly,
                                                  disabled, or have
                                                  small kids, with no
                                                  food or water, and no
                                                  sanitation.  Asking
                                                  neighbors to carry
                                                  food up the stairs
                                                  might work, but
                                                  lugging water up ten
                                                  or twenty flights is a
                                                  non-starter (a 2-day
                                                  supply for one person
                                                  for drinking and
                                                  cooking, is about 25
                                                  lbs.).  <br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Even
                                                  earthquake-denialism
                                                  doesn't help us,
                                                  because adding
                                                  high-rises adds demand
                                                  for water, sewer, and
                                                  parking, all the
                                                  time.  Assuming that
                                                  most high-rise
                                                  residents won't have
                                                  cars doesn't help
                                                  much, because some
                                                  will, and those will
                                                  still add up to more
                                                  cars than there is
                                                  space to park them. 
                                                  Water and sewer are
                                                  the biggies, and any
                                                  move toward highrise
                                                  development will
                                                  require digging up
                                                  streets and installing
                                                  new water & sewer
                                                  mains, which translate
                                                  to higher costs either
                                                  in rent or in taxes.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Albert Einstein was a
                                                  pacifist, and Edward
                                                  Teller was a hawk. 
                                                  Both agreed that the
                                                  exponential function
                                                  is the most dangerous
                                                  math on Earth.  <br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  -G.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  =====
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <div>On
                                                        13-06-10-Mon
                                                        3:41 PM, Sonja
                                                        Trauss wrote:<br>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <blockquote
                                                        type="cite">
                                                        <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Yeah
                                                          Jehan that's
                                                          how I
                                                          understand it.
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          Eddie's
                                                          scenario
                                                          though is that
                                                          rich_guy CAN'T
                                                          move into the
                                                          nice new apt,
                                                          because before
                                                          he gets there,
                                                          some
                                                          rich_guy_2
                                                          moves into the
                                                          apt from
                                                          Mountain View,
                                                          and <i>rich_guy_2

                                                          would not have
                                                          moved into SF
                                                          if the new
                                                          apartments
                                                          hadn't been
                                                          built</i>. <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          This is a
                                                          scenario, so
                                                          we should
                                                          explore its
                                                          antecedents
                                                          and
                                                          consequences.
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          My first
                                                          response is -
                                                          so what if
                                                          this happens.
                                                          In this
                                                          scenario rents
                                                          go neither up
                                                          or down. I
                                                          don't think
                                                          it's realistic
                                                          to expect that
                                                          all new
                                                          building will
                                                          be taken up
                                                          like this,
                                                          but, since I
                                                          don't know the
                                                          future, it's
                                                          worth
                                                          imagining this
                                                          extreme
                                                          outcome and
                                                          asking, is it
                                                          bad? if it is
                                                          bad, is it so
                                                          bad that we
                                                          shouldn't take
                                                          the risk of it
                                                          happening? I
                                                          don't see it
                                                          as bad. Like I
                                                          said before,
                                                          it will have
                                                          no net affect
                                                          on rent, so we
                                                          lose nothing,
                                                          and there
                                                          might be
                                                          ancillary
                                                          benefits: my
                                                          $13 jam
                                                          business might
                                                          improve, or my
                                                          $75/ hour
                                                          personal yoga
                                                          coach
                                                          business.
                                                          Maybe I'm a
                                                          social worker,
                                                          and this means
                                                          there will be
                                                          more money in
                                                          the city
                                                          budget for my
                                                          organization.
                                                          whatever. <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          Next, more
                                                          interestingly,
                                                          let's consider
                                                          what could
                                                          possibly cause
                                                          rich_guy_2's
                                                          behavior.
                                                          Usually people
                                                          move to be
                                                          closer to
                                                          work, to be
                                                          closer to some
                                                          fun city
                                                          center, to be
                                                          closer to
                                                          family, they
                                                          make the
                                                          decision and
                                                          then they look
                                                          for housing.
                                                          They do not
                                                          hear of new
                                                          housing being
                                                          built and say,
                                                          on that fact
                                                          alone, 'I will
                                                          now move!' <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          If someone
                                                          hears of new
                                                          housing being
                                                          built, and he
                                                          then says, 'I
                                                          will now
                                                          move,' it is
                                                          because he is
                                                          (1) very
                                                          strict about
                                                          only living in
                                                          brand new
                                                          housing (not
                                                          likely) or (2)
                                                          RESPONDING TO
                                                          AN INCREASE IN
                                                          SUPPLY AT HIS
                                                          PRICE POINT. <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          Have you ever
                                                          heard someone
                                                          say "there are
                                                          no available
                                                          apartments in
                                                          SF"? Of course
                                                          he doesn't
                                                          mean there are
                                                          no available
                                                          apartments, of
                                                          course there
                                                          are
                                                          apartments: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/"
                                                          target="_blank">http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/</a>
                                                          there's a
                                                          $5000 2
                                                          bedroom at the
                                                          top of the
                                                          list. What he
                                                          means is
                                                          "there are no
                                                          available
                                                          apartments in
                                                          SF at my price
                                                          point." So,
                                                          this person,
                                                          who wants to
                                                          spend say,
                                                          $3000 for a
                                                          nice 2 bedroom
                                                          lives
                                                          somewhere
                                                          else, and
                                                          waits for the
                                                          supply of
                                                          $3000 2
                                                          bedroom
                                                          apartments to
                                                          increase. This
                                                          is rich_guy_2.
                                                          This person is
                                                          currently
                                                          priced out of
                                                          San Francisco.
                                                          Hard to
                                                          believe, but
                                                          true, there
                                                          are many
                                                          levels of
                                                          rich. You can
                                                          be house
                                                          shopping and
                                                          be priced out
                                                          at almost any
                                                          price point.
                                                          I'm
                                                          sympathetic to
                                                          people that
                                                          are priced
                                                          out. I don't
                                                          want to see
                                                          anyone priced
                                                          out. I'm not
                                                          going to
                                                          discriminate
                                                          based on
                                                          income high or
                                                          low. No one
                                                          should be
                                                          priced out. If
                                                          you can pay
                                                          $300/mo or
                                                          $3000 you
                                                          should be able
                                                          to find
                                                          something you
                                                          think is
                                                          reasonable in
                                                          this town. The
                                                          supply of
                                                          housing in SF
                                                          is too small
                                                          at all but the
                                                          highest price
                                                          point. At
                                                          whatever level
                                                          a developer
                                                          wants to
                                                          supply more
                                                          housing, I
                                                          will say YES.
                                                          DO IT. <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          MOREOVER. If
                                                          it's expensive
                                                          to build,
                                                          developers
                                                          will only be
                                                          able to afford
                                                          to build high
                                                          priced
                                                          projects. One
                                                          of the things
                                                          that makes
                                                          building
                                                          expensive is
                                                          fighting with
                                                          neighbors. So
                                                          its ironic
                                                          (and a little
                                                          sad) to see
                                                          people who
                                                          want lower
                                                          priced housing
                                                          doing things
                                                          that make
                                                          building
                                                          expensive. I
                                                          think I said
                                                          this in
                                                          another email,
                                                          but if a
                                                          smaller budget
                                                          developer
                                                          wants to build
                                                          a cheaper
                                                          project, but
                                                          sees that even
                                                          the very rich
                                                          developer can
                                                          barely get his
                                                          project
                                                          finished
                                                          because he has
                                                          to spend time
                                                          and resources
                                                          fighting with
                                                          neighbors,
                                                          then the
                                                          smaller
                                                          developer will
                                                          be like forget
                                                          it, I can't do
                                                          this. <br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div
                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_quote">On

                                                          Mon, Jun 10,
                                                          2013 at 1:46
                                                          PM, Jehan
                                                          Tremback <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jehan.tremback@gmail.com"
                                                          target="_blank">jehan.tremback@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
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                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div dir="ltr">@Eddie-

                                                          Sorry about
                                                          the eye! That
                                                          was the
                                                          default Ubuntu
                                                          avatar, and it
                                                          somehow got
                                                          synced to my
                                                          email when I
                                                          ran Pidgin. So
                                                          the eye is
                                                          actually open
                                                          source! I'll
                                                          get rid of it
                                                          though if you
                                                          want.
                                                          <div> <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>I'll go
                                                          over this
                                                          briefly, but
                                                          there are
                                                          better
                                                          resources out
                                                          there. </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Let's say
                                                          rich guy can
                                                          afford $3000
                                                          dollars a
                                                          month and
                                                          wants to live
                                                          in SF. So
                                                          landlord
                                                          charges him
                                                          $3000 for an
                                                          apartment
                                                          because it
                                                          isn't a
                                                          closet. Since
                                                          there is
                                                          nowhere else
                                                          to live in SF,
                                                          rich guy pays
                                                          this. New
                                                          luxury
                                                          building opens
                                                          across the
                                                          street with
                                                          really nice
                                                          new apartments
                                                          for $3000 a
                                                          month. Rich
                                                          guy decides to
                                                          move, and
                                                          landlord puts
                                                          apartment back
                                                          on the market
                                                          for $3000. But
                                                          because all of
                                                          the other rich
                                                          guys are also
                                                          living in the
                                                          new luxury
                                                          building,
                                                          landlord finds
                                                          no tenants.
                                                          Next month,
                                                          landlord is
                                                          forced to
                                                          lower rent to
                                                          $2000 and 4
                                                          hackers move
                                                          in. This is
                                                          how the market
                                                          works.</div>
                                                          <span><font
                                                          color="#888888">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-Jehan</div>
                                                          </font></span></div>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_quote">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>On Mon,
                                                          Jun 10, 2013
                                                          at 11:46 AM,
                                                          Sonja Trauss <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sonja.trauss@gmail.com"
                                                          target="_blank">sonja.trauss@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
                                                          0 0
                                                          .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Ok so
                                                          your position
                                                          is that the
                                                          whole of the
                                                          new housing
                                                          will be taken
                                                          up by people
                                                          who don't
                                                          currently live
                                                          in SF, want
                                                          to, but won't
                                                          move into SF
                                                          unless new
                                                          housing is
                                                          built. 
                                                          <div> <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Can you
                                                          describe what
                                                          it is about
                                                          the new
                                                          housing that
                                                          will make
                                                          people who
                                                          already have
                                                          stable,
                                                          adequate
                                                          places to live
                                                          elsewhere move
                                                          into it, when
                                                          they've
                                                          already
                                                          decided theyre
                                                          not interested
                                                          in living in
                                                          any of the
                                                          currently
                                                          available sf
                                                          housing? Does
                                                          this question
                                                          make sense?
                                                          What's special
                                                          about the new
                                                          housing? What
                                                          would make a
                                                          person move to
                                                          SF Only If new
                                                          housing is
                                                          built? What is
                                                          the scenario.
                                                          I can think of
                                                          two. One silly
                                                          and one not
                                                          silly. <span></span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          On Sunday,
                                                          June 9, 2013,
                                                          Eddie Che
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
                                                          0 0
                                                          .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div> Oy,
                                                          greetings.
                                                          First of all
                                                          that Eye is
                                                          really
                                                          hateful, let's
                                                          tone<br>
                                                          that down a
                                                          little! I've
                                                          been against
                                                          the eye
                                                          because it is
                                                          oppressive<br>
                                                          so, chill.
                                                          @Jehan.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Building will
                                                          increase the
                                                          population in
                                                          San Francisco.
                                                          Not house the<br>
                                                          houseless and
                                                          not bring down
                                                          rents. These
                                                          are upscale
                                                          (condos?)<br>
                                                          apartments,
                                                          bringing the
                                                          added keyword
                                                          of
                                                          gentrification.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I like the
                                                          Spain example.
                                                          Government
                                                          here (County,
                                                          City, State,
                                                          and<br>
                                                          National)
                                                          could give
                                                          land that is
                                                          being held by
                                                          it, eg around
                                                          highway<br>
                                                          off-ramps or
                                                          hills or
                                                          wherEVER to
                                                          folks who are
                                                          disenchanted
                                                          with...<br>
                                                          corporate
                                                          rule.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          "liberating
                                                          land from
                                                          private
                                                          control and
                                                          corporate
                                                          interests and
                                                          for<br>
                                                          the common
                                                          good of all
                                                          people."<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Can we hack
                                                          that?<br>
                                                          EMCHE, in a
                                                          tree.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          PS by the way,
                                                          surprising
                                                          about SF's
                                                          vacant housing
                                                          units @<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.baycitizen.org/blogs/pulse-of-the-bay/sf-leads-bay-area-vacant-homes/"
target="_blank">https://www.baycitizen.org/blogs/pulse-of-the-bay/sf-leads-bay-area-vacant-homes/</a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On Sat, Jun 8,
                                                          2013 at 6:41
                                                          PM, GtwoG
                                                          PublicOhOne
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">g2g-public01@att.net</a>>




                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Imagine a
                                                          news headline
                                                          saying "Good
                                                          news for the
                                                          economy: food
                                                          prices are<br>
                                                          > up for
                                                          the third
                                                          month in a
                                                          row!"
                                                           Food-owners
                                                          would
                                                          celebrate, and<br>
                                                          >
                                                          foodless-rights
                                                          advocates
                                                          would protest,
                                                          but nothing
                                                          would change
                                                          unless the<br>
                                                          > entire
                                                          system of
                                                          food-speculation
                                                          was curbed.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Or
                                                          imagine this:
                                                           Dateline:
                                                          Marinaleda,
                                                          Spain.
                                                           Municipal
                                                          government
                                                          GIVES<br>
                                                          >
                                                          dispossessed
                                                          people the
                                                          land and
                                                          building
                                                          materials to
                                                          build their
                                                          own<br>
                                                          > homes,
                                                          and pays
                                                          contractors to
                                                          provide
                                                          assistance
                                                          with the
                                                          high-skill
                                                          parts<br>
                                                          > such as
                                                          plumbing.
                                                           This is REAL
                                                          and it's
                                                          happening NOW.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22701384" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22701384</a><br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > "In the
                                                          wake of
                                                          Spain's
                                                          property
                                                          crash,
                                                          hundreds of
                                                          thousands of
                                                          homes have<br>
                                                          > been
                                                          repossessed.
                                                          While one
                                                          regional
                                                          government
                                                          says it will
                                                          seize<br>
                                                          >
                                                          repossessed
                                                          properties
                                                          from the
                                                          banks, a
                                                          little town is
                                                          doing away
                                                          with<br>
                                                          > mortgages
                                                          altogether.
                                                          ...  In
                                                          Marinaleda,
                                                          residents like
                                                          42-year-old<br>
                                                          >
                                                          father-of-three,
                                                          David Gonzalez
                                                          Molina, are
                                                          building their
                                                          own homes.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > "The town
                                                          hall in this
                                                          ... town an
                                                          hour-and-a-bit
                                                          east of
                                                          Seville, has
                                                          given<br>
                                                          > David 190
                                                          sq m (2,000 sq
                                                          ft) of land.
                                                          ...  The
                                                          bricks and
                                                          mortar are
                                                          also a<br>
                                                          > gift...
                                                          from the
                                                          regional
                                                          government of
                                                          Andalusia. ...
                                                          Only once his
                                                          home is<br>
                                                          > finished
                                                          will he start
                                                          paying 15
                                                          euros (£13)
                                                          [approx. $26]
                                                          a month, to
                                                          the<br>
                                                          > regional
                                                          government, to
                                                          refund the
                                                          cost of other
                                                          building
                                                          materials. ...<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > "...[The
                                                          town's] Mayor
                                                          Juan Manuel
                                                          Sanchez
                                                          Gordillo is
                                                          known for
                                                          occupying<br>
                                                          > land
                                                          belonging to
                                                          the wealthy in
                                                          Andalusia. ...
                                                          Last summer,
                                                          he and his<br>
                                                          > left-wing
                                                          union comrades
                                                          stole from
                                                          supermarkets
                                                          and handed out
                                                          the food to<br>
                                                          > the poor.
                                                           "I think it
                                                          is possible
                                                          that a home
                                                          should be a
                                                          right, and not
                                                          a<br>
                                                          > business,
                                                          in Europe", he
                                                          argues. Mayor
                                                          Sanchez
                                                          Gordillo pours
                                                          scorn on<br>
                                                          >
                                                          "speculators"....<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > ---<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Think
                                                          outside the
                                                          box, and you
                                                          might end up
                                                          thinking like
                                                          Mayor Sanchez<br>
                                                          > Gordillo.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > What
                                                          happens when
                                                          home prices
                                                          and rents keep
                                                          increasing
                                                          while average
                                                          income<br>
                                                          > levels
                                                          have barely
                                                          budged since
                                                          1974?<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > What
                                                          happens to the
                                                          lives of
                                                          people, when
                                                          the health of
                                                          an economy in
                                                          large<br>
                                                          > part
                                                          depends on
                                                          relentless
                                                          increase in
                                                          the price of a
                                                          vital
                                                          necessity that<br>
                                                          > is also a
                                                          fixed
                                                          resource, such
                                                          as the square
                                                          footage in
                                                          which to eat,
                                                          sleep,<br>
                                                          > and wash?<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Meanwhile
                                                          developers are
                                                          building
                                                          "luxury"
                                                          apartments,
                                                          but the number
                                                          of<br>
                                                          >
                                                          "affordable"
                                                          units isn't
                                                          specified and
                                                          always turns
                                                          out to be less
                                                          than<br>
                                                          > first
                                                          claimed.  How
                                                          is it that
                                                          anyone has a
                                                          "right" to
                                                          luxury, at the<br>
                                                          > expense
                                                          of others'
                                                          poverty and
                                                          homelessness?<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > At root,
                                                          this isn't a
                                                          race issue of
                                                          black and
                                                          white, though
                                                          the guardians
                                                          of<br>
                                                          > privilege
                                                          benefit
                                                          mightily when
                                                          it's framed
                                                          that way, and
                                                          people who
                                                          have<br>
                                                          > common
                                                          cause are
                                                          divided
                                                          against each
                                                          other.  At
                                                          root, it's a
                                                          class issue of<br>
                                                          > green and
                                                          red.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Land
                                                          speculation is
                                                          a broken
                                                          machine
                                                          running an
                                                          obsolete
                                                          operating
                                                          system,<br>
                                                          > that's
                                                          begging to get
                                                          "rooted."<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > -G<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > =====<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > On
                                                          13-06-08-Sat
                                                          3:06 PM, Sonja
                                                          Trauss wrote:<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > I know,
                                                          it's so
                                                          outrageous.
                                                          This line,
                                                          "The notion of
                                                          smart growth —
                                                          also<br>
                                                          > referred
                                                          to as urban
                                                          infill — has
                                                          been around
                                                          for years,
                                                          embraced by a<br>
                                                          > certain
                                                          type of
                                                          environmentalist,
                                                          particularly
                                                          those
                                                          concerned with<br>
                                                          >
                                                          protecting
                                                          open space."<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Yeah, the
                                                          type of
                                                          environmentalist
                                                          that is an
                                                          environmentalist
                                                          - what is<br>
                                                          > this
                                                          supposed to
                                                          mean!<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Also I
                                                          guess (I hope)
                                                          these
                                                          progressives
                                                          don't realize
                                                          that in
                                                          opposing<br>
                                                          >
                                                          development in
                                                          Bayview, they
                                                          are
                                                          contributing
                                                          to keeping
                                                          blacks overall<br>
                                                          > poorer
                                                          than whites.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Putting
                                                          renters aside
                                                          for a minute,
                                                          let's consider
                                                          similarly
                                                          situated black<br>
                                                          > and white
                                                          homeowners, in
                                                          similar income
                                                          black and
                                                          white
                                                          neighborhoods.
                                                          If<br>
                                                          > these
                                                          neighborhoods
                                                          are in a city
                                                          that is
                                                          growing in
                                                          wealth and
                                                          population<br>
                                                          > (like san
                                                          francisco)
                                                          both
                                                          homeowners
                                                          should be able
                                                          to look
                                                          forward to
                                                          their<br>
                                                          > house
                                                          values
                                                          increasing,
                                                          right? NO.
                                                          House values
                                                          at first only
                                                          increase in<br>
                                                          > the white
                                                          neighborhoods,
                                                          because the
                                                          new residents,
                                                          moving to SF
                                                          from all<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div> > --<br>
                                                          Eddie Miller,
                                                          BU '10<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">eddiemill@gmail.com</a> |




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                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:440-935-5434" value="+14409355434" target="_blank">440-935-5434</a><br>
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                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
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                                                          | <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://Twitter.com/eddiemill" target="_blank">Twitter.com/eddiemill</a><br>
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                                            <br>
                                            -- <br>
                                            -------
                                            <div>Andrew Lowe</div>
                                            <div>Cell: <a
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