<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial narrow,sans-serif">Relevant:<br><a href="http://www.verticalfarm.com/">http://www.verticalfarm.com/</a><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial narrow,sans-serif">
Practical?<br></div><div style="text-decoration:none" id="presBubble"></div><div style="text-decoration:none" id="presBubble"></div><div style="text-decoration:none" id="presBubble"></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:28 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net" target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Re. Sonja and how the food gets there: <br>
<br>
What you said, is about how food gets from the entrance of the
highrise to the apartments IN the highrise. I was asking about how
the food gets TO the highrises. From the farms, to the market or
store shelves, to the front door of the highrise (or whatever
building the eater of the food lives in). <br>
<br>
Our food supply largely moves by truck, at cross country distances,
and the difference in total truck miles to city, suburban, and rural
destinations, is minimal. <br>
<br>
The primary added impact of suburbs and rural is of individuals
driving to the store for resupply. But the country mice and
suburban mice both have more space in their nests to store food,
than the city mice do, so they end up making fewer trips for food.
Country mice also tend to make food shopping a social activity with
neighbors, so the trips that are made are often car-pooled.<br>
<br>
The way to get the cars out of the equation is by having a
sufficient number of grocery stores within true walking distance to
homes. That means a couple of blocks at most, and real grocery
stores, not "convenience" stores. That's the development pattern in
Manhattan. New York City also has grocery delivery from most of
those stores via pedal-powered cargo tricycles (these are even
manufactured locally). <br>
<br>
One thing New York City doesn't have a whole lot of, is solar power,
because a concrete jungle of highrises is also a truly crappy
landscape for solar, and one couldn't generate enough power on those
rooftops to even begin to provide for the actual usage in the
apartments below. <br>
<br>
Discussions of sustainability and density all too easily succumb to
one of the fatal flaws of the Western system of logic, "the fallacy
of the excluded middle," where the choices are "bloated suburbs" on
one hand, and "high-density highrises" on the other, with nothing in
between, when in fact there are plenty of design options in between.<br>
<br>
-G.<br>
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<div>On 13-06-11-Tue 6:55 PM, Sonja Trauss
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">HOW DOES THE FOOD GET TO THE HIGHRISES!??!?! If only
.... People could .... Hold groceries ... In ... i don't know
.... Their arms?!?!?! While standing in some kind of box .... That
moves vertically. It's all just too hard to imagine. Surely there
is no place on earth where people live in high rise apartment
buildings. <span></span>
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On Tuesday, June 11, 2013, Jehan Tremback wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Are you telling us that high density urban
housing is not more efficient than sprawled out rural
housing? Keep in mind that the vast majority of people will
not be subsistence farming. Also, as it relates to the Bay,
people are not going to be going back to the land because of
SF rent. They will move to Walnut Creek and sit in traffic
for 2 hours a day, burning gas.
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<div>-Jehan</div>
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<div>On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:01 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a>g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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Hi Jehan;-)<br>
<br>
Ahh, the good ol' city mouse vs. country mouse
arguement. If we avoid ad-homs this should be fun.<br>
<br>
First of all, a-priori generalizations are a-priori
invalid. Individual ecological impact depends on
lifestyle and employment, which vary widely for both
city and country. <br>
<br>
One of the largest impacts is commuting by
automobile. A country mouse who's a telecommuter will
have a zero commuting impact. A city mouse whose
workplace isn't served by public transport will most
likely end up driving to work. That comparison, in
and of itself, falsifies your generalization. <br>
<br>
Are you willing to argue publicly that all the city
mice whose places of employment aren't served by
public transport, or who work late/overnight shift and
live or work in places where taking public transport
is overtly dangerous, should quit their jobs and seek
employment elsewhere? <br>
<br>
Re. smaller apartments: Can you operationalize your
variables? How small? Have you ever drawn a
floorplan for one? I've drawn plenty of floorplans,
down to 160 square feet, and I'll gladly show them to
you any time we have a chance to get together. <br>
<br>
Re. highrises: Can you operationalize those variables
too? How does the water get in, how does the sewage
get out, and where does the money come from to rip
& replace the existing underground infrastructure
for that purpose? And what do you do with a 10- or
20- story building full of people, after the expected
7.0+ on the Hayward or San Andreas takes out the power
grid, water mains, and sewer mains, for a period of
weeks to months? (We'll assume the building remains
standing, though that can't be taken for granted.)<br>
<br>
Also about highrises, what do the children do at
playtime?, where does the food come from to feed all
those people in the high-density highrises?, and how
does the food get there? Who has ownership? Who has
control? Who makes the rules? <br>
<br>
Sweeping generalizations are easy; designing in detail
and walking the talk isn't. <br>
<br>
In the next round I'll describe what I do about water,
electricity, gasoline, and refuse.<br>
<br>
Cheers- <br>
<br>
-G.<br>
<br>
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<div>On 13-06-11-Tue 9:34 AM, Jehan Tremback
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">"Also
there's a difference between a
160-square-foot house you build for yourself
on land you and your friends own, and a
160-square-foot cell in an apartment complex
that some developer builds as a means of
extracting more money from the tenants."</span><br>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
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<div>If you want to go out to the country and
build a house on cheap land, that's your
choice. You will be damaging the environment
with your inevitable automobile use. If you
want to live in the city, as many of us do,
you will have to deal with the fact that
many other people do as well.</div>
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<div>There are 2 ways to get more people onto
a smaller piece of land-</div>
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<div>1. Smaller apartments (I put tenants
subdividing apartments in this category as
well)</div>
<div>2. Replace 1950's style suburban houses
with high rises.</div>
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<div>These facts are completely independent of
whatever system of government and economy.</div>
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</div>
<div>-Jehan<br>
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<div>On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 4:32 AM, GtwoG
PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a>g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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