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<br>
Pete makes a number of good points, as do Eddan et. al.<br>
<br>
But as for a temporary ban on Giovanni, no, not after the way this
thing played out so far, unless someone wants to make it a
self-spiting irony by banning him until 14 November (the FCC filing
deadline).<br>
<br>
This is about power and about consistency with principles, and this
is also about justice for individual members. The dysfunctional
"come one, come all" problem at NoiseBridge is a different issue for
a different discussion. <br>
<br>
We've just had days of discussion about restraining Board members
even to the point where someone proposed not allowing them to post
on other public sites that they were on the Board, lest that be
"mis-interpreted" to mean that they have some kind of "authority."<br>
<br>
Then _this_ happens. <br>
<br>
Yes, running a listserv is a lot of work. Having legal
responsibility for a 501 nonprofit is a lot of work too, so what
kinds of unilateral powers shall Board members have? <br>
<br>
List admins should be able to exercise unilateral power in
emergencies, such as overt spammers, threats and other overt
criminal behavior, bot attacks, etc. Beyond that, they should be
expected to bring non-urgent cases to some kind of collective
process, same as anyone else.<br>
<br>
And for all positions that have effective power, "authority" ought
to be defined to mean "delegated authority" including "not to exceed
the limits of the authority that is specifically delegated." <br>
<br>
Unless there's more to the story than a handful of "annoying" posts
to the list, Giovanni deserves to be un-banned ASAP, also deserves
an apology from the group as a whole at the next meeting (collective
power = collective responsibility), and then anyone who has an issue
with him is welcome to use whatever collective processes exist to
solve it. <br>
<br>
-G<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
======<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13-10-31-Thu 8:23 AM, Pete Forsyth
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGWts0GMUf2MBiNcfOQYe8QBf+LUuaWJOH=9T0AL+BU1=FRAeA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I don't know this situation too well, but I do have
a few questions and observations.
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="">* Was this person warned and offered an
opportunity to correct his behavior before being banned?</div>
<div style="">* Is there a clear and clearly communicated path
for him for becoming unbanned in the future?</div>
<div style="">* Even if the ban is the right thing to do, an
email subject line to a public list stating that he has been
banned could be taken as a very hostile and damaging act.
Could this have been done more quietly and respectfully?</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style="">My experience with online community management and
dynamics comes mostly from Wikipedia. One thing I think
Wikipedia really gets right, and which has been inspiring to
me, is to adhere as much as possible to the following:</div>
<div style="">* A ban is fundamentally considered protective,
not punitive; therefore it is typically time-limited, and will
start off for a short duration and only escalate if the
undesirable behavior continutes.</div>
<div style="">
<br>
</div>
<div style="">I agree that this will probably not be the last
time something like this comes up. We should remember that the
passion of Sudo Room members is one of the community's
strengths, and may not always be expressed in a neat and tidy
way.</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style="">Pete</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Eddan
Katz <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eddan@clear.net" target="_blank">eddan@clear.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>I'll 4th & 5th that.</div>
<div>I was trying to direct Giovanni's enthusiasm to be
most useful on the Sudo-radio list. I still think that
would be the most appropriate move.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is in fact true that this is a huge and awesome
open window in spectrum allocation and it would be a
shame to miss it. How Giovanni has tried to go about
convincing everyone of that has clearly been
counter-productive. His promise to put together a brief
note about how to register before Nov. 14 and what it
takes to do that - would be very useful information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I dare say though that if annoying is a criteria for
being banned on this list - as a subjective matter many
would be on thin ice. (No offense. Myself included.)<br>
<br>
I think that ad hoc unilateral banning is an
overextension of the individual power any Sudo-er should
have. Something that was mentioned could justify removal
from the Board. I would suggest we have more than one
person with the power to ban people from our mailing
list. And that those people be charged with doing do
according to some predictable and ascertainable policy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
sent from <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://eddan.com" target="_blank">eddan.com</a></div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On Oct 31, 2013, at 7:47 AM, "Danny Spitzberg" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stationaery@gmail.com"
target="_blank">stationaery@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>I wholeheartedly 2nd, 3rd the sentiment and
suggestion to have a conversation (via email if
not IRL) with Giovanni to tame his exuberance
and use the list more judiciously. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Banning" without first taking initiative to
educate and include in understanding expecte
practices is straight-up draconian --
eliminating not solving the problem.</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<p>On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Sonja Trauss
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sonja.trauss@gmail.com"
target="_blank">sonja.trauss@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p>Banning someone for being annoying is
something you guys will probably have to do
often and you should definitely not do it. </p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As far as I can tell, what makes NB dis
functional is their commitment to come one
come all. "All" is not a great group,
necessarily. If you are trying to build a
club that is self-governing, it has to have
people in it whose judgment you trust.
There's nothing wrong with that I think. <br>
<div>
<br>
On Thursday, October 31, 2013, GtwoG
PublicOhOne wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div> <br>
IMHO that seems excessively harsh.
Banning someone from the list is
similar enough to banning them from
the space, that it seems to me such
things entail a collective action by
the community rather than an
administrative action or unilateral
action by e.g. a list admin or someone
with keys to the door. Spambots and
overt criminals are one thing, but
people who are merely annoying in some
way are another. <br>
<br>
Really: With all the talk about
anarcho-this and collectivist-that and
consensus-the-other-thing, seems to me
that unilaterally banning someone for
being merely annoying is a pretty
major contradiction to core
principles.<br>
<br>
If you or someone else wants to ban
someone from the list or the space,
aside from emergencies such as bots
and criminals, there are
dispute-resolution processes in place
for that. <br>
<br>
So I'm going to stick my neck out and
ask that you reinstate him on the
list, and initiate the use of whatever
collective processes exist for
resolving the issues you have with
him.<br>
<br>
-G<br>
<br>
<br>
=====<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13-10-31-Thu 2:54 AM, Marc
Juul wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu,
Oct 31, 2013 at 2:24 AM, GtwoG
PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div> <br>
What happened? I thought
the "john re" address had
been captured or spoofed
by a spammer, but
"giovanni_re" was a legit
user, most recently
discussing the FCC
application. Did the
_giovanni_re" identity
turn out to be some kind
of wolf in sheep's
clothing? -G<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>He was banned for
spamming the list about the
FCC thing. Nine emails in
nine different threads over
the course of a few hours
about a project that he has
stated that he himself is
not willing to work on. That
is not reasonable. He also
showed up for the sudo room
and counter culture labs
meetings and took an
unreasonable amount of the
community's time trying to
push this project onto
others. It appears that he
has been doing similar
things at noisebridge and
other tech groups in the bay
area.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>In addition: Starting and
running an LPFM station is
no minor undertaking, and
Giovanni has continued his
attempts to push this on
people even in the face of
little interest. This might
have all been fine if he was
actually spearheading the
project, but he is not.<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
-- <br>
</div>
<div>Marc<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div class="im">
<blockquote type="cite">
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