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    <br>
    Yo David and anyone else who is up for a long read or three-<br>
    <br>
    (Apologies for the delay writing back, I had a pile of work to
    clear.)<br>
    <br>
    Agreed, there are times when one has to choose one's fights, and not
    everyone chooses the same fights at the same times.  Looks like we
    agree about fair use, anonymity, mesh, and the movement for
    self-ownership of personal data.  <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Fighting back with ideas:<br>
    <br>
    Majorly agreed re. "fight back ...with ideas."  And "...all the tech
    in the world won't help if people don't give a hoot because they're
    too exhausted by the Spectacle-induced trance of capital etc. to
    care, or don't see why its necessary or in their self-interest." 
    This point is HUGE, and it's rare to find others in the tech
    universe who get it.  Too often we confuse the tools with which we
    build, and the things we build, with the purposes for which we
    build.<br>
    <br>
    Martin Luther King had a dial phone and a typewriter.  He changed
    the world with the power of his ideas.  Today each of us has a
    supercomputer on our desk and/or in our pocket, and can reach an
    audience of millions in the time it takes to blow our noses.<br>
    <br>
    What we lack is an idea: but not just "an" idea, rather a set of
    ideas, an ecosystem of ideas that, taken together, open a new view
    of the world and ourselves in it, and inspire people to think deeply
    and act courageously.  <br>
    <br>
    We've inherited a fortune in ideas from all of history, and yet it
    appears that something is missing, something that could form a
    bridge over which we can walk from the past and present into the
    future.  Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that happiness
    is not identical with meaning.  <br>
    <br>
    The Spectacle and the circuses can produce happiness, but what they
    don't produce is a sense of meaning.  Instead we're told, often by
    our peers, that the most rational view is that life is meaningless,
    that the universe has no purpose, and that only a religious or
    romantic fool would believe otherwise.  But two NOTs don't make an
    AND: so what we're left with is a proverbial hole in our soul and
    nothing to fill it.  "The universe is DEAD!" is hardly a rallying
    cry for sustainability, much less for revolution. <br>
    <br>
    I'm willing to take a chance on an idea, and call BS on the "life is
    meaningless" meme.  In point of fact the best available science
    shows us that the sense of deeply felt meaning in relation to
    something greater than self, is hardwired in our very brains, over
    the course of Darwinian time.  It has been one of the necessities
    for passing the tests of natural selection throughout human history,
    and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future.  <br>
    <br>
    With that bit of empiricism under our belts, we can use what nature
    has given us and seek out the objectives of our sense of meaning and
    purpose in this new world of ours.  Life is as inherently,
    intrinsically, and un-commodifiably meaningful as we can see, hear,
    reach out for, and act on.  Seeking the objectives of meaning is how
    we'll discover the ideas we so badly need.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Money, information, and essence: <br>
    <br>
    Money can be represented in ordered bits, and the vast majority of
    the world's money today is just that.  As no configuration of bits
    is thermodynamically privileged over any other, configurations are
    orthogonal to thermodynamics (I have a couple of thought-experiments
    to support that assertion). <br>
    <br>
    It would be an impressive magic trick to convert something physical
    and impermanent, into a Platonic "form" that is eternal.  Yet this
    is exactly what Kapital does with human labor:  feed a human some
    calories, extract the converted energy of labor as a commodity, and
    exchange it for configurations of bits that are immune to entropy.<br>
    <br>
    "...massive informationalization of our lives and in our language,
    of experience and of concepts..."  You make an excellent point
    here.  First I should say that I'm using the term "information" in a
    broader sense than "data," including the "stuff" that makes up the
    entire set of contents of conscious minds.  But you're making a
    really important distinction here, and I think we should start using
    it and trying to make it go viral.  <br>
    <br>
    What you're getting at with "language... experience... and
    concepts..." is that there is something qualitative about us that
    does not readily reduce to "information" as "data."  David Chalmers
    and others have lately started getting rather bold about bringing
    back an oldschool term for this, that I think we should adopt: 
    qualia.  <br>
    <br>
    Here we run into a kind of dualistic problem roughly analogous with
    the physics of light as particles and waves.  Language is clearly
    transmissible in binary bits (and in analog waveforms), and
    experience and concepts can be described in language.  To that
    extent, these things have an objective or quantitative existence. 
    But concepts and experience are only describable, and not truly
    reducible in any sense.  <br>
    <br>
    As with your example about roses (and noses):  Even if we understood
    all of the chemicals produced by the rose, and everything that
    occurs in the nose and the brain to perceive the smell of roses,
    that knowledge is entirely distinct from the direct experience of
    smelling roses.  That knowledge does not enable us to predict what
    the subjective sensation of smelling roses will be like. 
    (Thankfully we don't have to worry about the internet monetization
    of smells yet: we don't have smelleos, much less YouSniff, and
    puritans trying to legislate against "pornolfactory" by saying "it's
    hard to define but you know it when you smell it!")<br>
    <br>
    Qualia are different to objective knowledge.  Neither is "better"
    than the other; and we as humans live at once in both of those
    worlds.<br>
    <br>
    The attempt to reduce experience to bits is not the fault of
    science, but the fault of those whose goal is to relentlessly
    monetise everything in existence without limit.  Again, it's all
    about trading in configurations of bits.  This configuration of bits
    that convey someone's emotions on their Facebook page, for that
    configuration of bits that convey an advertiser's payment into
    Facebook's bank account.  This configuration of bits that convey
    your thoughts and mine in email, for that configuration of bits that
    convey a data broker's payment into Google's bank account.  <br>
    <br>
    It's the most efficient form of human energy-conversion possible,
    even "better" than slave labor because it's "voluntary" and humans
    do it constantly.  Perhaps Google's NSA-like AIs that scrape Gmail
    for every microgram of commodity value, will read what you and I are
    saying, and achieve something like Buddhist enlightenment.  More
    likely, we'll get red-flagged as philosophical subversives who might
    disobey their consumption quotas.<br>
    <br>
    "...its a real mythology that needs unpacking."  We're doing that
    right here.  All we need to do is put our ideas together, yours and
    mine and anyone else who wants to jump into this, and find a way to
    get them out to a wider public than this obscure mailing list.  <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Math, markets:  <br>
    <br>
    Your critique of math converges with the point about qualia.  But in
    this, we can differentiate between math as Platonic forms that
    describe certain aspects of nature, and math as an instrumentality
    for extracting energy-conversion (surplus value) from organisms.  <br>
    <br>
    Markets aren't rational: agreed.  Someone got a Nobel in economics
    for saying that in a bunch of peer-reviewed papers and/or a book.  <br>
    <br>
    Though, game theory isn't a "total fail."  In fact it predicts why
    globalization is bad.  Experiments run with humans playing
    Prisoner's Dilemma discovered something interesting: if you only
    play one round, your self-interest advantage is to "defect" on the
    other player to gain your freedom at the expense of his/her
    incarceration, rather than "cooperate" with him/her to obtain
    freedom for you both.  Thus it became the conventional wisdom that
    self-interest always entails screwing-over the other person. <br>
    <br>
    But then someone ran the game in "multiple iteration" mode, where
    the same two players go through it multiple times.  Under that
    condition it turned out that the self-interest advantage is to
    "cooperate" with the other player rather than "defect" on her/him. 
    <br>
    <br>
    The result is: single-iteration rewards defection;
    multiple-iteration rewards cooperation. <br>
    <br>
    OK, so how does that apply to globalism?  In a localized economy,
    you encounter the same people over and over again: your economic
    transactions with others are multiple-iteration play, and this
    rewards cooperation, not screwing the other guy/gal.  In a
    globalized economy, one can engage in single-iteration play again
    and again and again, all around the world.  One can screw-over the
    locals and then move on, finding someone else to screw-over before
    the bad reputation catches up.  <br>
    <br>
    Globalism rewards those whose self-interest strategy is "repeat
    defection," in other words, rewards sociopaths.  And, lo &
    behold, since globalism has become the dominant paradigm, we see the
    emergence of a whole new class of economic sociopaths, as
    exemplified in the film _The Wolf Of Wall Street_.  The lead
    character in that film was if anything a bumbling oaf compared to
    the master fraudsters who nearly destroyed the economy in 2008 and
    then demanded and got gazillion-dollar "retention bonuses" paid for
    by taxpayer bailout money.  <br>
    <br>
    Game theory tells us something important about how this happened,
    and gives us a powerful tool to oppose it: economic localization,
    which rewards cooperation.  <br>
    <br>
    "Scientific rationalism is in a way a beautiful dream, like a
    wonderful, utopian idea, and a nice way to organize a representation
    of the world... [but] we don't operate, for even one millisecond, as
    rational creatures."  Sometimes we do operate as rational creatures,
    but I agree that for the most part we don't.  <br>
    <br>
    For the most part, emotions determine behavior, and reason comes
    along after-the-fact with an explanation.  I can explain some of the
    neuroscience behind that statement, but the main thing is, we agree
    about the importance of emotions and qualia as factors in human
    experience and the choices people make (or don't make, as the case
    may be).  <br>
    <br>
    From our lengthy conversation in email, I'm getting a sense of an
    idea or two that may be liberating: that qualia really matter, that
    we are not reducible to bits, that our lives are not to be
    monetized, and that our minds (our souls, if one prefers that
    language) are not to be bought and sold.  We are persons, not
    objects, and it is evil to treat a person as an object.  Each person
    has an entire universe within them.  Each person has an intrinsic
    and irreducible value.  Cooperation, rather than competition alone,
    is an essential in society, and people working together can build
    something meaningful.  Etc. etc.  All of this has been said many
    times before in other language, but it's time to update the language
    to meet our present circumstances.  The core message is about the
    worth of each person, and the right of each person to be
    self-determining, subject only to the limit of not harming others.<br>
    <br>
    Dude, you are awesome.<br>
    <br>
    -G.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    ======<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14-02-03-Mon 6:43 AM, David Keenan
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABhLtjw4ovqqPA+-jAG4DW0PHKd7j4d3eEEeOrnB4P8Wn9-qkg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">damn, g. when you write you right.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>You're completely on point - but of course, I actually do
          care a lot about this issue. All I was inferring is once in a
          while the time comes to just shift productive energies into a
          new paradigm and maybe stop playing whack-a-mole with
          unsecurable modalities like email, and instead work on using
          something better to replace it. Same with the declining fair
          use and vanishing anonymity of the internet in general - the
          wonderful work the mesh folk are doing are to me a really big
          part of this solution. I almost mentioned something about
          appropriation (or feeding biting hands styrofoam peanuts) as a
          tactic being a noble way to cannabilize and take back our
          infrastructure that our tax dollars largely built, so I am
          100% with you there. I have also said many times myself how we
          need to start a movement to have a right to data about
          ourselves, so I am thrilled to hear you say the same thing.
          Absolutely. </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>When it comes to the event, we need to fight back with
          technological tools, but also with ideas. Not sure which is
          more important (or if thats even worth asking), they might be
          equal, but for me it comes down on the side of ideas, as all
          the tech in the world won't help if people don't give a hoot
          because they're too exhausted by the Spectacle-induced trance
          of capital etc to care, or dont see why its necessary or in
          their self-interest. I fully support the cryptoparties - what
          we also need are the crypto-semantic frames i guess, to help
          us put this fucking insane world where companies pirate and
          monitize our digital lives into a moral logic everyone, even
          our grandmas, can all intuitively grasp and therefore resist.
          Drive the demand as it were, for 'privacy'. I see events like
          this being part of that conversation on the side of ideas, but
          the cryptoparties, and making them less technically abstruse,
          are the other half for sure. Theory + practice = praxis, we
          need both.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [I have to break up your long paragraphs into shorter ones for
    legibility; I'm dyslexic and my eyes have trouble tracking lines in
    large blocks of text.]<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABhLtjw4ovqqPA+-jAG4DW0PHKd7j4d3eEEeOrnB4P8Wn9-qkg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>You know the only thing I'm not totally sure I agree with
          is that money is information..if we're talking about money and
          not capital I might agree, if we're talking about capital
          (which of course is not just 'money') I'm too tired to know if
          I agree or not. </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>On the one hand, I am wary of what I see everywhere as a
          massive informationalization of our lives and in our language,
          of experience and of concepts... a scientism really thats
          always trying to quantify the qualitative - or at least,
          valorize the former and dismiss the later, if it cannot
          transmute it. Its a naturalizing, essentializing cultural
          phenomenon wherein we are led to simply accept without
          question that the essential aspect of anything in the world is
          ultimately 'information': </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABhLtjw4ovqqPA+-jAG4DW0PHKd7j4d3eEEeOrnB4P8Wn9-qkg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Music is 'information', plants are 'information', we -
          online and in our 'genes' and 'dna' - the universe - are
          fundamentally reduceable to codes, chemical properties, etc. I
          suspect this aspect of our culture is tied to capital ideology
          (marx: 'they don't know it, but they are doing it') and
          biopower (think Patrick McCuehen saying 'I am not a number! I
          am a FREE MAN!'), although I can't think of how right now,
          because as I said I'm pretty tired, but anyway its a real
          mythology that needs unpacking, or totalizing kool-aid that
          needs a bit of unslurping. </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABhLtjw4ovqqPA+-jAG4DW0PHKd7j4d3eEEeOrnB4P8Wn9-qkg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Nothing against 'information' or using 'information' as but
          one metaphor with which analyze the workings of the world, but
          we should never mistake our tools of analysis - i.e., our
          abstracted representation of reality, like calling the smell
          of a rose 'information' - for reality itself, and it seems
          like that's whats actually happening at some level. We must be
          epistemologically reflexive and catch ourselves before we fall
          into that trap. So, I have to think a lot before I decide that
          money is 'at its root' essentializable as 'information', too.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Along the same lines another argument against money as
          essentially, fundamentally 'information' thing is this notion
          that its ultimately governed by 'math', or that the cycle of
          capital exploiting our surplus labor value is ultimately
          governed by math, or that financial markets are ultimately
          governed by math. </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABhLtjw4ovqqPA+-jAG4DW0PHKd7j4d3eEEeOrnB4P8Wn9-qkg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>I'm not sure I agree, because markets are also ultimately
          governed by human beings, who are not just information, and
          human beings, as Plato well knew, but maybe Adam Smith and
          Descartes did not, are simply not rational. At all. This is in
          large part why game theory is a total fail, why people vote
          against their economic self-interest, and also why people are
          not outraged at the deprivation of their digital liberty, etc.
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABhLtjw4ovqqPA+-jAG4DW0PHKd7j4d3eEEeOrnB4P8Wn9-qkg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Scientific rationalism is in a way a beautiful dream, like
          a wonderful, utopian idea, and a nice way to organize a
          representation of the world, but it is not <i>the</i> world,
          and we don't operate, for even one millisecond, as rational
          creatures. Just as we do not build up the world out of a
          series of concepts - we just ARE in the world, all at once,
          and from that, we think of concepts to organize it with, for
          ourselves. We are subject to cognitive and emotional centers
          in our brain that were indirectly induced to connect in
          accordance with certain decidedly a-rational cultural ways and
          mores through processes of socialization of which we had no
          control...</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Folks are tempted to think about 'math' as something pure,
          a religion practically, but how often do people get reflexive
          about math? Like the fact that we can't conceive of 'math'
          without also simultaneously conceiving of metaphors that have
          nothing whatsoever to actually do with math, but without which
          we could not perform math: If I say one is a 'higher' number
          than two, that has no strictly mathematical meaning. </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CABhLtjw4ovqqPA+-jAG4DW0PHKd7j4d3eEEeOrnB4P8Wn9-qkg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>One is not 'higher' than two. An increase in quantity is
          not an increase in height. It's simply an increase in
          quantity. And yet numbers go 'up'. Makes no sense
          man...mathematically. But it does at the level of non-math, in
          real life, because if I pour you a glass of water, the
          quantity increases as the level rises. But what if we lived in
          a society where I we poured water out on the floor and drank
          it from there. Would you say that numbers go up or down? Hm.
          So math itself is actually utterly imbricated with entirely
          qualitative dimensions that only make sense from the
          perspective of human experience. And so is not so pure: the
          basis for 'money', perhaps, after all.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Sleep now. Good nite.. and thanks for your awesome email..</div>
        <div>-d  </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:15 AM, GtwoG
          PublicOhOne <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net" target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
              <br>
              David, it's not to your discredit, it's to the discredit
              of Kapital, and it's been foisted on the whole
              Neo-Proletariat, which is anyone making less than six
              figures a year (look up union wages in 1974 and then apply
              increases at the rate of inflation every year with
              compound interest: that's what we all _should_ be earning
              right now).  We shouldn't blame ourselves for getting
              screwed.<br>
              <br>
              Here's another example of Kapital sinking its hooks into
              our brains (I'm quoting you here not to criticize you, but
              to illustrate how common this type of dynamic has
              become):  "Personally, once I gave up on email qua email
              as being meaningfully secure, I sort of stopped caring who
              my provider was."<br>
              <br>
              The emotional narrative in that sentence is: "...once I
              gave up... I sort of stopped caring..."<br>
              <br>
              That's what the Bigs want us to do: give up and stop
              caring, the better to spend our efforts producing and
              consuming.  And they are enormously clever at how they go
              about it: too much work, just enough bread, and plenty of
              circuses.  About which more below under "Kapital."<br>
              <br>
              Where you say "I really don't have an answer for this
              one," that makes the vitally important point that we ALL
              need answers to this.  The fact that we don't have
              comprehensive answers and solutions shows exactly where
              our efforts need to be.  <br>
              <br>
              Agreed, email is broken.  IMHO the whole internet
              architecture is broken (don't get me started;-) but in any
              case we need new infrastructure and a solid collaborative
              effort to build it.  Not just "good enough for coders
              & geeks to use" but "good enough for your grandmother
              to use without you providing tech support."  You shouldn't
              have to _teach_ people to use crypto: it should be
              built-in, with nothing more than a check in a box to
              encrypt/decrypt email.  The global community of hackers
              can build all of that and much more if we choose.<br>
              <br>
              Good point about "metadata" being a euphemism to obscure
              the fact that it's OUR data.  In the past I've used the
              term "CDR" for "call detail records," a telephony term
              that has lately been in the news since it's what NSA gets
              from our phone calls (date, time, calling number, called
              number, duration of call); it could also be used to refer
              to email to/from addresses and subject headers.  But "OUR
              data," emphasis on OUR, is better, because it's so direct
              and assertive.  <br>
              <br>
              This translates to something specific we should be
              demanding: personal ownership of all data about ourselves,
              without compromise.  Treat it like copyright with
              exceptions for fair use.  Make the maximum demand, so that
              when the usual attempts at legislative watering-down
              occur, we still get something better than if we had tried
              to "be reasonable" and "pre-compromise" our demands.  <br>
              <br>
              If it's necessary to use Facebook for publicity, the way
              to do it is by using a fictitious name & email address
              for the FB account, and then putting up a message on the
              Facebook page saying "find us _here_ (link)," which goes
              to a website on a more trustworthy hosting service.  Then,
              that website does not have the accursed Facebook
              beacon-button on it that lets Facebook follow people
              around like a stalker.  (Anyone who can't bother clicking
              a link that goes off Facebook, isn't worth the effort to
              reach.  Seriously.)  <br>
              <br>
              That's the answer to having to feed the hand that bites: 
              Feed it styrofoam peanuts with no food value.  Use its own
              infrastructure sparingly and temporarily, as a way to get
              people to leave it behind.  For example, one of the topics
              at the surveillance event ought to be a how-to for getting
              the snoops & stalkers out of our lives: dumping
              Google, installing security apps on your browser,
              installing an OFF switch in your mobile device, etc., all
              with specifics: this email service, this app, here's where
              to find it, how to do it, etc.<br>
              <br>
              About Kapital:<br>
              <br>
              Karl Marx got it almost-right, but "surplus value" is an
              abstraction: the real deal is the Second Law of
              Thermodynamics.  Kapital depends on "energy conversion." 
              What humans are to Kapital, are highly efficient
              energy-converters that turn calories into money.  The
              abstraction layer is between the work output of the human
              organism, and the translation of that into money.  At
              root, money is energy converted to information.  And
              information is ultimately Platonic, governed by math and
              orthogonal to thermodynamics.  <br>
              <br>
              The goal of Kapital is to extract every calorie that's not
              needed to keep the energy-converters producing and
              consuming.  Latest example: Amazon's patent for
              "predictive shipping," where they send you things that you
              haven't ordered, but Amazon predicts you'll want, on the
              premise that you'll probably keep them.  Translation:
              people will pay for the "stuff" because they're too tired
              to deal with the hassle of returning it.    Amazon
              predicts, humans acquiesce.<br>
              <br>
              The reason that so many people "give up and stop caring"
              is that they are being sucked dry.  Think of all the "too
              tired" moments and what they have in common.<br>
              <br>
              In the end, the scam is self-limiting.  Kapital thrives on
              the exponential function: the unlimited growth of money
              and the economy despite the limits of a finite planet. 
              Kapital will break as it runs into resource limits,
              including the limits of humans to relentlessly produce and
              relentlessly consume.  <br>
              <br>
              -G.<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              =====
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <div>On 14-02-03-Mon 2:33 AM, David Keenan wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>Matt, I will bring up your point at the next
                        organizing meeting for sure. Thank you for being
                        willing to sponsor.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      Yardena - your point is exceedingly well taken, as
                      I sit here from my gmail account, writing about
                      how if want to do the event, we should post it on
                      facebook...sigh.  
                      <div> <br>
                      </div>
                      <div>To my discredit, I really don't have an
                        answer for this one except that in my opinion,
                        email as a medium is itself an inherently broken
                        means of secure communication, a lotta people on
                        sudo have google accounts, and yeah sudo posts
                        regularly to facebook, which is why I asked..
                        Sometimes you have to reach out to people in an
                        archaic medium they already grok - like on a
                        listserv, or fb - in order to tell them that is
                        maybe not The Best Way. <br>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                          Personally, once I gave up on email qua email
                          as being meaningfully secure, I sort of
                          stopped caring who my provider was. Or
                          teaching people how to encrypt their message
                          content, only to have them never get that
                          doesn't secure their attachments or the
                          "metadata" or render messages readable from
                          the web from any device anymore or or or (I
                          kind of hate the term metadata btw, as in mass
                          culture 'metadata' has seemingly come to infer
                          something other than 'our' data, and as if
                          metadata is not also our data, just like our
                          non-meta data). </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                        </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra">But yes for sure, if we
                          care about 'privacy', we DO need to be off fb
                          (and onto building up diaspora or something
                          similar), and, we need to be off email. And
                          use some darkmail, or otr or a private forum
                          or something else.  </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                        </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra">I feel like for us to
                          all get off fb, we need a real alternative to
                          go to, and a campaign. Same with email. But
                          before we build that up.. using fb/email or
                          not using it, it seems like being caught
                          between a rock and a hard place when trying to
                          promote an event but not feed the biting hand,
                          you know?</div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                        </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra">As this is precisely
                          the position I feel like the system of capital
                          as a whole places us in, far beyond mark
                          zuckerberg and google and 'big data': We can't
                          help but feed the hand that bites us. We
                          'need' to be bitten, so our traumatized,
                          bitten selves can feed somebody or something
                          else..often while simultaneously handing a
                          bite to somebody else less powerful, as in in
                          the case of gentrification. If that partially
                          re-inverted idiom still makes any sense..which
                          um, no, looks like it doesn't. Well. Sorry,
                          tired. But I totally get you.</div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                        </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra">Yeah. Tired.</div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                        </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra">David</div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                          <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 3, 2014
                            at 1:12 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <span
                              dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:g2g-public01@att.net"
                                target="_blank">g2g-public01@att.net</a>></span>
                            wrote:<br>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                              style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                              #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                                Re. "what does the rest of sudo think?"<br>
                                <br>
                                Microphones & cameras on
                                shot-spotters?  What about the
                                software-controlled mics & cameras
                                on smartphones, that people carry into
                                indoor places where the DAC cameras and
                                mics can't go?  If it doesn't have a
                                physical OFF switch or a removable
                                battery, it's always ON.<br>
                                <br>
                                NSA snooping your metadata?  What about
                                Google Mail and Google Voice scraping
                                the full content of both sides of every
                                email & conversation for everything
                                down to the level of "sentiment
                                analysis" which is a euphemism for
                                spying on your emotions?  "Targeted
                                advertising" is a distraction; Big Data
                                is the real product.<br>
                                <br>
                                DAC data center creepy?  What about
                                Facebook creepy, and Sudo having a
                                Facebook page, even as Mark Zuckerberg
                                spends $16 million to buy up every house
                                on his block, so his neighbors can't do
                                unto him that which he does unto
                                others...?  <br>
                                <br>
                                Big Power is inherently corrupt wherever
                                it resides.  Big Data is Big Power. 
                                Even if it has good marketing, cute
                                logos, total convenience, free apps,
                                free games, and endless entertainment.<br>
                                <br>
                                Corporate power says "don't bite the
                                hand that feeds you."<br>
                                <br>
                                Resistance says "don't feed the hand
                                that bites you."<br>
                                <br>
                                -G.<br>
                                <br>
                                <br>
                                =====
                                <div>
                                  <div><br>
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                    <div>On 14-02-02-Sun 11:12 AM, David
                                      Keenan wrote:<br>
                                    </div>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">Jeremy - Of
                                      course! And we should.
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>what does t<span></span>he
                                        rest of sudo think?<br>
                                        <div><br>
                                          On Sunday, February 2, 2014,
                                          Jeremy Entwistle <<a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="mailto:jwentwistle@cryptolab.net"
                                            target="_blank">jwentwistle@cryptolab.net</a>>


                                          wrote:<br>
                                          <blockquote
                                            class="gmail_quote"
                                            style="margin:0 0 0
                                            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                            solid;padding-left:1ex">I
                                            think that's an amazing
                                            idea. How to do you feel
                                            about the mesh and our
                                            cryptoparty (2/23) being
                                            mentioned? As both are very
                                            practical methods of
                                            promoting secure and
                                            decentralized
                                            communications.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            On 2014-02-01 21:58, David
                                            Keenan wrote:<br>
                                            <blockquote
                                              class="gmail_quote"
                                              style="margin:0 0 0
                                              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                              solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                              Hey all,<br>
                                              <br>
                                              The Bay Area Public School
                                              has scheduled a
                                              surveillance awareness<br>
                                              event on Friday 2/21 7-9pm
                                              in the common room
                                              entitled Spied Upon:<br>
                                              Surveillance &
                                              Resistance. I was hoping
                                              we (sudo) could co-host
                                              this<br>
                                              event with BAPS, because I
                                              think it'd be really cool
                                              if we start doing<br>
                                              more events together. BAPS
                                              can do most all of the
                                              setup, but it'd be<br>
                                              great if Sudo can do
                                              outreach too, since I
                                              think it'd be in the<br>
                                              interest of both
                                              communities.<br>
                                              <br>
                                              What do you think?<br>
                                              <br>
                                              There's a twofold focus on
                                              informants and
                                              technological
                                              surveillance.<br>
                                              Here's the Sudo Room
                                              calendar EVENT LINK [1].
                                              Details are below -<br>
                                              <br>
                                              SPIED UPON: SURVEILLANCE
                                              AND RESISTANCE<br>
                                              Join us Friday February
                                              21st 7-9 pm at the Bay
                                              Area Public School [2]<br>
                                              & Sudo Room<br>
                                               2141 Broadway (enter on
                                              22nd), Oakland - three
                                              blocks from 19th St.<br>
                                              Bart!<br>
                                              <br>
                                              Between the ever-present
                                              fear of informants to the
                                              profusion of<br>
                                              metadata collection and
                                              the construction of the
                                              Domain Awareness<br>
                                              Center [3] (DAC) in
                                              Oakland, the growing
                                              problem of surveillance
                                              has<br>
                                              made it into the
                                              mainstream dialog, but the
                                              people and communities<br>
                                              most affected are
                                              sometimes being left out
                                              of the conversation.<br>
                                              <br>
                                              Join us for an evening of
                                              ideas, discussion and
                                              questions about<br>
                                              solidarity in the face of
                                              this intimidation. How do
                                              we support one<br>
                                              another and our movements
                                              when being targeted by
                                              police, surveillance<br>
                                              and informants? What are
                                              the legal, community and
                                              political responses<br>
                                              that can best keep the
                                              larger "us" safe and allow
                                              our movements to<br>
                                              flourish?<br>
                                              <br>
                                              - SPEAKERS -<br>
                                              JASON KIRKPATRICK,
                                              filmmaker and activist,
                                              will show clips of and<br>
                                              discuss his upcoming film,
                                              _SPIED UPON_ [4].
                                              Interviewing activists<br>
                                              across the world and
                                              telling his own personal
                                              story, Jason will take<br>
                                              us on a journey into one
                                              of Europe's biggest
                                              political surveillance<br>
                                              scandals, documenting
                                              growing movements of
                                              resistance to surveillance<br>
                                              along the way.<br>
                                              <br>
                                              ZAHRA BILLOO, Civil rights
                                              attorney and Executive
                                              Director at the Bay<br>
                                              Area COUNCIL ON
                                              AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS
                                              [5] (CAIR), speaks on the<br>
                                              use of informants in a
                                              post-9/11 context, their
                                              impact, the<br>
                                              community's resistance and
                                              lessons learned.<br>
                                              <br>
                                              RICHARD BROWN, Black
                                              Panther and member of the
                                              SF8 [6], will share his<br>
                                              history with undercover
                                              police and surveillance,
                                              imparting the 'long<br>
                                              view' of solidarity
                                              learned from a lifetime of
                                              activism.<br>
                                              <br>
                                              - PANEL DISCUSSION -<br>
                                              Q & A with the
                                              speakers will follow in
                                              conversation with<br>
                                              representatives from:<br>
                                               BAY AREA ANTI-REPRESSION
                                              COMMITTEE [7]<br>
                                              BAY AREA COALITION TO STOP
                                              POLITICAL REPRESSION [8]
                                              (at AROC)<br>
                                               LEGAL WORKERS OF THE
                                              NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD [9]
                                              (NLG)<br>
                                              OAKLAND PRIVACY WORKING
                                              GROUP [10] (OPWG /
                                              anti-DAC)<br>
                                              <br>
                                              All donations gratefully
                                              received will go to the
                                              Bay Area<br>
                                              Anti-Repression Committee
                                              and the Legal Workers at
                                              the Bay Area<br>
                                              chapter of the NLG - two
                                              groups long supporting the
                                              Bay Area radical<br>
                                              community with legal and
                                              educational assistance.
                                              Thank you!<br>
                                              <br>
                                              Links:<br>
                                              ------<br>
                                              [1] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://sudoroom.org/ai1ec_event/spied-upon-bay-area-premiere-baps/"
                                                target="_blank">https://sudoroom.org/ai1ec_event/spied-upon-bay-area-premiere-baps/</a><br>
                                              [2] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="http://thepublicschool.org/node/36455"
                                                target="_blank">http://thepublicschool.org/node/36455</a><br>
                                              [3] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center"
                                                target="_blank">http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center</a><br>
                                              [4] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="http://spiedupon.com/"
                                                target="_blank">http://spiedupon.com/</a><br>
                                              [5] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="http://www.cair.com/"
                                                target="_blank">http://www.cair.com/</a><br>
                                              [6] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="http://www.freethesf8.org/who.html"
                                                target="_blank">http://www.freethesf8.org/who.html</a><br>
                                              [7] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="https://oaklandantirepression.wordpress.com/"
                                                target="_blank">https://oaklandantirepression.wordpress.com/</a><br>
                                              [8]<br>
                                              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://araborganizing.org/campaigns-our-work/coalition-to-stop-political-repression/"
                                                target="_blank">http://araborganizing.org/campaigns-our-work/coalition-to-stop-political-repression/</a><br>
                                              [9] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="http://www.nlgsf.org/national-lawyers-guild-mission-statement"
                                                target="_blank">http://www.nlgsf.org/national-lawyers-guild-mission-statement</a><br>
                                              [10] <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="https://oaklandprivacy.wordpress.com/"
                                                target="_blank">https://oaklandprivacy.wordpress.com/</a><br>
                                              <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                                              <a moz-do-not-send="true">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
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href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
                                            </blockquote>
                                            <br>
                                            -- <br>
                                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="https://twitter.com/jwentwistle"
                                              target="_blank">https://twitter.com/jwentwistle</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                            sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
                                            <a moz-do-not-send="true">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
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                                              href="http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss"
                                              target="_blank">http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
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