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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space 6hrs/1x/month
**starting Sunday** (Vicky Knox)
2. Re: [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space 6hrs/1x/month
**starting Sunday** (Vicky Knox)
3. Re: [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space 6hrs/1x/month
**starting Sunday** (Marc Juul)
4. Re: [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space 6hrs/1x/month
**starting Sunday** (Anthony Di Franco)
5. Re: [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space 6hrs/1x/month
**starting Sunday** (Hol Gaskill)
6. Re: Breaking: Oakland to lead country in diverting
anti-terror funding to ubiquitous warrantless surveillance
(David Keenan)
7. Re: Can BAPS share SUDO table at Anarchist Bookfair?
(David Keenan)
8. Re: Can BAPS share SUDO table at Anarchist Bookfair?
(Gregg Horton)
9. Re: [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space 6hrs/1x/month
**starting Sunday** (William Budington)
10. Re: [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space 6hrs/1x/month
**starting Sunday** (Julio Rios)
11. George says "Rent is late. If not paid by Oct 15 3pm, then 5%
late fee". (Max Klein)
12. Re: George says "Rent is late. If not paid by Oct 15 3pm,
then 5% late fee". (Jenny Ryan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 00:25:00 -0700
From: Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>
To: juul@labitat.dk, Sudo Room discuss
<sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space
6hrs/1x/month **starting Sunday**
Message-ID:
<CAPwEF4poQp3XqrRkw3OgZLpGpctgq-KroZdhF36L2GcMAnobTg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Marc's response is justified, though I reject the language of the two
opening questions.
My conversation over the phone with Vivienne lead me to believe that she
was participating in a competition organized by her school and I didn't
carefully scan the email explanation that she sent me afterward to send to
the list. I am really down about my oversight and apologize for it.
I did learn the details of the competition's funding when she and a
colleague came to see the space and pick up the key the night before their
practice, and at that point I processed the explanation of the sponsorship
much differently than Marc. While she is not happy about the sponsor,
Vivienne's justification of pursuing this event was that this was a great
opportunity for her students to get a hold of resources and a learning
environment they would otherwise not have had. She wanted to be able to do
this event at a hackerspace because her ultimate goal was to use this
competition as a bridge to connect to a critical, hacker community (for
what this bridge is worth, given the obvious discrepancy). I felt at once
uneasy and understanding. I respect the sentiment that she expressed that
she needed to take the opportunity that was there, just as I am not quick
to jump to judgment of many of my bright and fascinating friends back home
who were in a position in which they (felt that they?) needed to join the
military in order to realistically afford higher education. That said, I
stand with Marc in my rejection of the military industrial complex (or
whatever you would like to call it), but I do not know the answer to more
nuanced questions of access to aspirational education within a race-class
divided society. I invite your conversation.
If Marc or anyone else would like to bring up this topic at the general
meeting, I could not make it this Wednesday but am available the following.
Vicky
On Oct 13, 2013 7:31 PM, "Marc Juul" <juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Do you all have any recommendations on how to expedite this? What is the
>> current status of the large room and using it for events?
>>
>> For background, this teacher origianally contacted info@sudoroom but
>> never got a response, and called the SR number today, slightly frantic. I
>> think it would be really awesome if we were able to help her out. This
>> event seems quite an incredible opportunity for young people.
>>
>
> What? What have you been smoking?
>
> The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot? Sponsored by Northrop Grumman?!Why are people assuming that this is something sudo room wants to support
> or in any way encourage?
>
> This sounds terrible. I am going to take this up at this Wednesdays sudo
> room meeting. I am completely against anything like this happening in or
> near sudo room in any way shape or form. I do not believe I am alone in
> feeling like this. I am both surprised and very disappointed that a
> critical and sceptical approach was not taken in dealing with something
> like this on behalf of sudo room.
>
> --
> Marc
>
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 00:29:32 -0700
From: Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>
To: Sudo Room discuss <sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>,
juul@labitat.dk
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space
6hrs/1x/month **starting Sunday**
Message-ID:
<CAPwEF4rdpvKAR6aXP6-mHKGQFWvgd9ghczpxm_H4Wdci3-_Fiw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Three last clarifications (please ask if you need any others):
1. The program did not cover the cost of renting a space, and Vivienne did
not pursue sponsors, but rather gathered money out-of-pocket. I did not ask
her her reasons for raising money independently, so I cannot weigh in with
any analysis. I could try asking her if any of you find this fact relevant.
2. The money she raised went straight (technically still a check in my
possession) to George to temporarily rent the smaller dance space for just
that Sunday.
3. For what it's worth, when I spoke with George about the practice, he was
(at least at that time) amenable to having high schoolers at 2141 should
they be equipped with signed parental waivers.
On Oct 14, 2013 12:25 AM, "Vicky Knox" <vknoxsironi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marc's response is justified, though I reject the language of the two
> opening questions.
>
> My conversation over the phone with Vivienne lead me to believe that she
> was participating in a competition organized by her school and I didn't
> carefully scan the email explanation that she sent me afterward to send to
> the list. I am really down about my oversight and apologize for it.
>
> I did learn the details of the competition's funding when she and a
> colleague came to see the space and pick up the key the night before their
> practice, and at that point I processed the explanation of the sponsorship
> much differently than Marc. While she is not happy about the sponsor,
> Vivienne's justification of pursuing this event was that this was a great
> opportunity for her students to get a hold of resources and a learning
> environment they would otherwise not have had. She wanted to be able to do
> this event at a hackerspace because her ultimate goal was to use this
> competition as a bridge to connect to a critical, hacker community (for
> what this bridge is worth, given the obvious discrepancy). I felt at once
> uneasy and understanding. I respect the sentiment that she expressed that
> she needed to take the opportunity that was there, just as I am not quick
> to jump to judgment of many of my bright and fascinating friends back home
> who were in a position in which they (felt that they?) needed to join the
> military in order to realistically afford higher education. That said, I
> stand with Marc in my rejection of the military industrial complex (or
> whatever you would like to call it), but I do not know the answer to more
> nuanced questions of access to aspirational education within a race-class
> divided society. I invite your conversation.
>
> If Marc or anyone else would like to bring up this topic at the general
> meeting, I could not make it this Wednesday but am available the following.
>
> Vicky
> On Oct 13, 2013 7:31 PM, "Marc Juul" <juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Do you all have any recommendations on how to expedite this? What is the
>>> current status of the large room and using it for events?
>>>
>>> For background, this teacher origianally contacted info@sudoroom but
>>> never got a response, and called the SR number today, slightly frantic. I
>>> think it would be really awesome if we were able to help her out. This
>>> event seems quite an incredible opportunity for young people.
>>>
>>
>> What? What have you been smoking?
>>
>> The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot? Sponsored by Northrop Grumman?!Why are people assuming that this is something sudo room wants to support
>> or in any way encourage?
>>
>> This sounds terrible. I am going to take this up at this Wednesdays sudo
>> room meeting. I am completely against anything like this happening in or
>> near sudo room in any way shape or form. I do not believe I am alone in
>> feeling like this. I am both surprised and very disappointed that a
>> critical and sceptical approach was not taken in dealing with something
>> like this on behalf of sudo room.
>>
>> --
>> Marc
>>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 01:34:48 -0700
From: Marc Juul <juul@labitat.dk>
To: Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>
Cc: Sudo Room discuss <sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space
6hrs/1x/month **starting Sunday**
Message-ID:
<CAL4ejvSV3vQkXH2pXLpdgNgMbZhZ-WHvSjANK6PHB91tZnDcRA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marc's response is justified, though I reject the language of the two
> opening questions.
>
> My conversation over the phone with Vivienne lead me to believe that she
> was participating in a competition organized by her school and I didn't
> carefully scan the email explanation that she sent me afterward to send to
> the list. I am really down about my oversight and apologize for it.
>
> I did learn the details of the competition's funding when she and a
> colleague came to see the space and pick up the key the night before their
> practice, and at that point I processed the explanation of the sponsorship
> much differently than Marc.
>
> While she is not happy about the sponsor, Vivienne's justification of
> pursuing this event was that this was a great opportunity for her students
> to get a hold of resources and a learning environment they would otherwise
> not have had. She wanted to be able to do this event at a hackerspace
> because her ultimate goal was to use this competition as a bridge to
> connect to a critical, hacker community (for what this bridge is worth,
> given the obvious discrepancy). I felt at once uneasy and understanding. I
> respect the sentiment that she expressed that she needed to take the
> opportunity that was there, just as I am not quick to jump to judgment of
> many of my bright and fascinating friends back home who were in a position
> in which they (felt that they?) needed to join the military in order to
> realistically afford higher education. That said, I stand with Marc in my
> rejection of the military industrial complex (or whatever you would like to
> call it), but I do not know the answer to more nuanced questions of access
> to aspirational education within a race-class divided society. I invite
> your conversation.
>
This is not a question of access to aspirational education within a
race-class divided society. The problem I'm having is that you (and
possibly others?) decided to facilitate something called The Air Force
Association's CyberPatriot Competition, with Northrop Grumman as sponsor,
with some form of association to sudo room. Whatever your personal
decision-making process was, you must have realized that at least some
members would strongly disagree with that decision, yet you moved forward
with short warning and without directly bringing the controversial topic in
front of the group for discussion and decision. This should have been taken
up at the weekly meeting. The fact that it was not obvious to you that this
event was controversial enough to warrant serious group discussion before
proceeding is problematic.
> If Marc or anyone else would like to bring up this topic at the general
> meeting, I could not make it this Wednesday but am available the following.
>
I will be there.
> Vicky
> On Oct 13, 2013 7:31 PM, "Marc Juul" <juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Do you all have any recommendations on how to expedite this? What is the
>>> current status of the large room and using it for events?
>>>
>>> For background, this teacher origianally contacted info@sudoroom but
>>> never got a response, and called the SR number today, slightly frantic. I
>>> think it would be really awesome if we were able to help her out. This
>>> event seems quite an incredible opportunity for young people.
>>>
>>
>> What? What have you been smoking?
>>
>> The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot? Sponsored by Northrop Grumman?!Why are people assuming that this is something sudo room wants to support
>> or in any way encourage?
>>
>> This sounds terrible. I am going to take this up at this Wednesdays sudo
>> room meeting. I am completely against anything like this happening in or
>> near sudo room in any way shape or form. I do not believe I am alone in
>> feeling like this. I am both surprised and very disappointed that a
>> critical and sceptical approach was not taken in dealing with something
>> like this on behalf of sudo room.
>>
>> --
>> Marc
>>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:05:53 -0700
From: Anthony Di Franco <di.franco@gmail.com>
To: Marc Juul <juul@labitat.dk>
Cc: Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>, Sudo Room discuss
<sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space
6hrs/1x/month **starting Sunday**
Message-ID:
<CAOJkv1r9ZiUkUrTvmOqU4syZwwQns0c6-cessof0smxy4u4N+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I share the desire to be critical of and proceed carefully with
associations with military-sponsored events.
I think it will be important for us to hear directly from the kids if
possible since they have by far the most to gain or lose in this question:
How do they view the sponsorship of the contest, what do they hope to get
from participating in the contest, what do they hope to gain from being at
sudo room (if we will have them)?
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 1:34 AM, Marc Juul <juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Marc's response is justified, though I reject the language of the two
>> opening questions.
>>
>> My conversation over the phone with Vivienne lead me to believe that she
>> was participating in a competition organized by her school and I didn't
>> carefully scan the email explanation that she sent me afterward to send to
>> the list. I am really down about my oversight and apologize for it.
>>
>> I did learn the details of the competition's funding when she and a
>> colleague came to see the space and pick up the key the night before their
>> practice, and at that point I processed the explanation of the sponsorship
>> much differently than Marc.
>>
>
>
>> While she is not happy about the sponsor, Vivienne's justification of
>> pursuing this event was that this was a great opportunity for her students
>> to get a hold of resources and a learning environment they would otherwise
>> not have had. She wanted to be able to do this event at a hackerspace
>> because her ultimate goal was to use this competition as a bridge to
>> connect to a critical, hacker community (for what this bridge is worth,
>> given the obvious discrepancy). I felt at once uneasy and understanding. I
>> respect the sentiment that she expressed that she needed to take the
>> opportunity that was there, just as I am not quick to jump to judgment of
>> many of my bright and fascinating friends back home who were in a position
>> in which they (felt that they?) needed to join the military in order to
>> realistically afford higher education. That said, I stand with Marc in my
>> rejection of the military industrial complex (or whatever you would like to
>> call it), but I do not know the answer to more nuanced questions of access
>> to aspirational education within a race-class divided society. I invite
>> your conversation.
>>
> This is not a question of access to aspirational education within a
> race-class divided society. The problem I'm having is that you (and
> possibly others?) decided to facilitate something called The Air Force
> Association's CyberPatriot Competition, with Northrop Grumman as sponsor,
> with some form of association to sudo room. Whatever your personal
> decision-making process was, you must have realized that at least some
> members would strongly disagree with that decision, yet you moved forward
> with short warning and without directly bringing the controversial topic in
> front of the group for discussion and decision. This should have been taken
> up at the weekly meeting. The fact that it was not obvious to you that this
> event was controversial enough to warrant serious group discussion before
> proceeding is problematic.
>
>> If Marc or anyone else would like to bring up this topic at the general
>> meeting, I could not make it this Wednesday but am available the following.
>>
> I will be there.
>
>
>> Vicky
>> On Oct 13, 2013 7:31 PM, "Marc Juul" <juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Vicky Knox <vknoxsironi@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you all have any recommendations on how to expedite this? What is
>>>> the current status of the large room and using it for events?
>>>>
>>>> For background, this teacher origianally contacted info@sudoroom but
>>>> never got a response, and called the SR number today, slightly frantic. I
>>>> think it would be really awesome if we were able to help her out. This
>>>> event seems quite an incredible opportunity for young people.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What? What have you been smoking?
>>>
>>> The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot? Sponsored by Northrop
>>> Grumman?! Why are people assuming that this is something sudo room
>>> wants to support or in any way encourage?
>>>
>>> This sounds terrible. I am going to take this up at this Wednesdays sudo
>>> room meeting. I am completely against anything like this happening in or
>>> near sudo room in any way shape or form. I do not believe I am alone in
>>> feeling like this. I am both surprised and very disappointed that a
>>> critical and sceptical approach was not taken in dealing with something
>>> like this on behalf of sudo room.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marc
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 18:13:41 +0000 (UTC)
From: Hol Gaskill <hol@gaskill.com>
To: di.franco@gmail.com
Cc: vknoxsironi@gmail.com, sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space
6hrs/1x/month **starting Sunday**
Message-ID: <1501999678.29738.1381774421665.JavaMail.mail@webmail09>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Northrop Grumman is historically, and still almost entirely an arms manufacturer. What if we had United Launch Alliance wanting to sponsor a rocketry program for kids? Where do we draw the perimeter around our organization? Google? PG&E? Taqueria Sinaloa? I think there are a few no-brainers both ways, and a vast expanse of grey area. Maybe we could have 2 levels of association for events - events that are endorsed by the group wholeheartedly and have no substantial conflicts of interest, and events where there is no question of value to the intended benefit recipients but some members have reservations about what it would imply if we were perceived to be associated as a group. Like, can't be added to the website or announced via sudo social media nodes, can't use our logo in their documentation of the event, etc. I think the comment about going over with the kids themselves about what sponsorship implies is spot on, maybe give us an opportunity to teach them about all the pa
triots that have overthrown their own governments for the better, the patriots that resist foreign occupation aaand i'll stop there.
Also, this particular event aside, the initial feedback seems to indicate that George is OK with some form of highschool-age kids participating at sudo room which could extend our educational value to the community. There is this program where HS students share time on cube sats - I'm trying to get a team formed at my high school in San Antonio, would be awesome if we could get some students from Oakland in on it. Pretty basic stuff, just writing software to flash up there and read sensors, then 'up'load the data back to earth. No warheads or anything.
Oct 14, 2013 10:06:19 AM, di.franco@gmail.com wrote:
I share the desire to be critical of and proceed carefully with associations with military-sponsored events.
>
I think it will be important for us to hear directly from the kids if possible since they have by far the most to gain or lose in this question: How do they view the sponsorship of the contest, what do they hope to get from participating in the contest, what do they hope to gain from being at sudo room (if we will have them)?
>
>
>On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 1:34 AM, Marc Juul juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
>
>On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Vicky Knox vknoxsironi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Marc's response is justified, though I reject the language of the two opening questions.
My conversation over the phone with Vivienne lead me to believe that she was participating in a competition organized by her school and I didn't carefully scan the email explanation that she sent me afterward to send to the list. I am really down about my oversight and apologize for it.
I did learn the details of the competition's funding when she and a colleague came to see the space and pick up the key the night before their practice, and at that point I processed the explanation of the sponsorship much differently than Marc.
?
>While she is not happy about the sponsor, Vivienne's justification of pursuing this event was that this was a great opportunity for her students to get a hold of resources and a learning environment they would otherwise not have had. She wanted to be able to do this event at a hackerspace because her ultimate goal was to use this competition as a bridge to connect to a critical, hacker community (for what this bridge is worth, given the obvious discrepancy). I felt at once uneasy and understanding. I respect the sentiment that she expressed that she needed to take the opportunity that was there, just as I am not quick to jump to judgment of many of my bright and fascinating friends back home who were in a position in which they (felt that they?) needed to join the military in order to realistically afford higher education. That said, I stand with Marc in my rejection of the military industrial complex (or whatever you would like to call it), but I do not know the answer to more nuan
ced questions of access to aspirational education within a race-class divided society. I invite your conversation.
This is not a question of access to aspirational education within a race-class divided society. The problem I'm having is that you (and possibly others?) decided to facilitate something called The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot Competition, with Northrop Grumman as sponsor, with some form of association to sudo room. Whatever your personal decision-making process was, you must have realized that at least some members would strongly disagree with that decision, yet you moved forward with short warning and without directly bringing the controversial topic in front of the group for discussion and decision. This should have been taken up at the weekly meeting. The fact that it was not obvious to you that this event was controversial enough to warrant serious group discussion before proceeding is problematic.
>
>
If Marc or anyone else would like to bring up this topic at the general meeting, I could not make it this Wednesday but am available the following.
I will be there.
>
?
>
Vicky
On Oct 13, 2013 7:31 PM, "Marc Juul" juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
>
>
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Vicky Knox vknoxsironi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Do you all have any recommendations on how to expedite this? What is the current status of the large room and using it for? events?
>
>For background, this teacher origianally contacted info@sudoroom but never got a response, and called the SR number today, slightly frantic. I think it would be really awesome if we were able to help her out. This event seems quite an incredible opportunity for young people.
>
>What? What have you been smoking?
>
>The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot? Sponsored by Northrop Grumman?! Why are people assuming that this is something sudo room wants to support or in any way encourage?
>
>This sounds terrible. I am going to take this up at this Wednesdays
sudo room meeting. I am completely against anything like this happening
in or near sudo room in any way shape or form. I do not believe I am
alone in feeling like this. I am both surprised and very disappointed
that a critical and sceptical approach was not taken in dealing with
something like this on behalf of sudo room.
>
>--
>Marc
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
sudo-discuss mailing list
>
sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>sudo-discuss mailing list
>sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:37:26 -0700
From: David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
To: "sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
<sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Breaking: Oakland to lead country in
diverting anti-terror funding to ubiquitous warrantless surveillance
Message-ID:
<CABhLtjwtG_erxgTArKWMy_QELRw-egbH6EBRdkn4vJ0pbu2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
this DAC shit is totally out of control. We have to start working on making
the enormous problems it represents visible to everyone.
I'd like it we could fold activism & awareness around the DAC into the
cryptoparty, or have a cryptoparty around brainstorming how to tackle this
issue locally.
Solidarity,
david
On Sunday, October 13, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>
> Re. the police using Facebook and Google, and Stephen Spiker's question
> "what happens when someone doesn't like me and has access to all that
> information?":
>
> Right now 41% of employers use Facebook to screen job applicants and
> monitor employees. That creates an _enormous_ chilling effect on speech.
>
> And, credit agencies are also using Facebook to assign
> creditworthiness-by-association. If your "friends" have bad credit, your
> own credit rating goes down. That creates an _enormous_ chilling effect on
> freedom of association.
>
> With all the anarchists, left-libertarians, and civil liberties hawks
> onboard here, where's the outrage about those abuses?
>
> Or have we become smug in our status as geeks, whose economics are secure
> even if we wear the circle-A flag into the office and into job interviews?
> Do we care about Joe Average Worker whose job may be dangling by a thread,
> whose boss may be a diehard Fox Newz enthusiast, and who might end up
> unemployed and out in the streets for voicing an "unpopular" opinion
> online...?
>
> Is that a paradigm example of why Marxists consider the "intelligentsia"
> to be an unreliable class as far as solidarity with workers is concerned?
> Are we better than that?, or not?
>
> --
>
> The primary difference between NSA and Google is that you can vote for
> NSA's boss every four years, but Google has better marketing.
>
> The root issue is _collection_. Data that aren't collected, can't be
> abused. If you're on Facebook, if you use GMail or Google Voice, or if you
> carry around a "smart" phone with a battery that can't be removed, you're
> already subjected to a degree of surveillance that NSA reserves for members
> of Al Qaeda.
>
> If you don't like the Oakland Police getting access to the data, the place
> to start is with the mega-corps that collect the data. Complaining about
> the police using data that huge corporations collect, without complaining
> about the mega-corps collecting the data, is a self-contradiction.
>
> Lastly, shot-spotters shouldn't be controversial, even among those of us
> who support the personal rights interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. A
> gunshot on a city street means one of two things: a criminal has just shot
> a victim, or a criminal's would-be victim has just shot their attacker in
> self-defense. Either of those things merits getting the police and
> paramedics on the scene, pronto.
>
> -G.
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
> On 13-10-13-Sun 7:13 PM, Eddan Katz wrote:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/technology/privacy-fears-as-surveillance-grows-in-cities.html<http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/technology/privacy-fears-as-surveillance-grows-in-cities.html?_r=0>
>
> ------------------------------
> October 13, 2013
> **Privacy Fears as Surveillance Grows in Cities** ** By SOMINI SENGUPTA<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/somini_sengupta/index.html>
> ****
> ****
>
> OAKLAND, Calif. ? Federal grants of $7 million awarded to this city were
> meant largely to help thwart terror attacks<http://aapa.files.cms-plus.com/PDFs/FY2009PSGPGuidanceFINAL.pdf> at
> its bustling port. But instead, the money is going to a police initiative
> that will collect and analyze reams of surveillance data from around town ?
> from gunshot-detection sensors in the barrios of East Oakland to license
> plate readers mounted on police cars patrolling the city?s upscale hills.
>
> The new system, scheduled to begin next summer, is the latest example of
> how cities are compiling and processing large amounts of information, known
> as big data, for routine law enforcement. And the system underscores how
> technology has enabled the tracking of people in many aspects of life.
>
> The police can monitor a fire hose of social media posts to look for
> evidence of criminal activities; transportation agencies can track
> commuters? toll payments when drivers use an electronic pass; and the
> National Security Agency, as news reports this summer revealed, scooped up
> telephone records of millions of cellphone customers in the United States.
>
> Like the Oakland effort, other pushes to use new surveillance tools in law
> enforcement are supported with federal dollars. The New York Police
> Department, aided by federal financing, has a big data system that links
> 3,000 surveillance cameras with license plate readers, radiation sensors,
> criminal databases and terror suspect lists. Police in Massachusetts have
> used federal money to buy automated license plate scanners. And police in
> Texas have bought a drone with homeland security money, something that
> Alameda County, which Oakland is part of, also tried but shelved after
> public protest.
>
> Proponents of the Oakland initiative, formally known as the <http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center/_files/Port%20of%20Oakland%20DAC%20Report.pdf/_info/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing listsudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org');>http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:40:07 -0700
From: David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
To: "sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
<sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Can BAPS share SUDO table at Anarchist
Bookfair?
Message-ID:
<CABhLtjyubjb=bio9g_PGa6GdMtA-e2D+gXVk8vv+W6vga1DtSA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
BAPS is super happy that we can share SUDO's table..thank you! YES!!
David
On Sunday, October 13, 2013, Jenny Ryan wrote:
> Totally down! I replied in Gregg's thread that it would be grand to share
> a space with BAPS, and also lolspace if they're interested :)
>
> Jenny
> http://jennyryan.net
> http://thepyre.org
> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
>
> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
> -Laurie Anderson
>
> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it."
> -Hannah Arendt
>
> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
> -St?phane Mallarm?
> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:04 PM, William Budington <bill@inputoutput.io<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'bill@inputoutput.io');>
> > wrote:
>
>> Hey David,
>>
>> That sucks! It's been a few days and I haven't heard any objections,
>> and I think it would be wonderful if BAPS shared a table with Sudo. I
>> think this means "yes" unless anyone feels the overwhelming need to
>> block?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:58:30 -0700, David Keenan wrote:
>> > hey guys,
>> >
>> > Public School just found out apparently there is no room for us this
>> year
>> > at the Bookfair.. strange! And very sad!
>> >
>> > Is there any way the Public School might squish into the SUDO table at
>> the
>> > bookfair super ultra pretty pleaze?
>> >
>> > sadness,
>> > David
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>> > sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
>> 'sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org');>
>> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
>> 'sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org');>
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:46:52 -0700
From: Gregg Horton <greggahorton@gmail.com>
To: David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
Cc: "sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
<sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Can BAPS share SUDO table at Anarchist
Bookfair?
Message-ID: <525C3C1C.5030701@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
As an organizer of the bookfair, i should express we have a bit of an
issue with the sharing of tables.
it is not up to any of the tablers to decide who shares a table with
them. if they're willing to share a table then they should let us know
because there are other people who requested first. We want to make
sure that anarchist projects get prioritized.
On Mon Oct 14 11:40:07 2013, David Keenan wrote:
> BAPS is super happy that we can share SUDO's table..thank you! YES!!
> David
>
> On Sunday, October 13, 2013, Jenny Ryan wrote:
>
> Totally down! I replied in Gregg's thread that it would be grand
> to share a space with BAPS, and also lolspace if they're interested :)
>
> Jenny
> http://jennyryan.net <http://jennyryan.net/>
> http://thepyre.org <http://thepyre.org/>
> http://thevirtualcampfire.org <http://thevirtualcampfire.org/>
> http://technomadic.tumblr.com <http://technomadic.tumblr.com/>
>
> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
> -Laurie Anderson
>
> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of
> defining it."
> -Hannah Arendt
>
> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
> -St?phane Mallarm?
> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:04 PM, William Budington
> <bill@inputoutput.io <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'bill@inputoutput.io');>> wrote:
>
> Hey David,
>
> That sucks! It's been a few days and I haven't heard any
> objections,
> and I think it would be wonderful if BAPS shared a table with
> Sudo. I
> think this means "yes" unless anyone feels the overwhelming
> need to
> block?
>
> Bill
>
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:58:30 -0700, David Keenan wrote:
> > hey guys,
> >
> > Public School just found out apparently there is no room for
> us this year
> > at the Bookfair.. strange! And very sad!
> >
> > Is there any way the Public School might squish into the
> SUDO table at the
> > bookfair super ultra pretty pleaze?
> >
> > sadness,
> > David
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org');>
> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org');>
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:11:46 -0700
From: William Budington <bill@inputoutput.io>
To: sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space
6hrs/1x/month **starting Sunday**
Message-ID: <20131014211145.GA13025@legind-ThinkPad-X1-Carbon>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I don't want to assume ill intent of the teacher herself, and I don't want to assume she is trying to mislead us. I think that the avenues of funding are extremely limited for Oakland's public schools, and meanwhile the USAF and Northrop Grumman are all too eager to find desperate youth and offer them a 'future' that turns them into killing machines. But we may have an actual opportunity to talk to the teacher and offer her some alternatives for the students, and actually wrench such an event from the hands of the military industrial complex. Wouldn't it be beautiful if we had a fundraiser for youth from this school that want to work on cool hacking projects (Oakland Wiki?)
I think there are a multitude of ways to create an alternative event for these kids, in a way that doesn't say to the teacher "flip off we don't want your event here" but actually has a positive spin that cuts the USAF out of the loop. We've actually already been talking about creating a Sudo-Teens, and I think this would perfectly riff off of that project. As it happens, my partner actually works for OUSD and is in a unique position to bridge our goals and theirs, and will be getting in contact with the teacher herself to propose alternatives. What do you all think?
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 18:13:41 +0000, Hol Gaskill wrote:
>
> Northrop Grumman is historically, and still almost entirely an arms manufacturer. What if we had United Launch Alliance wanting to sponsor a rocketry program for kids? Where do we draw the perimeter around our organization? Google? PG&E? Taqueria Sinaloa? I think there are a few no-brainers both ways, and a vast expanse of grey area. Maybe we could have 2 levels of association for events - events that are endorsed by the group wholeheartedly and have no substantial conflicts of interest, and events where there is no question of value to the intended benefit recipients but some members have reservations about what it would imply if we were perceived to be associated as a group. Like, can't be added to the website or announced via sudo social media nodes, can't use our logo in their documentation of the event, etc. I think the comment about going over with the kids themselves about what sponsorship implies is spot on, maybe give us an opportunity to teach them about all the
patriots that have overthrown their own governments for the better, the patriots that resist foreign occupation aaand i'll stop there.
>
> Also, this particular event aside, the initial feedback seems to indicate that George is OK with some form of highschool-age kids participating at sudo room which could extend our educational value to the community. There is this program where HS students share time on cube sats - I'm trying to get a team formed at my high school in San Antonio, would be awesome if we could get some students from Oakland in on it. Pretty basic stuff, just writing software to flash up there and read sensors, then 'up'load the data back to earth. No warheads or anything.
>
> Oct 14, 2013 10:06:19 AM, di.franco@gmail.com wrote:
> I share the desire to be critical of and proceed carefully with associations with military-sponsored events.
> >
>
> I think it will be important for us to hear directly from the kids if possible since they have by far the most to gain or lose in this question: How do they view the sponsorship of the contest, what do they hope to get from participating in the contest, what do they hope to gain from being at sudo room (if we will have them)?
> >
>
>
> >
> >On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 1:34 AM, Marc Juul juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
> >
>
>
> >On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Vicky Knox vknoxsironi@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
>
>
> >Marc's response is justified, though I reject the language of the two opening questions.
>
>
>
>
> My conversation over the phone with Vivienne lead me to believe that she was participating in a competition organized by her school and I didn't carefully scan the email explanation that she sent me afterward to send to the list. I am really down about my oversight and apologize for it.
>
>
>
>
>
> I did learn the details of the competition's funding when she and a colleague came to see the space and pick up the key the night before their practice, and at that point I processed the explanation of the sponsorship much differently than Marc.
>
>
>
> ?
> >While she is not happy about the sponsor, Vivienne's justification of pursuing this event was that this was a great opportunity for her students to get a hold of resources and a learning environment they would otherwise not have had. She wanted to be able to do this event at a hackerspace because her ultimate goal was to use this competition as a bridge to connect to a critical, hacker community (for what this bridge is worth, given the obvious discrepancy). I felt at once uneasy and understanding. I respect the sentiment that she expressed that she needed to take the opportunity that was there, just as I am not quick to jump to judgment of many of my bright and fascinating friends back home who were in a position in which they (felt that they?) needed to join the military in order to realistically afford higher education. That said, I stand with Marc in my rejection of the military industrial complex (or whatever you would like to call it), but I do not know the answer to more nu
anced questions of access to aspirational education within a race-class divided society. I invite your conversation.
>
>
>
> This is not a question of access to aspirational education within a race-class divided society. The problem I'm having is that you (and possibly others?) decided to facilitate something called The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot Competition, with Northrop Grumman as sponsor, with some form of association to sudo room. Whatever your personal decision-making process was, you must have realized that at least some members would strongly disagree with that decision, yet you moved forward with short warning and without directly bringing the controversial topic in front of the group for discussion and decision. This should have been taken up at the weekly meeting. The fact that it was not obvious to you that this event was controversial enough to warrant serious group discussion before proceeding is problematic.
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
> If Marc or anyone else would like to bring up this topic at the general meeting, I could not make it this Wednesday but am available the following.
> I will be there.
> >
>
> ?
> >
>
> Vicky
>
> On Oct 13, 2013 7:31 PM, "Marc Juul" juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Vicky Knox vknoxsironi@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Do you all have any recommendations on how to expedite this? What is the current status of the large room and using it for? events?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >For background, this teacher origianally contacted info@sudoroom but never got a response, and called the SR number today, slightly frantic. I think it would be really awesome if we were able to help her out. This event seems quite an incredible opportunity for young people.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >What? What have you been smoking?
> >
> >The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot? Sponsored by Northrop Grumman?! Why are people assuming that this is something sudo room wants to support or in any way encourage?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >This sounds terrible. I am going to take this up at this Wednesdays
> sudo room meeting. I am completely against anything like this happening
> in or near sudo room in any way shape or form. I do not believe I am
> alone in feeling like this. I am both surprised and very disappointed
> that a critical and sceptical approach was not taken in dealing with
> something like this on behalf of sudo room.
> >
> >--
> >Marc
> >
>
>
> >
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >
> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> >
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >
>
> >
> >
>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >sudo-discuss mailing list
> >sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> >http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:42:35 -0700
From: Julio Rios <julio.rios@gmail.com>
To: William Budington <bill@inputoutput.io>
Cc: "sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org"
<sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [HELP] Oak Tech teacher requests space
6hrs/1x/month **starting Sunday**
Message-ID:
<CAOG09veYKtPYsvRAnsX503m+Wr-i70paY+A1wv1Dy2p3fbA2WA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1 on Bill's idea
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:11 PM, William Budington <bill@inputoutput.io>wrote:
> I don't want to assume ill intent of the teacher herself, and I don't want
> to assume she is trying to mislead us. I think that the avenues of funding
> are extremely limited for Oakland's public schools, and meanwhile the USAF
> and Northrop Grumman are all too eager to find desperate youth and offer
> them a 'future' that turns them into killing machines. But we may have an
> actual opportunity to talk to the teacher and offer her some alternatives
> for the students, and actually wrench such an event from the hands of the
> military industrial complex. Wouldn't it be beautiful if we had a
> fundraiser for youth from this school that want to work on cool hacking
> projects (Oakland Wiki?)
>
> I think there are a multitude of ways to create an alternative event for
> these kids, in a way that doesn't say to the teacher "flip off we don't
> want your event here" but actually has a positive spin that cuts the USAF
> out of the loop. We've actually already been talking about creating a
> Sudo-Teens, and I think this would perfectly riff off of that project. As
> it happens, my partner actually works for OUSD and is in a unique position
> to bridge our goals and theirs, and will be getting in contact with the
> teacher herself to propose alternatives. What do you all think?
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 18:13:41 +0000, Hol Gaskill wrote:
> >
> > Northrop Grumman is historically, and still almost entirely an arms
> manufacturer. What if we had United Launch Alliance wanting to sponsor a
> rocketry program for kids? Where do we draw the perimeter around our
> organization? Google? PG&E? Taqueria Sinaloa? I think there are a few
> no-brainers both ways, and a vast expanse of grey area. Maybe we could
> have 2 levels of association for events - events that are endorsed by the
> group wholeheartedly and have no substantial conflicts of interest, and
> events where there is no question of value to the intended benefit
> recipients but some members have reservations about what it would imply if
> we were perceived to be associated as a group. Like, can't be added to the
> website or announced via sudo social media nodes, can't use our logo in
> their documentation of the event, etc. I think the comment about going
> over with the kids themselves about what sponsorship implies is spot on,
> maybe give us an opportunity to teach them about all the patriots that have
> overthrown their own governments for the better, the patriots that resist
> foreign occupation aaand i'll stop there.
> >
> > Also, this particular event aside, the initial feedback seems to
> indicate that George is OK with some form of highschool-age kids
> participating at sudo room which could extend our educational value to the
> community. There is this program where HS students share time on cube sats
> - I'm trying to get a team formed at my high school in San Antonio, would
> be awesome if we could get some students from Oakland in on it. Pretty
> basic stuff, just writing software to flash up there and read sensors, then
> 'up'load the data back to earth. No warheads or anything.
> >
> > Oct 14, 2013 10:06:19 AM, di.franco@gmail.com wrote:
> > I share the desire to be critical of and proceed carefully with
> associations with military-sponsored events.
> > >
> >
> > I think it will be important for us to hear directly from the kids if
> possible since they have by far the most to gain or lose in this question:
> How do they view the sponsorship of the contest, what do they hope to get
> from participating in the contest, what do they hope to gain from being at
> sudo room (if we will have them)?
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 1:34 AM, Marc Juul juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> > >On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Vicky Knox vknoxsironi@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Marc's response is justified, though I reject the language of the two
> opening questions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > My conversation over the phone with Vivienne lead me to believe that she
> was participating in a competition organized by her school and I didn't
> carefully scan the email explanation that she sent me afterward to send to
> the list. I am really down about my oversight and apologize for it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I did learn the details of the competition's funding when she and a
> colleague came to see the space and pick up the key the night before their
> practice, and at that point I processed the explanation of the sponsorship
> much differently than Marc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >While she is not happy about the sponsor, Vivienne's justification of
> pursuing this event was that this was a great opportunity for her students
> to get a hold of resources and a learning environment they would otherwise
> not have had. She wanted to be able to do this event at a hackerspace
> because her ultimate goal was to use this competition as a bridge to
> connect to a critical, hacker community (for what this bridge is worth,
> given the obvious discrepancy). I felt at once uneasy and understanding. I
> respect the sentiment that she expressed that she needed to take the
> opportunity that was there, just as I am not quick to jump to judgment of
> many of my bright and fascinating friends back home who were in a position
> in which they (felt that they?) needed to join the military in order to
> realistically afford higher education. That said, I stand with Marc in my
> rejection of the military industrial complex (or whatever you would like to
> call it), but I do not know the answer to more nuanced questions of access
> to aspirational education within a race-class divided society. I invite
> your conversation.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is not a question of access to aspirational education within a
> race-class divided society. The problem I'm having is that you (and
> possibly others?) decided to facilitate something called The Air Force
> Association's CyberPatriot Competition, with Northrop Grumman as sponsor,
> with some form of association to sudo room. Whatever your personal
> decision-making process was, you must have realized that at least some
> members would strongly disagree with that decision, yet you moved forward
> with short warning and without directly bringing the controversial topic in
> front of the group for discussion and decision. This should have been taken
> up at the weekly meeting. The fact that it was not obvious to you that this
> event was controversial enough to warrant serious group discussion before
> proceeding is problematic.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > If Marc or anyone else would like to bring up this topic at the general
> meeting, I could not make it this Wednesday but am available the following.
> > I will be there.
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > Vicky
> >
> > On Oct 13, 2013 7:31 PM, "Marc Juul" juul@labitat.dk> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Vicky Knox vknoxsironi@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Do you all have any recommendations on how to expedite this? What is
> the current status of the large room and using it for events?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >For background, this teacher origianally contacted info@sudoroom but
> never got a response, and called the SR number today, slightly frantic. I
> think it would be really awesome if we were able to help her out. This
> event seems quite an incredible opportunity for young people.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >What? What have you been smoking?
> > >
> > >The Air Force Association's CyberPatriot? Sponsored by Northrop
> Grumman?! Why are people assuming that this is something sudo room wants to
> support or in any way encourage?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >This sounds terrible. I am going to take this up at this Wednesdays
> > sudo room meeting. I am completely against anything like this happening
> > in or near sudo room in any way shape or form. I do not believe I am
> > alone in feeling like this. I am both surprised and very disappointed
> > that a critical and sceptical approach was not taken in dealing with
> > something like this on behalf of sudo room.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Marc
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:21:52 -0700
From: Max Klein <isalix@gmail.com>
To: sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] George says "Rent is late. If not paid by Oct
15 3pm, then 5% late fee".
Message-ID:
<CAKbmofgUAyRz8mado6xAgn64g8Pn1Uhwz4aTkZoePNOyFrpR1g@mail.gmail.com>
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George has just said that to me in sudo Oct 14, 3:20pm.
What is current status? If not enough, I will issue sudo an interest free
loan to avoid late fee.
Max
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:01:57 -0700
From: Jenny Ryan <tunabananas@gmail.com>
To: Max Klein <isalix@gmail.com>
Cc: sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] George says "Rent is late. If not paid by
Oct 15 3pm, then 5% late fee".
Message-ID:
<CAF0yFe7YFPJiLsJ_t0bOmcLzoC2c1ViuqxhS7h6vywdZb4sfCg@mail.gmail.com>
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Matt is on it, and I've relayed this to George. We have enough :)
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End of sudo-discuss Digest, Vol 12, Issue 21
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