<p dir="ltr">I'm sorry, Torrie, I really am....sudoconsensus may be needed?<br></p>
<div class="cm_quote" style=" color: #787878">On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Torrie Fischer <<a href="mailto:tdfischer@hackerbots.net">tdfischer@hackerbots.net</a>> wrote:</div><br><div id="oldcontent" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><blockquote style=""><p dir="ltr">This is very not important to me because I don't want to read this on sudo
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discuss so I'm unsubscribing from sudo discuss for a while because everyone
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keeps including sudo-discuss as if it somehow makes everything better.
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On Monday, April 06, 2015 11:59:40 AM Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:
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> This is very important to me, because I said I wouldn't keep including sudo
<br>
> discuss, and now i'm going back on that
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> but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
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> so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
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> whether mine or not
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> so I'm responding to sudo discuss
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> to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
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>
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> sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
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>
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> *People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
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> *Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic behavior
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> before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
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> *and a reformed community, *
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> *where they can try to learn and grow. *
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>
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> *If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with them?*
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>
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> * If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, *
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> *and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
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> *to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like the
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> state does,*
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> * if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution*
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> * besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
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> *whenever possible. *
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>
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> *NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
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>
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> *IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one
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> mediation, *
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> *and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being
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> banned, and see the issues clear*
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> * my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
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> * I often think WildCat is right,*
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> * but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
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>
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> *You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
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> *In Some Case In Your Life, *
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> *If You Recognize The Process At All*
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>
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> *If You're Willing To Work On It, *
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>
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> *The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
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> * In Dire Circumstances *
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> *Not In Any Case You Want*
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> * And Every Case All The Time*
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> * Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
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>
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> *I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
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>
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> PERSONALLY I feel:
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> Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously exiled
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> and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to go. This
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> is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it and ignore
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> people
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>
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> *If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
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> pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
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>
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> *What would you do with them? *
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> *Put them all in one country? *
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> *Kind of like a concentration of them?*
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> * Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
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>
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> *We need to help people grow, and *
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> *if you consider yourself an organizer *
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> *or a helper of the world*
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> * it IS your job to help people grow a*
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> *nd give people another chance, *
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> *provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
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>
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> *It has to come from them. Yes.*
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> *And it is coming from Darin, *
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> *however slowly he's learning*
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>
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> Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
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> And you're scaring people,
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> with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
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>
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> now that you think you have power
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>
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> *i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking another
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> break.*
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>
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> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
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> >
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> > On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com>
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> >
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> > wrote:
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> >> Also with that one month ban I feel that from then on there would need to
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> >> be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time I saw
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> >> him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a couple
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> >> of
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> >> blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to walk
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> >> away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing the
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> >> line with these people but what folks need to understand is that each of
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> >> these people have been going through conflict mediation in this space so
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> >> the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for the
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> >> taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. Though to
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> >> be
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> >> accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more members of
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> >> the space to address them.
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> >>
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> >> On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com> wrote:
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> >>> So I have known Darin for years and he has been called out for all of
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> >>> this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him
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> >>> misgendering
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> >>> me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were several
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> >>> witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a defensive
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> >>> response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs. sexual
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> >>> harassment
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> >>> is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who have
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> >>> called
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> >>> him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by Joe
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> >>> but
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> >>> but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose a
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> >>> month
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> >>> ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have serious
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> >>> consequences.
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> >>>
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> >>> On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana@gmail.com> wrote:
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> >>>> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this thread...
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> >>>>
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> >>>> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the chance
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> >>>> to do so before a ban goes through.
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> >>>>
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> >>>> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
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> >>>>
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> >>>> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is justified
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> >>>> and potent.
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> >>>>
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> >>>> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
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> >>>> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after we
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> >>>> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
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> >>>> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic shit
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> >>>> like
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> >>>> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is actively
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> >>>> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from
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> >>>> harassment
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> >>>> daily.
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> >>>>
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> >>>> Misgendering:
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> >>>> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you Wildcat, because your
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> >>>> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
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> >>>> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in general, and
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> >>>> ALSO camaraderie with you.
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> >>>> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with continuous
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> >>>> editing on my part, as it is for others.
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> >>>> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best to
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> >>>> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too, now that
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> >>>> this
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> >>>> information is available
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> >>>>
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> >>>> Sexual Language:
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> >>>> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin and
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> >>>> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, bc it
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> >>>> was
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> >>>> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
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> >>>> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his tongue, but
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> >>>> not an implication of action either, more like expression.
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> >>>> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
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> >>>> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private
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> >>>> thoughts
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> >>>> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
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> >>>>
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> >>>> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
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> >>>>
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> >>>> Love, seriously, love,
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
<br>
> >>>> tdfischer@hackerbots.net> wrote:
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> >>>>
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> >>>> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the hundreds
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> >>>> of
<br>
> >>>> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
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> >>>>
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> >>>> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. I
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> >>>> don't want
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> >>>> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who is
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> >>>> fighting
<br>
> >>>> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather just
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> >>>> hack a
<br>
> >>>> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has their
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> >>>> shit
<br>
> >>>> together and everyone gets along.
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> >>>>
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> >>>> My Ƀ0.02.
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> >>>>
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> >>>> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
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> >>>> > These are community issues not personal issues.
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> >>>> >
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> >>>> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical@comcast.net>
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> >>>>
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> >>>> wrote:
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> >>>> > > Sudoers,
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> >>>> > >
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> >>>> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> issues of
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> other
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > than
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> >>>> > > this public mailing list? Why anyone would want to go to Sudo room
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> after
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > reading this mailing list is beyond my comprehension. And it
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> really is a
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > great place. Can anyone think of another venue for these types of
<br>
> >>>> > > discussions?
<br>
> >>>> > >
<br>
> >>>> > > Tracy
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> >>>> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com>
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> wrote:
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> >>>> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> and
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> >>>>
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> >>>> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> handle
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> >>>>
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> >>>> > > this like an adult."
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> >>>> > >
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> >>>> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> "you need
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also clarified
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> >>>>
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> >>>> by
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
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> >>>> > >
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> >>>> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> did not
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > give any details of what happened.
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> >>>> > >
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> >>>> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com>
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > > wrote:
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> >>>> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces
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> >>>>
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> >>>> policy
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> >>>>
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> >>>> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as
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> >>>>
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> >>>> recent
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> the
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> >>>>
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> >>>> > >> safer
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> >>>> > >> spaces policy by aggressive behavior (aggressive swearing,
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> intentional
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> >>>>
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> >>>> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> aggressive way
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has had a
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> history
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> >>>>
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> >>>> > >> of
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> >>>> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> harassment and
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > >> inappropriate behavior.
<br>
> >>>> > >>
<br>
> >>>> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> feel
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
<br>
> >>>> > >>
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> >>>> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> Centi.
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior.
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> Pidgen has
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> problems -
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> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
<br>
> >>>> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on
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> >>>> > >> the
<br>
> >>>> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
<br>
> >>>> > >
<br>
> >>>> > > _______________________________________________
<br>
> >>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
<br>
> >>>> > > sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
<br>
> >>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
<br>
> >>>>
<br>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
<br>
> >>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
<br>
> >>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
<br>
> >>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >> _______________________________________________
<br>
> >> sudo-discuss mailing list
<br>
> >> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
<br>
> >> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
<br>
<br>
</p>
</blockquote></div>