<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial narrow,sans-serif">This discussion reminded me of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs">Jane Jacobs</a> vs <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses">Robert Moses</a> controversy which I was coincidentally simultaneously learning about and I just noticed a Jane Jacobs book on the bookshelf near the front door which I'd like to point out for the sake of the interested.<br>
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</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 1:14 AM, Eddie Che <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eddiemill@gmail.com" target="_blank">eddiemill@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Aho, all! Greetings from not jail. in fact the noisebridge. no longer<br>
on the land.<br>
Re: the housing, check out this sweet housing continuum diagram!<br>
hella! <a href="http://thetyee.cachefly.net/News/2013/06/11/Housing-Continuum.png" target="_blank">http://thetyee.cachefly.net/News/2013/06/11/Housing-Continuum.png</a><br>
<br>
re the food: maybe this would be helpful, coming up next monday.<br>
<a href="http://balta-sis.ca/2013/05/11/upcoming-webinar-scaling-up-local-food/" target="_blank">http://balta-sis.ca/2013/05/11/upcoming-webinar-scaling-up-local-food/</a><br>
I've been reading "Eco Cities" and "Eco Villages," as about half the<br>
people live in rural areas and half live in cities. and @Anthony,<br>
vertical farms monsanto .:/<br>
<br>
*ahem <a href="http://eddiemill.tumblr.com/post/42521923081/still-wisdom" target="_blank">http://eddiemill.tumblr.com/post/42521923081/still-wisdom</a><br>
<br>
>From a design perspective, (and my hella micro and short-term and<br>
experimental hacker-farmer pioneer ag direct action permaculture<br>
artist perspective), we need some land basically that can be<br>
experimented with what is the best way of growing food and fiber (and<br>
roots, compost...). It's one of my goals to establish a permanent<br>
garden somewhere here in San Francisco. For this my thought is the<br>
be-in land, near the edge of Golden Gate park. I'm right with all the<br>
activists on this one, but the best idea I've heard is hoping that the<br>
City will offset some of the habitat loss of constructing that<br>
egregious 7-acre astro-turf soccer fields, by having an area<br>
permanently dedicated to urban food production and nature in the city,<br>
and the entertainment of some fire and peace and good design. and<br>
music.<br>
<br>
loving you's, these are big things to talk about. Permaculture would<br>
be the process hack to learn that leads to sustainable earth and<br>
sustainable cosmos, I believe. And, these cops are certainly not<br>
helping feed San Francisco!! Finally, as we speak I just made a jar<br>
for a kombucha mother that will be hanging around the Sudo Room.<br>
possibilities.......<br>
<br>
and PS (before anyone says "feed the world" bs,) to get everyone and<br>
anyone gardening, and for real sustainability and freedom folks might<br>
consider hemp, and to me this means planting a fair lot amount pretty<br>
quickly. The other option that gets food and gardening by the 99% to<br>
happen very quickly is an oil shortage or price increase like what<br>
happened to Cuba (there's a great documentary about how Havana became<br>
>50% growing their own food within the city). Anyways, I drift, or do<br>
I.......... CHE<br>
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On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Anthony Di Franco <<a href="mailto:di.franco@gmail.com">di.franco@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Relevant:<br>
> <a href="http://www.verticalfarm.com/" target="_blank">http://www.verticalfarm.com/</a><br>
> Practical?<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:28 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <<a href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net">g2g-public01@att.net</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Re. Sonja and how the food gets there:<br>
>><br>
>> What you said, is about how food gets from the entrance of the highrise to<br>
>> the apartments IN the highrise. I was asking about how the food gets TO the<br>
>> highrises. From the farms, to the market or store shelves, to the front<br>
>> door of the highrise (or whatever building the eater of the food lives in).<br>
>><br>
>> Our food supply largely moves by truck, at cross country distances, and<br>
>> the difference in total truck miles to city, suburban, and rural<br>
>> destinations, is minimal.<br>
>><br>
>> The primary added impact of suburbs and rural is of individuals driving to<br>
>> the store for resupply. But the country mice and suburban mice both have<br>
>> more space in their nests to store food, than the city mice do, so they end<br>
>> up making fewer trips for food. Country mice also tend to make food<br>
>> shopping a social activity with neighbors, so the trips that are made are<br>
>> often car-pooled.<br>
>><br>
>> The way to get the cars out of the equation is by having a sufficient<br>
>> number of grocery stores within true walking distance to homes. That means<br>
>> a couple of blocks at most, and real grocery stores, not "convenience"<br>
>> stores. That's the development pattern in Manhattan. New York City also<br>
>> has grocery delivery from most of those stores via pedal-powered cargo<br>
>> tricycles (these are even manufactured locally).<br>
>><br>
>> One thing New York City doesn't have a whole lot of, is solar power,<br>
>> because a concrete jungle of highrises is also a truly crappy landscape for<br>
>> solar, and one couldn't generate enough power on those rooftops to even<br>
>> begin to provide for the actual usage in the apartments below.<br>
>><br>
>> Discussions of sustainability and density all too easily succumb to one of<br>
>> the fatal flaws of the Western system of logic, "the fallacy of the excluded<br>
>> middle," where the choices are "bloated suburbs" on one hand, and<br>
>> "high-density highrises" on the other, with nothing in between, when in fact<br>
>> there are plenty of design options in between.<br>
>><br>
>> -G.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> =====<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 13-06-11-Tue 6:55 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> HOW DOES THE FOOD GET TO THE HIGHRISES!??!?! If only .... People could<br>
>> .... Hold groceries ... In ... i don't know .... Their arms?!?!?! While<br>
>> standing in some kind of box .... That moves vertically. It's all just too<br>
>> hard to imagine. Surely there is no place on earth where people live in high<br>
>> rise apartment buildings.<br>
>><br>
>> On Tuesday, June 11, 2013, Jehan Tremback wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Are you telling us that high density urban housing is not more efficient<br>
>>> than sprawled out rural housing? Keep in mind that the vast majority of<br>
>>> people will not be subsistence farming. Also, as it relates to the Bay,<br>
>>> people are not going to be going back to the land because of SF rent. They<br>
>>> will move to Walnut Creek and sit in traffic for 2 hours a day, burning gas.<br>
>>><br>
>>> -Jehan<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:01 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <<a href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net">g2g-public01@att.net</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi Jehan;-)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ahh, the good ol' city mouse vs. country mouse arguement. If we avoid<br>
>>> ad-homs this should be fun.<br>
>>><br>
>>> First of all, a-priori generalizations are a-priori invalid. Individual<br>
>>> ecological impact depends on lifestyle and employment, which vary widely for<br>
>>> both city and country.<br>
>>><br>
>>> One of the largest impacts is commuting by automobile. A country mouse<br>
>>> who's a telecommuter will have a zero commuting impact. A city mouse whose<br>
>>> workplace isn't served by public transport will most likely end up driving<br>
>>> to work. That comparison, in and of itself, falsifies your generalization.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Are you willing to argue publicly that all the city mice whose places of<br>
>>> employment aren't served by public transport, or who work late/overnight<br>
>>> shift and live or work in places where taking public transport is overtly<br>
>>> dangerous, should quit their jobs and seek employment elsewhere?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Re. smaller apartments: Can you operationalize your variables? How<br>
>>> small? Have you ever drawn a floorplan for one? I've drawn plenty of<br>
>>> floorplans, down to 160 square feet, and I'll gladly show them to you any<br>
>>> time we have a chance to get together.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Re. highrises: Can you operationalize those variables too? How does the<br>
>>> water get in, how does the sewage get out, and where does the money come<br>
>>> from to rip & replace the existing underground infrastructure for that<br>
>>> purpose? And what do you do with a 10- or 20- story building full of<br>
>>> people, after the expected 7.0+ on the Hayward or San Andreas takes out the<br>
>>> power grid, water mains, and sewer mains, for a period of weeks to months?<br>
>>> (We'll assume the building remains standing, though that can't be taken for<br>
>>> granted.)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Also about highrises, what do the children do at playtime?, where does<br>
>>> the food come from to feed all those people in the high-density highrises?,<br>
>>> and how does the food get there? Who has ownership? Who has control? Who<br>
>>> makes the rules?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Sweeping generalizations are easy; designing in detail and walking the<br>
>>> talk isn't.<br>
>>><br>
>>> In the next round I'll describe what I do about water, electricity,<br>
>>> gasoline, and refuse.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Cheers-<br>
>>><br>
>>> -G.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> =====<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 13-06-11-Tue 9:34 AM, Jehan Tremback wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> "Also there's a difference between a 160-square-foot house you build for<br>
>>> yourself on land you and your friends own, and a 160-square-foot cell in an<br>
>>> apartment complex that some developer builds as a means of extracting more<br>
>>> money from the tenants."<br>
>>><br>
>>> If you want to go out to the country and build a house on cheap land,<br>
>>> that's your choice. You will be damaging the environment with your<br>
>>> inevitable automobile use. If you want to live in the city, as many of us<br>
>>> do, you will have to deal with the fact that many other people do as well.<br>
>>><br>
>>> There are 2 ways to get more people onto a smaller piece of land-<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1. Smaller apartments (I put tenants subdividing apartments in this<br>
>>> category as well)<br>
>>> 2. Replace 1950's style suburban houses with high rises.<br>
>>><br>
>>> These facts are completely independent of whatever system of government<br>
>>> and economy.<br>
>>><br>
>>> -Jehan<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 4:32 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <<a href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net">g2g-public01@att.net</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
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<br>
--<br>
</div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">Eddie Miller, BU '10<br>
<a href="mailto:eddiemill@gmail.com">eddiemill@gmail.com</a> | <a href="tel:440-935-5434" value="+14409355434">440-935-5434</a><br>
Facebook.com/eddiemill | Twitter.com/eddiemill<br>
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