I'm bowing out of this one...not taking back what I said, I'm just not inclined to argue with any sudoers like this. Discuss yes, argue...not so much. Nor am I interested in having to take broadsides or ad hominem attacks from people I've never met in person before. It wasn't my intention to further derail the conversation, but to point out something that I felt was being glossed over that needed to be acknowledged.

Carry on as you see fit.

-chrisbee


On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 PM, rhodey <rhodey@anhonesteffort.org> wrote:
Can we take this off list please? If people would like to discuss this
further I offer my help in arranging a meeting where anyone interested
can do so.

--
-- rhodey ˙ ͜ʟ˙

On 12/02/2013 08:54 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>
> David:
>
> I'm not telepathic enough to know what he MEANT, but what he SAID was
> off-the-scale obnoxious and offensive.
>
> YEAH, we all have to be aware of our surroundings, and blah blah blah.
>
> Guess what?  It doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  Look at the
> crime maps of Oakland.  The whole fucking downtown is a fucking war
> zone, up and down Broadway, at all times including in broad daylight.
>
> Meanwhile SudoList lurches between the looney left and the looney right:
> "fuck the police" one week, and "you're on your own, bub" the next week,
> while the door keypad is a broken mess and you could bleed to death on
> the street trying to get into the building.  That plus lax password
> policy, which Max is thankfully trying to change, before "be aware of
> your surroundings" also ends up meaning "because they might get inside."
>
> And since they DID get inside your HOME, should you have carried a
> pistol in your home as well?
>
> How'bout hire a professional security contractor to install a reliable
> door entry system?  Or are we also supposed to pretend we know how to
> perform open-heart surgery, after all, it begins with the word "open" as
> in "free beer," so why not?
>
> Let's be clear about this: looney left anti-police bravado, and looney
> right you're-on-your-own-bub bravado, add up to a hill of horse shit.
> If the city is crawling with predators, the problem isn't you or I or
> even Chris Ad-Hom Hand Grenade Bee: the problem is the fucking
> predators, and the thing to do with them is lock them up where they
> can't prey on people who are merely trying to live their lives.
>
> And I am NOT accusing Chris Bee of siding with the muggers.  I'm
> accusing him of espousing the looney right wing you're-on-your-own
> bullshit, wrapped up in looney left language about entitlement.
>
> People damn well ARE entitled to walk down the fucking street without
> being in constant fear for their lives.
>
> Enough was enough a few thousand murders, rapes, and robberies ago.
>
> -G.
>
>
>
> ======
>
>
>
>
> On 13-12-02-Mon 7:22 PM, David Keenan wrote:
>> Whoa! I don't think Chris is saying 'Blame the victim' at all. We've
>> probably all been in dicey situations and been threatened at the very
>> least, emotions run high on this issue but I'd urge you not to channel
>> your anger around that on Chris. To my mind, he's just saying we all
>> have to be aware of our surroundings and safety no matter where we
>> are, which makes sense. Not that its the victim's fault. As Bruce
>> Schneier has outlined, there are tradeoffs between freedom and safety
>> that we navigate every day - sometimes we suffer because of it, and
>> that fucking sucks, but does that mean we all should move to the
>> suburbs? I've been robbed in my own home, which feels a damn sight
>> safer than walking down Broadway, and I think that was Chris's point.
>> Please don't accuse him of siding with muggers or some such sentiment.
>> No one's going there -
>>
>> Love,
>> David
>>
>> On Monday, December 2, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Re. Sonja:
>>
>>     Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had
>>     a gun pointed at my guts right in the doorway.  Chances are at
>>     least one person reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at
>>     least four I know aren't.
>>
>>     Re. ChrisBee:
>>
>>     Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know
>>     of who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and
>>     stuff stolen coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly
>>     one or two I missed.
>>
>>     Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?...
>>     she shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...?  I take
>>     it you agree with that too.
>>
>>     I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context
>>     of my reply is clear:
>>
>>     "Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions
>>     about this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to
>>     such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
>>     privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what is."
>>     Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying."
>>
>>     So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in
>>     a safe location where you're less likely to be subjected to
>>     violence on the street?  I'm going to say something to you that I
>>     haven't said to anyone in a damn long time:  Go fuck yourself.
>>
>>     -G.
>>
>>
>>     =====
>>
>>
>>     On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
>>>     Yeah but what if taking responsibility for your safety means not
>>>     going where you've been robbed before?
>>>
>>>     On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
>>>
>>>         (shakes head, sighs)
>>>
>>>         I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases,
>>>         putting the onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is
>>>         totally missing the point that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR
>>>         OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are (relatively) more
>>>         or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well, it's
>>>         wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where
>>>         to begin.
>>>
>>>         Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read
>>>         discussions about this based around "how safe is so-and-so
>>>         compared to such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
>>>         privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what
>>>         is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I
>>>         like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm
>>>         pointing this out. I don't want anyone to be lulled into a
>>>         false sense of security/anxiety by thinking that just because
>>>         you're in one area bad shit is less prone to happen to you,
>>>         or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
>>>         on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever
>>>         situations may come our way, alone or otherwise. Good
>>>         Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops are...well, the odds of
>>>         them being there when you "need" them (I personally don't)
>>>         are next to nil, and they only seem to make things
>>>         complicated after the fact.
>>>
>>>         What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space
>>>         that meets the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
>>>
>>>         Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many
>>>         important discussions get derailed like this, and right now I
>>>         think this is pretty high on our list of immediate concerns.
>>>
>>>         And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue
>>>         I'm all ears/eyes.
>>>
>>>         Respectfully,
>>>
>>>         -chrisbee
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss
>>>         <sonja.trauss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and
>>>             Alice is - I saw "8th st" and "near BART" and thought you
>>>             were talking about w Oakland BART.
>>>
>>>
>>>             On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is
>>>                 "pretty mixed" racially and culturally, what is it
>>>                 that leads you to conclude that Amber was talking
>>>                 about black people, and commenting on race?
>>>
>>>                 Pete
>>>
>>>
>>>                 On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss
>>>                 <sonja.trauss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>                     Yeah you need to give black people more credit.
>>>                     Did you know, some of them like coffee shops
>>>                     also? some of them can read? Some of them have
>>>                     computers? Some of them might become sudo
>>>                     members? Black people are pretty similar to
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
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>>>     http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
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>
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