<p dir="ltr">Backspace has our first meeting in the space tonight. We have a lot to catch up on and discuss including the use of space and lines of communication. </p>
<p dir="ltr">Please be mindful that Backspace is a new collective and we are just catching our stride. We will have an email to send stuff to all of us, but in the meantime the best way to get a message to the group is to email me or David and we will forward it on for discussion within our collective.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Thanks,<br>
Andrew</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 7, 2014 7:31 PM, "Jenny Ryan" <<a href="mailto:tunabananas@gmail.com">tunabananas@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<br>
Hi David!<br>
<br>
Sorry, I didn't have time to read the entirety of this email, but I<br>
just want to point out that discussion between sudo and backspace would<br>
only be possible if there was some clear means of communicating with<br>
the backspace community (a mailing list, a website chat portal, an irc<br>
channel, an email address that is redirected to the whole community,<br>
etc;). I am aware of the Facebook group, but believe this to be at once<br>
both overly public (for logistical communications) and antithetical to<br>
the ideals I'm aware that both sudo and backspace hold wrt information<br>
privacy and communication channels.<br>
<br>
With love, let's work it out!,<br>
jenny<br>
<br>
On Mon 07 Jul 2014 07:18:37 PM PDT, David Keenan wrote:<br>
> Hey Matt and everyone,<br>
><br>
> I'm not sure where all the negative energy is coming from. I'm not trying<br>
> to kill a proposal, or kill anything. All I'm saying is, if you want to put<br>
> something in backspace's space, talking to backspace is probably a good<br>
> step before deciding on a whole plan and then bringing it to the entire<br>
> collective. IE, include backspace, too - how would that *not* be part and<br>
> parcel of crafting such a proposal? I'm sorry if this sentiment of mine<br>
> feels hurtful to anyone or that they are being silenced - I guess I am<br>
> failing totally, but what I want to encourage is more dialogue, not less -<br>
> and really *more* openness (between groups) and more open lines of<br>
> communication - that is all I was advocating for, please everyone, I hope<br>
> they can try to take my suggestions and input in this vein?<br>
><br>
> Daniel and Matt especially, I worry my gratefulness for all you both do and<br>
> especially leading this effort on the network infrastructure is not coming<br>
> through -- but I personally *am* grateful, that is not just rhetoric, and I<br>
> thank you profoundly and seriously for your thoughtful input and<br>
> consideration in auditing the building for locations. I am really glad you<br>
> are on this, and I am not trying to deflate or kill your or anyone's<br>
> efforts and energy toward this. Consensus mixed with do-o-cracy is what<br>
> Sudo, Backspace, BAPS and in fact every member entity is about - It can be<br>
> a tricky line to walk, but we can and will, because.. we are awesome? Cuz<br>
> we hafta? Cause thats how we are gonna remake the world? Something alone<br>
> those lines.<br>
><br>
> The thing I have been trying to tell myself every day is to try to be<br>
> kinder than ever before to people - I can see that I am failing, but I want<br>
> very much to improve on that. I mean being as kind as possible even if I<br>
> feel a responsibility to bring up doubts or concerns that can impede action<br>
> towards a goal - action that may have unforeseen negative consequences that<br>
> I think *no one* wants. I know sometimes I am overemphatic and for that I<br>
> apologize - I really do - I am trying to change that. I do love everyone in<br>
> this project and am incredibly, incredibly grateful for all people do.<br>
><br>
> So Matt, I do feel compelled sometimes to speak up on behalf of those who<br>
> are not present but are perhaps directly affected by what is being<br>
> discussed - those who are not necessarily part of another's group, or not<br>
> included on this or that internal email thread, or not in on another<br>
> group's internal meetings - precisely because I, as a member of Omni, not<br>
> just BAPS or Sudo or Backspace, want and strive to be considerate of<br>
> *everyone*'s needs, and try to get each group to think about how decisions<br>
> impact other groups or people in the building in ways that had simply not<br>
> been a consideration before moving in together in this big ol crazy place.<br>
><br>
> I am not ever trying to dictate anything to anyone in those situations - I<br>
> really am only trying to effect the sentiments above and I really hope that<br>
> in terms of the benefit of the doubt Matt is talking about, that I am<br>
> afforded this, because that is where I am coming from.<br>
><br>
> Now then - Daniel, re: garbage -- I agree, and it has by now long been the<br>
> case that garbage will not live permanently in that room. I have several<br>
> ideas for where the garbage will go that I believe are viable - but I feel<br>
> like, that is almost another thread and I want to stick to the topic at<br>
> hand here, which is where to put a two or four post rack.<br>
><br>
> Daniel, I also agree the servers should be in a central place if possible.<br>
> For accessibility, but also as you point out, for centrality of cable runs<br>
> -- I am thinking provisionally one Cat5e/6a to each room/main area, with<br>
> VLANs as necessary, and then breakout switches as needed for each area. If<br>
> Sudo needs more copper to the sudo/ccl room for bandwidth, and we do not<br>
> have 10Gb switches lying around :) -- we can run two or four 1Gb cables to<br>
> channel bond them. To this end I think we should figure out Sudo's the<br>
> bandwidth requirements for the equipment Sudo is planning to store in that<br>
> rack.<br>
><br>
> Now then to explain a bit more my idea (just an idea - not a dictum, and<br>
> not necessarily the best place - just an idea, I am not set on it) of<br>
> putting the servers in the basement, in the small room near the furnaces:<br>
><br>
> First, TE closets are often in basements because it is easier to get to<br>
> other parts of the building there, than in rooms above. To a large extent,<br>
> from what I can see this also holds for Omni.<br>
><br>
> So:<br>
> 1. Cable runs to Sudo room is not hard - there are even windows to sudo<br>
> room in the basement.<br>
><br>
> 2. Cable runs to the ballroom and that whole area - the basement is under<br>
> it, also easy.<br>
><br>
> 3. Cable runs to the bookstore-cafe -- several options here, but the<br>
> basement is very close to this area. A cable could be run up through the<br>
> basement ceiling in the ne corner - I know there is a sink here, but there<br>
> is also a thought of installing a dumb waiter here too. Otherwise, plenum<br>
> cabling inside / alongside any cold-air return ductwork that passes by/to<br>
> the cafe-bookstore area; or blx for heating ducts.<br>
><br>
> 4. Server room location in basement - one idea: The room between the<br>
> kitchen and main stairs to the basement:<br>
> 4a. We'd wall up the opening to the kitchen first.<br>
> 4b. Then run plenum-grade cable inside the cold-air return, blx cabling<br>
> inside the heated ducts, i.e. using ducting when possible to get to<br>
> everywhere in the building the ducting goes, such as the disco room<br>
> (OMNIdance's room). If we can't or don't want to use the ducting we can<br>
> also possibly, maybe fish it along plumbing or drainage - the water heater<br>
> is in the basement.<br>
><br>
> This would also allow tapping into existing venting for possibly heat<br>
> distribution, and also be not far from a compressor for the walk in should<br>
> A/C be needed. Also, the sound of the rack will not be nearly as much of an<br>
> issue there.<br>
><br>
> Just an idea - my thinking out loud only on this project.<br>
><br>
> Please, lets hack it together?<br>
><br>
> With love and solidarity,<br>
> David<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Jenny Ryan <<a href="mailto:tunabananas@gmail.com">tunabananas@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
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>><br>
>> All -<br>
>><br>
>> I would like to return to Daniel's initial email about this topic - the<br>
>> topic being "where would be optimal to host the server closet that will<br>
>> provide internet connectivity to the entirety of Omni and beyond (being<br>
>> a node in People's Open Network)?"):<br>
>><br>
>> The proposal was to host the server rack in the utility closet (where<br>
>> the garbage cans currently are, and part of Backspace at this point):<br>
>><br>
>> "Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we will have<br>
>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the group<br>
>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our<br>
>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.<br>
>><br>
>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:<br>
>><br>
>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I believe.<br>
>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.<br>
>><br>
>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we should consider<br>
>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High temperature and<br>
>> noise levels are the main issues."<br>
>><br>
>> Please chill and actually take into account the above proposal (which<br>
>> is entirely sensitive to this being a community decision about a<br>
>> utility that will come to serve the entire building and all collectives<br>
>> in it).<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks for reading,<br>
>> Jenny<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Mon 07 Jul 2014 06:35:13 PM PDT, Matthew Senate wrote:<br>
>>> Please don't misconstrue my language.<br>
>>><br>
>>> If folks are participating in good faith, and they are not met with<br>
>> sincere<br>
>>> appreciation (not just rhetoric), they will no longer be interested in<br>
>>> participating. People who are willing to help will walk away if they do<br>
>> not<br>
>>> feel like it is worth their time.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I do not have interest in working on the physical network for the<br>
>> building<br>
>>> at this point. It seems like some other(s) may be able to manage it fine<br>
>> on<br>
>>> their own.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Anyone else interested?<br>
>>><br>
>>> // Matt<br>
>>><br>
>>> p.s. Nothing has been definitive in this topic. What I was hoping to<br>
>>> achieve with Daniel was a clear, succinct proposal to bring back to<br>
>>> everyone. The presumption from David has been that "we" (sudo?) just want<br>
>>> to railroad over everyone, despite protests from me (and others) about<br>
>> this<br>
>>> false assumption. I find this situation to be based on an assumption of<br>
>> bad<br>
>>> faith (despite the "good faith" rhetoric) since "we" (sudo?) are<br>
>>> "colonizing" the building (or something?)--not "improving" it or<br>
>>> "participating" in it. Willingness to hear a proposal does not imply<br>
>>> commitment. Obsession with deflecting the possibility of a proposal is<br>
>>> *silencing* and is a practice that drains communities of their energy.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:21 PM, niki <<a href="mailto:niki.shelley@gmail.com">niki.shelley@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> Whoah, y'all!<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think the main issue here is that the people involved w/Backspace<br>
>> aren't<br>
>>>> being included in this conversation.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> It may very well be that that space cannot be converted into a<br>
>>>> consultation room for Backspace, but those who may be affected by that<br>
>>>> should at least be given a chance to participate in a dialogue about<br>
>>>> whatever it is that ends up happening and what that will mean for their<br>
>>>> ability to practice in the building.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Saying things like "Can't wait to see the plans..." / "Good luck!" feels<br>
>>>> like a real personal attack and really unnecessary / unsupportive -<br>
>>>> especially when it's being directed towards one person because they are<br>
>> the<br>
>>>> member of Backspace who happens to be on this particular mailing list.<br>
>>>> Especially when that one person agreed to come on board to help<br>
>> Backspace<br>
>>>> as an act of mutual aid.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I also feel like questions that have been put forth in good faith such<br>
>> as,<br>
>>>> "Why can't the server racks be stored in Sudo?" have not been answered.<br>
>> If<br>
>>>> there's a good reason, that's awesome. All I'm hearing, however, is a<br>
>> lack<br>
>>>> of willingness to have a conversation about potentially repurposing a<br>
>> space<br>
>>>> that another group had planned on using and all of the reasons why this<br>
>> is<br>
>>>> the only / best space for the server racks.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think that's all anyone's asking for! An opportunity to participate in<br>
>>>> the dialogue and an explanation as to why this space must be used for<br>
>> this<br>
>>>> purpose over any other space.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Love,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Niki<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
>>>> From: Matthew Senate <<a href="mailto:mattsenate@gmail.com">mattsenate@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> Date: Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:03 PM<br>
>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status<br>
>>>> To: David Keenan <<a href="mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com">dkeenan44@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> Cc: "<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> David,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Great, looking forward to you setting up the network somewhere as well<br>
>> as<br>
>>>> building out that store room in some way or other.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Can't wait to see the plans, approval, and funding for the store room.<br>
>>>> Maybe in the next 4-6 months?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> You may want to note what Daniel said about 4ft of clearance (or<br>
>> similar)<br>
>>>> around those electrical panels. I think this may be the page of<br>
>>>> regulations:<br>
>>>><br>
>> <a href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9880" target="_blank">https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9880</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Wow, that's going to be a lot of work.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Good luck!<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> // Matt<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 5:48 PM, David Keenan <<a href="mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com">dkeenan44@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> Jeez..<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Matt, do you require all of the Backspace Wellness Collective to join<br>
>>>>> sudo-discuss email list to have this discussion collectively (and<br>
>>>>> therefore, productively), or inter-collectively as the case may be? We<br>
>> are<br>
>>>>> not all on Sudo's email list. Yes, I am on sudo's list, therefore I am<br>
>>>>> responding on behalf of many members of Backspace, because I, unlike<br>
>> You,<br>
>>>>> am in communication with all members of that collective whom are,<br>
>> unlike<br>
>>>>> You (or Sudo since You speak for all of us Sudoers?), most<br>
>>>>> likely negatively affected by this proposition. But this discussion<br>
>> really<br>
>>>>> should take place at the Omni meeting and/or on the omnilogistics<br>
>> list, or<br>
>>>>> at the very least, on backspace's list or at their meeting, since You<br>
>> are<br>
>>>>> talking about building something in Backspace, not the other way<br>
>> around...<br>
>>>>> if that makes sense?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> This area you are speaking of is not Backspace 'with plans' to use that<br>
>>>>> room - any more than Sudo has 'plans' to use its room: Sudo is already<br>
>> in<br>
>>>>> that room, and Backspace is are already in their area too (a small<br>
>> cluster<br>
>>>>> of rooms). The area is clearly marked on the floorplan as Backspace and<br>
>>>>> this use has been discussed numerous times in meetings for a long<br>
>> time, as<br>
>>>>> has its rehabilitation, because its in poor shape.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Backspace is a small group with an enormous burden of tasks with<br>
>> respect<br>
>>>>> to rehabing that space and getting operations up and running. Sudo is a<br>
>>>>> comparatively large group with comparatively far less to do in<br>
>>>>> Sudo's own space to be functional. Backspace has a LOT to do with far<br>
>> less<br>
>>>>> resources, and I would ask that folks be kind to Backspace when<br>
>> demanding<br>
>>>>> things like build dates. Build dates are only a part of the timeline.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> What it (worryingly to me) feels like is that You are insinuating is<br>
>> that<br>
>>>>> this is not Backspace, it is rather Your space to do whatever You<br>
>> think is<br>
>>>>> best with it. The corollary to this is that Backspace's existence is<br>
>>>>> itself also merely a 'plan' - I assure you, it is not only that. That<br>
>> you<br>
>>>>> do not go to Backspace meetings, doesnt mean that it, or the people in<br>
>> it,<br>
>>>>> do not exist. Yes, it is new, like the cafe, but it is also been a<br>
>> part of<br>
>>>>> the omni project for a while with all of the real life effort that<br>
>> entails.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Please lets all be kind to one another? We have only been in the<br>
>> building<br>
>>>>> one week. There is a lot of shared space in the Omni, and I think its<br>
>> fair<br>
>>>>> to say that a really compelling case has to be made if you need to<br>
>> build<br>
>>>>> something in someone else's space, rather than Sudo's own space or<br>
>>>>> in shared space.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> In addition, I would guess it would not be not clear to backspace that<br>
>> a<br>
>>>>> rack of servers anywhere in the building actually will necessarily<br>
>> benefit<br>
>>>>> them or anyone else that is not Sudo. Pretty much the only thing I can<br>
>>>>> think if controlling door access and building-related infrastructure<br>
>> like a<br>
>>>>> couple of switches, maybe an AP controller. Does that take a whole<br>
>> rack?<br>
>>>>> Everything is Sudo.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> What I would suggest is that several possibilities for a rack outside<br>
>> of<br>
>>>>> Sudo are explored and planned, and that the options are presented at<br>
>> the<br>
>>>>> Omnilogistics meeting so they can be discussed by everyone, not just<br>
>>>>> Sudoers. Does that seem fair?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <<a href="mailto:mattsenate@gmail.com">mattsenate@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> So what you are saying is that You (on behalf of Backspace) have plans<br>
>>>>>> to add improvements to that room (at some point soon, requiring<br>
>> approval<br>
>>>>>> from the landlord and financed presumably by Backspace). Further,<br>
>> that You<br>
>>>>>> (on behalf of backspace with plans for using that room) do not want<br>
>> any<br>
>>>>>> network devices or other omni-wide usage in that space since you'll<br>
>> both be<br>
>>>>>> building in it and using it in some way for Backspace after you are<br>
>> done<br>
>>>>>> building in it.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Is that correct?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> If so, what are the anticipated the build dates? And what stage are<br>
>> you<br>
>>>>>> at in terms of approvals? And what stage are you at in terms of<br>
>> financing?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Thanks,<br>
>>>>>> Matt<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:29 PM, David Keenan <<a href="mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com">dkeenan44@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I agree with you Matt 1000% on assuming good faith.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I am super pleased that people take it upon themselves to tend to all<br>
>>>>>>> that needs doing - it was in the first line of my first two initial<br>
>> emails<br>
>>>>>>> on this project.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Putting servers into backspace right now may seems like the easiest /<br>
>>>>>>> OSPF as a temporary, provisional measure for a couple of days.. I<br>
>>>>>>> wonder, will it be just as easy to remove them in a few days when we<br>
>>>>>>> begin laying up drywall in there and start refinishing that room,<br>
>> filling<br>
>>>>>>> it with debris?<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> After the room is finished, if the servers are too loud for sudo/ccl<br>
>> 's<br>
>>>>>>> 3.2k sq ft room - how loud do you think it will sound in a room a<br>
>>>>>>> fraction the size with practitioners in it trying to treat folks with<br>
>>>>>>> ailments, or get a relaxing tuia-na massage, or meditate, or<br>
>> quietly work<br>
>>>>>>> / read etc? A absolutely central idea of backspace is being a quiet<br>
>> space,<br>
>>>>>>> while 41U of servers sounds not unlike a jet engine in my experience.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Y'all, I really do have sudo's best interests at heart, and I would<br>
>>>>>>> urge everyone reading this that expressing concerns like these is<br>
>> not any<br>
>>>>>>> attempt to stomp on our collective creative do-o-cratic urges, but<br>
>> simply<br>
>>>>>>> an good-hearted attempt, however adumbrated or limited it may be, to<br>
>> be<br>
>>>>>>> practical and thoughtful by incorporating germane variables into a<br>
>> viable<br>
>>>>>>> server room plan that might lie outside your current matrix.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <<a href="mailto:mattsenate@gmail.com">mattsenate@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Don't micro-manage creativity.<br>
>>>>>>>> Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems<br>
>>>>>>>> right now; this will not always be true.<br>
>>>>>>>> Assume good faith.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions<br>
>> are:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very<br>
>> soon.<br>
>>>>>>>> What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for<br>
>>>>>>>> network devices, without intractable costs.<br>
>>>>>>>> What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are<br>
>>>>>>>> convenient and already appropriate for setting up network devices<br>
>> (fast,<br>
>>>>>>>> easy) and (b) places that allow for integrating network devices<br>
>> into the<br>
>>>>>>>> heating/cooling systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require<br>
>>>>>>>> coordination, approval, and implementation with potential extra<br>
>> costs).<br>
>>>>>>>> What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon<br>
>> as<br>
>>>>>>>> possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> // Matt<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <<a href="mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com">dkeenan44@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into<br>
>> the<br>
>>>>>>>>> basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <<a href="mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com">dkeenan44@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the<br>
>>>>>>>>>> blower from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap.<br>
>> On the west<br>
>>>>>>>>>> side, there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans,<br>
>> plus<br>
>>>>>>>>>> windows above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above<br>
>> the<br>
>>>>>>>>>> barr-room bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So,<br>
>> re: cool<br>
>>>>>>>>>> air (without a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we<br>
>> could pull<br>
>>>>>>>>>> cool air from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack,<br>
>> and vent<br>
>>>>>>>>>> heat from the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the<br>
>> furnaces<br>
>>>>>>>>>> use, or vent heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or<br>
>> vent perhaps<br>
>>>>>>>>>> to that lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to<br>
>> trigger A/C from<br>
>>>>>>>>>> the compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the<br>
>> rest of the<br>
>>>>>>>>>> time.<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to<br>
>>>>>>>>>> exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it<br>
>> come/go -<br>
>>>>>>>>>> needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and<br>
>> OOC. It's<br>
>>>>>>>>>> a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at<br>
>> help<br>
>>>>>>>>>> sorting out, and I would really love it if we could.<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the<br>
>> basement<br>
>>>>>>>>>> and space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another<br>
>> equally<br>
>>>>>>>>>> pressing aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may<br>
>> be a good<br>
>>>>>>>>>> idea to set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google,<br>
>> but I am<br>
>>>>>>>>>> open to suggestions about how best to comprise this.<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> Love<br>
>>>>>>>>>> David<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <<a href="mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com">dkeenan44@gmail.com</a><br>
>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> servers and very grateful to all who are putting energy and<br>
>> effort into<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> this.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> others' space and shared space, I feel the only real missing<br>
>> piece in the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty<br>
>> much<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> other group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building -<br>
>> especially<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> for their very own space which they have already been promised<br>
>> are<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> technically in possession of.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> place things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack<br>
>> should<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *not* go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> the building, I think that's a conversation that should include<br>
>> others in<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> the building too, not just sudoers, because it affects others'<br>
>> planning and<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> use of space.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> build-out, and all buildout really should be discussed within<br>
>> the OOC as a<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> whole. This doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings -<br>
>> its simply<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> a way to try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in<br>
>> concert with<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> other groups in the space.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack<br>
>> into<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> what is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace),<br>
>> that<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> particular conversation should be had with that *group* from the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the<br>
>> building<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take<br>
>> place<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *only* on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> sudoers (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently<br>
>> needs a lot of<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> work - apparently, many people can only envision as a place for<br>
>> garbage, or<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> to get to utility panels.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does<br>
>> not<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage<br>
>> here<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *time* to do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the<br>
>> building.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> I mean, Backspace has far more intense permitting and structural<br>
>> issues to<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> address - we're getting architectural drawings (I had the<br>
>> architect over<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> yesterday partly for this reason), and planning it out<br>
>> thoughtfully - this<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> is not going to happen in one week or even one month. Also,<br>
>> Backspacers are<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> a much smaller, newer group than Sudo, in which almost everyone<br>
>> has day<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> jobs and simply can't be there alla the time - they are not on<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at least any more<br>
>> than all of<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo should be on backspace's list.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers /<br>
>> bodyworkers,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena,<br>
>> and Sarah.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be<br>
>> discussed<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as<br>
>> applying to any<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> discussions about how articulate their model, including how best<br>
>> to build<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> out, refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that<br>
>> if you<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> blow away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a<br>
>> different use,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> you are also potentially actually talking about removing an<br>
>> individual from<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I<br>
>> think it<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into<br>
>> backspace in<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers<br>
>> there that<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what<br>
>> I mean<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> here.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also<br>
>> be<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> had with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the<br>
>> omnilogistics list),<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> especially if you see the servers as serving the entire<br>
>> building, not just<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too -<br>
>> easily enough<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.)<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I<br>
>> imagine sudo<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on<br>
>> things,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they<br>
>> should be in<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for<br>
>> permitting<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The<br>
>> electrical<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really<br>
>> never entered<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of<br>
>> power and<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful<br>
>> planning re:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits<br>
>> are<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address<br>
>> that, and then<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for<br>
>> safety's sake<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> if nothing else. My 2c.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> David<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:luis.murillo.plos@gmail.com">luis.murillo.plos@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some<br>
>> errands/TCB<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> will swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <<a href="mailto:somebody@riseup.net">somebody@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh<br>
>> list<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was not<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thx!<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: <a href="mailto:hol@gaskill.com">hol@gaskill.com</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Keenan <<a href="mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com">dkeenan44@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CC: <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >the compressor for that could also provide cooling for the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> servers.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are good<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things may<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool<br>
>> air<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> letting convection do the work. if there's no objection, we<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could set<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> coax to a<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so i'll<br>
>> be<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> around<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cheers<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey guys,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server space! I<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanna help.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The main issue with using this particular room is, as you can<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see by<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness collective is<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already paying rent on that particular area (NW groundfloor<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corner) and will be making their own changes to that space.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Backspace<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attraction for<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of fans plus<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes up<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Backspace,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont need<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In general I would think, before using other essentially<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-shared<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would have to<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually rule out why building the room in other locations,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like Sudo<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that particular<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> location<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in someone else's area is really the only place it could work.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for going on<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 years<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would not be my first location in the entire building for<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of reasons.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> main<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> street.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We could find a room in the basement. There is excellent<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ventilation<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the<br>
>> furnaces<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are in<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into that<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> venting to<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually help heat the building, which could save on energy.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement - the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> compressor<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for that could also provide cooling for the servers.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green solution<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the building.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :)<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody <<a href="mailto:somebody@riseup.net">somebody@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2014/07/05:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building, and so<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> far the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only place that seems the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most appropriate to have the server room is the room by the<br>
>> bar.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This area is the most ideal in the whole building because the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> air<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flow,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it is<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> where the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet access enters the building.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> group<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we<br>
>> should<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consider<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> temperature and<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise levels are the main issues.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of this<br>
>> process<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself (Daniel).<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot" target="_blank">https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot" target="_blank">https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thx!<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a> <mailto:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mesh mailing list<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:mesh@lists.sudoroom.org">mesh@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> mesh mailing list<br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:mesh@lists.sudoroom.org">mesh@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> - --<br>
>> Jenny<br>
>> <a href="http://jennyryan.net" target="_blank">http://jennyryan.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://sudomesh.org" target="_blank">http://sudomesh.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://thevirtualcampfire.org" target="_blank">http://thevirtualcampfire.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://technomadic.tumblr.com" target="_blank">http://technomadic.tumblr.com</a><br>
>><br>
>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`<br>
>> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."<br>
>> - -Laurie Anderson<br>
>><br>
>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining<br>
>> it."<br>
>> -Hannah Arendt<br>
>><br>
>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."<br>
>> - -Stéphane Mallarmé<br>
>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`<br>
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>><br>
>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTu09bAAoJEHTWWpBUSeDhH6EH/j1bTpIq3giexRka2qRgtOmI<br>
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>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> sudo-discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org">sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
- --<br>
Jenny<br>
<a href="http://jennyryan.net" target="_blank">http://jennyryan.net</a><br>
<a href="http://sudomesh.org" target="_blank">http://sudomesh.org</a><br>
<a href="http://thevirtualcampfire.org" target="_blank">http://thevirtualcampfire.org</a><br>
<a href="http://technomadic.tumblr.com" target="_blank">http://technomadic.tumblr.com</a><br>
<br>
`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`<br>
"Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."<br>
- -Laurie Anderson<br>
<br>
"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining<br>
it."<br>
-Hannah Arendt<br>
<br>
"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."<br>
- -Stéphane Mallarmé<br>
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`<br>
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux)<br>
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