On Jul 7, 2014 7:31 PM, "Jenny Ryan" <tunabananas@gmail.com> wrote:

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Hi David!

Sorry, I didn't have time to read the entirety of this email, but I
just want to point out that discussion between sudo and backspace would
only be possible if there was some clear means of communicating with
the backspace community (a mailing list, a website chat portal, an irc
channel, an email address that is redirected to the whole community,
etc;). I am aware of the Facebook group, but believe this to be at once
both overly public (for logistical communications) and antithetical to
the ideals I'm aware that both sudo and backspace hold wrt information
privacy and communication channels.

With love, let's work it out!,
jenny

On Mon 07 Jul 2014 07:18:37 PM PDT, David Keenan wrote:
> Hey Matt and everyone,
>
> I'm not sure where all the negative energy is coming from. I'm not trying
> to kill a proposal, or kill anything. All I'm saying is, if you want to put
> something in backspace's space, talking to backspace is probably a good
> step before deciding on a whole plan and then bringing it to the entire
> collective. IE, include backspace, too - how would that *not* be part and
> parcel of crafting such a proposal? I'm sorry if this sentiment of mine
> feels hurtful to anyone or that they are being silenced - I guess I am
> failing totally, but what I want to encourage is more dialogue, not less -
> and really *more* openness (between groups) and more open lines of
> communication - that is all I was advocating for, please everyone, I hope
> they can try to take my suggestions and input in this vein?
>
> Daniel and Matt especially, I worry my gratefulness for all you both do and
> especially leading this effort on the network infrastructure is not coming
> through -- but I personally *am* grateful, that is not just rhetoric, and I
> thank you profoundly and seriously for your thoughtful input and
> consideration in auditing the building for locations. I am really glad you
> are on this, and I am not trying to deflate or kill your or anyone's
> efforts and energy toward this. Consensus mixed with do-o-cracy is what
> Sudo, Backspace, BAPS and in fact every member entity is about - It can be
> a tricky line to walk, but we can and will, because.. we are awesome? Cuz
> we hafta? Cause thats how we are gonna remake the world? Something alone
> those lines.
>
> The thing I have been trying to tell myself every day is to try to be
> kinder than ever before to people - I can see that I am failing, but I want
> very much to improve on that. I mean being as kind as possible even if I
> feel a responsibility to bring up doubts or concerns that can impede action
> towards a goal - action that may have unforeseen negative consequences that
> I think *no one* wants. I know sometimes I am overemphatic and for that I
> apologize - I really do - I am trying to change that. I do love everyone in
> this project and am incredibly, incredibly grateful for all people do.
>
> So Matt, I do feel compelled sometimes to speak up on behalf of those who
> are not present but are perhaps directly affected by what is being
> discussed - those who are not necessarily part of another's group, or not
> included on this or that internal email thread, or not in on another
> group's internal meetings - precisely because I, as a member of Omni, not
> just BAPS or Sudo or Backspace, want and strive to be considerate of
> *everyone*'s needs, and try to get each group to think about how decisions
> impact other groups or people in the building in ways that had simply not
> been a consideration before moving in together in this big ol crazy place.
>
> I am not ever trying to dictate anything to anyone in those situations - I
> really am only trying to effect the sentiments above and I really hope that
> in terms of the benefit of the doubt Matt is talking about, that I am
> afforded this, because that is where I am coming from.
>
> Now then - Daniel, re: garbage -- I agree, and it has by now long been the
> case that garbage will not live permanently in that room. I have several
> ideas for where the garbage will go that I believe are viable - but I feel
> like, that is almost another thread and I want to stick to the topic at
> hand here, which is where to put a two or four post rack.
>
> Daniel, I also agree the servers should be in a central place if possible.
> For accessibility, but also as you point out, for centrality of cable runs
> -- I am thinking provisionally one Cat5e/6a to each room/main area, with
> VLANs as necessary, and then breakout switches as needed for each area. If
> Sudo needs more copper to the sudo/ccl room for bandwidth, and we do not
> have 10Gb switches lying around :) -- we can run two or four 1Gb cables to
> channel bond them. To this end I think we should figure out Sudo's the
> bandwidth requirements for the equipment Sudo is planning to store in that
> rack.
>
> Now then to explain a bit more my idea (just an idea - not a dictum, and
> not necessarily the best place - just an idea, I am not set on it) of
> putting the servers in the basement, in the small room near the furnaces:
>
> First, TE closets are often in basements because it is easier to get to
> other parts of the building there, than in rooms above. To a large extent,
> from what I can see this also holds for Omni.
>
> So:
> 1. Cable runs to Sudo room is not hard - there are even windows to sudo
> room in the basement.
>
> 2. Cable runs to the ballroom and that whole area - the basement is under
> it, also easy.
>
> 3. Cable runs to the bookstore-cafe -- several options here, but the
> basement is very close to this area. A cable could be run up through the
> basement ceiling in the ne corner - I know there is a sink here, but there
> is also a thought of installing a dumb waiter here too. Otherwise, plenum
> cabling inside / alongside any cold-air return ductwork that passes by/to
> the cafe-bookstore area; or blx for heating ducts.
>
> 4. Server room location in basement - one idea: The room between the
> kitchen and main stairs to the basement:
> 4a. We'd wall up the opening to the kitchen first.
> 4b. Then run plenum-grade cable inside the cold-air return, blx cabling
> inside the heated ducts, i.e. using ducting when possible to get to
> everywhere in the building the ducting goes, such as the disco room
> (OMNIdance's room). If we can't or don't want to use the ducting we can
> also possibly, maybe fish it along plumbing or drainage - the water heater
> is in the basement.
>
> This would also allow tapping into existing venting for possibly heat
> distribution, and also be not far from a compressor for the walk in should
> A/C be needed. Also, the sound of the rack will not be nearly as much of an
> issue there.
>
> Just an idea - my thinking out loud only on this project.
>
> Please, lets hack it together?
>
> With love and solidarity,
> David
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
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>> All -
>>
>> I would like to return to Daniel's initial email about this topic - the
>> topic being "where would be optimal to host the server closet that will
>> provide internet connectivity to the entirety of Omni and beyond (being
>> a node in People's Open Network)?"):
>>
>> The proposal was to host the server rack in the utility closet (where
>> the garbage cans currently are, and part of Backspace at this point):
>>
>> "Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we will have
>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the group
>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our
>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>
>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:
>>
>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I believe.
>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.
>>
>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we should consider
>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High temperature and
>> noise levels are the main issues."
>>
>> Please chill and actually take into account the above proposal (which
>> is entirely sensitive to this being a community decision about a
>> utility that will come to serve the entire building and all collectives
>> in it).
>>
>> Thanks for reading,
>> Jenny
>>
>>
>> On Mon 07 Jul 2014 06:35:13 PM PDT, Matthew Senate wrote:
>>> Please don't misconstrue my language.
>>>
>>> If folks are participating in good faith, and they are not met with
>> sincere
>>> appreciation (not just rhetoric), they will no longer be interested in
>>> participating. People who are willing to help will walk away if they do
>> not
>>> feel like it is worth their time.
>>>
>>> I do not have interest in working on the physical network for the
>> building
>>> at this point. It seems like some other(s) may be able to manage it fine
>> on
>>> their own.
>>>
>>> Anyone else interested?
>>>
>>> // Matt
>>>
>>> p.s. Nothing has been definitive in this topic. What I was hoping to
>>> achieve with Daniel was a clear, succinct proposal to bring back to
>>> everyone. The presumption from David has been that "we" (sudo?) just want
>>> to railroad over everyone, despite protests from me (and others) about
>> this
>>> false assumption. I find this situation to be based on an assumption of
>> bad
>>> faith (despite the "good faith" rhetoric) since "we" (sudo?) are
>>> "colonizing" the building (or something?)--not "improving" it or
>>> "participating" in it. Willingness to hear a proposal does not imply
>>> commitment. Obsession with deflecting the possibility of a proposal is
>>> *silencing* and is a practice that drains communities of their energy.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:21 PM, niki <niki.shelley@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whoah, y'all!
>>>>
>>>> I think the main issue here is that the people involved w/Backspace
>> aren't
>>>> being included in this conversation.
>>>>
>>>> It may very well be that that space cannot be converted into a
>>>> consultation room for Backspace, but those who may be affected by that
>>>> should at least be given a chance to participate in a dialogue about
>>>> whatever it is that ends up happening and what that will mean for their
>>>> ability to practice in the building.
>>>>
>>>> Saying things like "Can't wait to see the plans..." / "Good luck!" feels
>>>> like a real personal attack and really unnecessary / unsupportive -
>>>> especially when it's being directed towards one person because they are
>> the
>>>> member of Backspace who happens to be on this particular mailing list.
>>>> Especially when that one person agreed to come on board to help
>> Backspace
>>>> as an act of mutual aid.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel like questions that have been put forth in good faith such
>> as,
>>>> "Why can't the server racks be stored in Sudo?" have not been answered.
>> If
>>>> there's a good reason, that's awesome. All I'm hearing, however, is a
>> lack
>>>> of willingness to have a conversation about potentially repurposing a
>> space
>>>> that another group had planned on using and all of the reasons why this
>> is
>>>> the only / best space for the server racks.
>>>>
>>>> I think that's all anyone's asking for! An opportunity to participate in
>>>> the dialogue and an explanation as to why this space must be used for
>> this
>>>> purpose over any other space.
>>>>
>>>> Love,
>>>>
>>>> Niki
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Matthew Senate <mattsenate@gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:03 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: "sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David,
>>>>
>>>> Great, looking forward to you setting up the network somewhere as well
>> as
>>>> building out that store room in some way or other.
>>>>
>>>> Can't wait to see the plans, approval, and funding for the store room.
>>>> Maybe in the next 4-6 months?
>>>>
>>>> You may want to note what Daniel said about 4ft of clearance (or
>> similar)
>>>> around those electrical panels. I think this may be the page of
>>>> regulations:
>>>>
>> https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9880
>>>>
>>>> Wow, that's going to be a lot of work.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck!
>>>>
>>>> // Matt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 5:48 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeez..
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt, do you require all of the Backspace Wellness Collective to join
>>>>> sudo-discuss email list to have this discussion collectively (and
>>>>> therefore, productively), or inter-collectively as the case may be? We
>> are
>>>>> not all on Sudo's email list. Yes, I am on sudo's list, therefore I am
>>>>> responding on behalf of many members of Backspace, because I, unlike
>> You,
>>>>> am in communication with all members of that collective whom are,
>> unlike
>>>>> You (or Sudo since You speak for all of us Sudoers?), most
>>>>> likely negatively affected by this proposition. But this discussion
>> really
>>>>> should take place at the Omni meeting and/or on the omnilogistics
>> list, or
>>>>> at the very least, on backspace's list or at their meeting, since You
>> are
>>>>> talking about building something in Backspace, not the other way
>> around...
>>>>> if that makes sense?
>>>>>
>>>>> This area you are speaking of is not Backspace 'with plans' to use that
>>>>> room - any more than Sudo has 'plans' to use its room: Sudo is already
>> in
>>>>> that room, and Backspace is are already in their area too (a small
>> cluster
>>>>> of rooms). The area is clearly marked on the floorplan as Backspace and
>>>>> this use has been discussed numerous times in meetings for a long
>> time, as
>>>>> has its rehabilitation, because its in poor shape.
>>>>>
>>>>> Backspace is a small group with an enormous burden of tasks with
>> respect
>>>>> to rehabing that space and getting operations up and running. Sudo is a
>>>>> comparatively large group with comparatively far less to do in
>>>>> Sudo's own space to be functional. Backspace has a LOT to do with far
>> less
>>>>> resources, and I would ask that folks be kind to Backspace when
>> demanding
>>>>> things like build dates. Build dates are only a part of the timeline.
>>>>>
>>>>> What it (worryingly to me) feels like is that You are insinuating is
>> that
>>>>> this is not Backspace, it is rather Your space to do whatever You
>> think is
>>>>> best with it. The corollary to this is that Backspace's existence is
>>>>> itself also merely a 'plan' - I assure you, it is not only that. That
>> you
>>>>> do not go to Backspace meetings, doesnt mean that it, or the people in
>> it,
>>>>> do not exist. Yes, it is new, like the cafe, but it is also been a
>> part of
>>>>> the omni project for a while with all of the real life effort that
>> entails.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please lets all be kind to one another? We have only been in the
>> building
>>>>> one week. There is a lot of shared space in the Omni, and I think its
>> fair
>>>>> to say that a really compelling case has to be made if you need to
>> build
>>>>> something in someone else's space, rather than Sudo's own space or
>>>>> in shared space.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition, I would guess it would not be not clear to backspace that
>> a
>>>>> rack of servers anywhere in the building actually will necessarily
>> benefit
>>>>> them or anyone else that is not Sudo. Pretty much the only thing I can
>>>>> think if controlling door access and building-related infrastructure
>> like a
>>>>> couple of switches, maybe an AP controller. Does that take a whole
>> rack?
>>>>> Everything is Sudo.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would suggest is that several possibilities for a rack outside
>> of
>>>>> Sudo are explored and planned, and that the options are presented at
>> the
>>>>> Omnilogistics meeting so they can be discussed by everyone, not just
>>>>> Sudoers. Does that seem fair?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So what you are saying is that You (on behalf of Backspace) have plans
>>>>>> to add improvements to that room (at some point soon, requiring
>> approval
>>>>>> from the landlord and financed presumably by Backspace). Further,
>> that You
>>>>>> (on behalf of backspace with plans for using that room) do not want
>> any
>>>>>> network devices or other omni-wide usage in that space since you'll
>> both be
>>>>>> building in it and using it in some way for Backspace after you are
>> done
>>>>>> building in it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that correct?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If so, what are the anticipated the build dates? And what stage are
>> you
>>>>>> at in terms of approvals? And what stage are you at in terms of
>> financing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:29 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with you Matt 1000% on assuming good faith.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am super pleased that people take it upon themselves to tend to all
>>>>>>> that needs doing - it was in the first line of my first two initial
>> emails
>>>>>>> on this project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Putting servers into backspace right now may seems like the easiest /
>>>>>>> OSPF as a temporary, provisional measure for a couple of days.. I
>>>>>>> wonder, will it be just as easy to remove them in a few days when we
>>>>>>> begin laying up drywall in there and start refinishing that room,
>> filling
>>>>>>> it with debris?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After the room is finished, if the servers are too loud for sudo/ccl
>> 's
>>>>>>> 3.2k sq ft room - how loud do you think it will sound in a room a
>>>>>>> fraction the size with practitioners in it trying to treat folks with
>>>>>>> ailments, or get a relaxing  tuia-na massage, or meditate, or
>> quietly work
>>>>>>> / read etc? A absolutely central idea of backspace is being a quiet
>> space,
>>>>>>> while 41U of servers sounds not unlike a jet engine in my experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Y'all, I really do have sudo's best interests at heart, and I would
>>>>>>> urge everyone reading this that expressing concerns like these is
>> not any
>>>>>>> attempt to stomp on our collective creative do-o-cratic urges, but
>> simply
>>>>>>> an good-hearted attempt, however adumbrated or limited it may be, to
>> be
>>>>>>> practical and thoughtful by incorporating germane variables into a
>> viable
>>>>>>> server room plan that might lie outside your current matrix.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't micro-manage creativity.
>>>>>>>> Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems
>>>>>>>> right now; this will not always be true.
>>>>>>>> Assume good faith.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions
>> are:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very
>> soon.
>>>>>>>> What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for
>>>>>>>> network devices, without intractable costs.
>>>>>>>> What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are
>>>>>>>> convenient and already appropriate for setting up network devices
>> (fast,
>>>>>>>> easy) and (b) places that allow for integrating network devices
>> into the
>>>>>>>> heating/cooling systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require
>>>>>>>> coordination, approval, and implementation with potential extra
>> costs).
>>>>>>>> What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon
>> as
>>>>>>>> possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> // Matt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into
>> the
>>>>>>>>> basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the
>>>>>>>>>> blower from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap.
>> On the west
>>>>>>>>>> side, there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans,
>> plus
>>>>>>>>>> windows above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above
>> the
>>>>>>>>>> barr-room bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So,
>> re: cool
>>>>>>>>>> air (without a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we
>> could pull
>>>>>>>>>> cool air from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack,
>> and vent
>>>>>>>>>> heat from the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the
>> furnaces
>>>>>>>>>> use, or vent heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or
>> vent perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> to that lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to
>> trigger A/C from
>>>>>>>>>> the compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the
>> rest of the
>>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to
>>>>>>>>>> exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it
>> come/go -
>>>>>>>>>> needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and
>> OOC. It's
>>>>>>>>>> a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at
>> help
>>>>>>>>>> sorting out, and I would really love it if we could.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the
>> basement
>>>>>>>>>> and space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another
>> equally
>>>>>>>>>> pressing aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may
>> be a good
>>>>>>>>>> idea to set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google,
>> but I am
>>>>>>>>>> open to suggestions about how best to comprise this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Love
>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack
>>>>>>>>>>> servers and very grateful to all who are putting energy and
>> effort into
>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use
>>>>>>>>>>> others' space and shared space, I feel the only real missing
>> piece in the
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty
>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any
>>>>>>>>>>> other group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building -
>> especially
>>>>>>>>>>> for their very own space which they have already been promised
>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> technically in possession of.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible
>>>>>>>>>>> place things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack
>> should
>>>>>>>>>>> *not* go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in
>>>>>>>>>>> the building, I think that's a conversation that should include
>> others in
>>>>>>>>>>> the building too, not just sudoers, because it affects others'
>> planning and
>>>>>>>>>>> use of space.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any
>>>>>>>>>>> build-out, and all buildout really should be discussed within
>> the OOC as a
>>>>>>>>>>> whole. This doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings -
>> its simply
>>>>>>>>>>> a way to try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in
>> concert with
>>>>>>>>>>> other groups in the space.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack
>> into
>>>>>>>>>>> what is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace),
>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> particular conversation should be had with that *group* from the
>>>>>>>>>>> get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the
>> building
>>>>>>>>>>> with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take
>> place
>>>>>>>>>>> *only* on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other
>>>>>>>>>>> sudoers (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently
>> needs a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>> work - apparently, many people can only envision as a place for
>> garbage, or
>>>>>>>>>>> to get to utility panels.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does
>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage
>> here
>>>>>>>>>>> compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be
>>>>>>>>>>> understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and
>>>>>>>>>>> *time* to do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the
>> building.
>>>>>>>>>>> I mean, Backspace has far more intense permitting and structural
>> issues to
>>>>>>>>>>> address - we're getting architectural drawings (I had the
>> architect over
>>>>>>>>>>> yesterday partly for this reason), and planning it out
>> thoughtfully - this
>>>>>>>>>>> is not going to happen in one week or even one month. Also,
>> Backspacers are
>>>>>>>>>>> a much smaller, newer group than Sudo, in which almost everyone
>> has day
>>>>>>>>>>> jobs and simply can't be there alla the time - they are not on
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at least any more
>> than all of
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo should be on backspace's list.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a
>>>>>>>>>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers /
>> bodyworkers,
>>>>>>>>>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena,
>> and Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be
>> discussed
>>>>>>>>>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as
>> applying to any
>>>>>>>>>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal
>>>>>>>>>>> discussions about how articulate their model, including how best
>> to build
>>>>>>>>>>> out, refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that
>> if you
>>>>>>>>>>> blow away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a
>> different use,
>>>>>>>>>>> you are also potentially actually talking about removing an
>> individual from
>>>>>>>>>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I
>> think it
>>>>>>>>>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into
>> backspace in
>>>>>>>>>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers
>> there that
>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what
>> I mean
>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also
>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> had with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the
>> omnilogistics list),
>>>>>>>>>>> especially if you see the servers as serving the entire
>> building, not just
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too -
>> easily enough
>>>>>>>>>>> done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am
>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a
>>>>>>>>>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I
>> imagine sudo
>>>>>>>>>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on
>> things,
>>>>>>>>>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they
>> should be in
>>>>>>>>>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for
>> permitting
>>>>>>>>>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The
>> electrical
>>>>>>>>>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really
>> never entered
>>>>>>>>>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of
>> power and
>>>>>>>>>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful
>> planning re:
>>>>>>>>>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits
>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address
>> that, and then
>>>>>>>>>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for
>> safety's sake
>>>>>>>>>>> if nothing else. My 2c.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <
>>>>>>>>>>> luis.murillo.plos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some
>> errands/TCB
>>>>>>>>>>>> will swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <somebody@riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh
>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject:        Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date:   Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From:   hol@gaskill.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To:     David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CC:     sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >the compressor for that could also provide cooling for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> servers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things may
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool
>> air
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> letting convection do the work.  if there's no objection, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could set
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run
>>>>>>>>>>>>> coax to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more optimal area.  i finally have some time this week so i'll
>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey guys,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server space! I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanna help.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The main issue with using this particular room is, as you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness collective is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already paying rent on that particular area (NW groundfloor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corner) and will be making their own changes to that space.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Backspace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attraction for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of fans plus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Backspace,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In general I would think, before using other essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-shared
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually rule out why building the room in other locations,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like Sudo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that particular
>>>>>>>>>>>>> location
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in someone else's area is really the only place it could work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for going on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would not be my first location in the entire building for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> street.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We could find a room in the basement. There is excellent
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ventilation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the
>> furnaces
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> venting to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually help heat the building, which could save on energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement - the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> compressor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green solution
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the building.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody <somebody@riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2014/07/05:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building, and so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> far the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only place that seems the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most appropriate to have the server room is the room by the
>> bar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This area is the most ideal in the whole building because the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> air
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flow,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> where the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet access enters the building.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we
>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High
>>>>>>>>>>>>> temperature and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise levels are the main issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of this
>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself (Daniel).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mesh@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> mesh@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>> - --
>> Jenny
>> http://jennyryan.net
>> http://sudomesh.org
>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
>>
>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
>> - -Laurie Anderson
>>
>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining
>> it."
>>  -Hannah Arendt
>>
>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
>> - -Stéphane Mallarmé
>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
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>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>



- --
Jenny
http://jennyryan.net
http://sudomesh.org
http://thevirtualcampfire.org
http://technomadic.tumblr.com

`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
"Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
- -Laurie Anderson

"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining
it."
 -Hannah Arendt

"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
- -Stéphane Mallarmé
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
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