I'm not a fucking woman, thank you, and when I'm sexually assaulted it should also be easy to ban someone.

On Feb 7, 2015 11:07 PM, "Al Sweigart" <asweigart@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make sense to follow the rules.

Isn't that just the same thing as selectively enforcing the rules? If the rules "don't make sense", it should be easy enough to get everyone to vote to modify/delete/append the rules. Otherwise, this is just asking for popular people in the group getting to decide when the rules don't apply to them.

It's easy enough to boot abusive people from Omni Commons when they're drunk and getting into women's personal space and being a creep. But where the policies of a space are tested is if they hold up against powerful people. That goes for groups of people big and small.

So, I kind of figured that mine would be an easy question to answer (Is it 66% to ban or 100% to unban?) but if no one actually knows the answer, then it points to something that should probably be discussed.

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Torrie Fischer <tdfischer@hackerbots.net> wrote:

Rah rah policy and whatnot.

Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make sense to follow the rules.

This thread (along with other previous threads) has seen a lot of energy put
into dissecting the intricate hoops of policy and procedure that have been
built to figure out loopholes and whatnot. They're quite ornate, really.
Wonderful things, if thats your kink.

Instead of investing more energy into this flavor of turing tarpit by throwing
around voting percentages, decision approval workflows, ambiguous wording, and
whatnot, maybe its best to start by revisiting the original problem:

How does Sudo Room, as a member of the Omni collective-of-collectives, keep
the people they want at Sudo Room and reliably push away people who don't
belong?

(For the record, I try to avoid the wednesday meetings because during my last
few visits I almost fell asleep when it turned into omni delegate meeting
discussion about how to lawyer it out in "consensus")

On Friday, February 06, 2015 10:31:14 AM Al Sweigart wrote:
> Okay. So if I'm reading this right, the CRP has a mediation process where
> terminating a membership requires 2/3 vote. However, for safe space issues
> someone can be temporarily banned immediately by an individual member,
> which can then only be overturned by a 100% consensus (under the "All other
> conflicts" category in the CRP)? Or when it says "a temporary ban may be
> put in place until the Omni's conflict resolution process can be followed
> to resolution" does that mean they are banned until a 2/3 vote to
> permanently ban them is made (as it says in the CRP)?
>
> Basically, I want to know if, after the temp ban, it takes a 100% vote to
> unban the abusive person or a 66% vote to ban the abusive person. The CRP
> and Safer Space Policy aren't clear cut on that (unless I'm missing
> something in the wording).
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:12 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 5, 2015, Al Sweigart <asweigart@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I was hoping someone could clear a few things up:
> >>
> >> 1) Is Perry, right now, banned from the Omni Commons space?
> >
> > Yes, any member (but not guest) is empowered to temporarily ban - pending
> > conflict mediation - anyone else so following a safe space violation which
> > is what this is. I will bring it up also at the delegates meeting. See our
> > Safe Space and Conflict Resolution policies on our wiki (on phone, don't
> > have the links to hand but they are in the sidebar)
> >
> >> 2) If not, is any member unilaterally empowered to ban him right now?
> >
> > See above
> >
> >> 3) And if that happened, would he only be unbanned is through 100%
> >> consensus of the entire group?
> >
> > He would be unbanned following the process set forth in Conflict
> > Resolution.
> >
> >> 4) And would this consensus be reached at a CDC meeting or another
> >> meeting?
> >
> > See conflict resolution process. Thanks!
> >
> >> -Al
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Steve Bloom <stevebloom55@gmail.com>
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >>> He's a guitar teacher of some sort, IIRC with a poster in the entry, so
> >>> perhaps has some connection to musical activities at Omni.  I've
> >>> experienced him too, both times somewhat drunk and having lost his sense
> >>> of
> >>> boundaries in part.  I didn't feel threatened, but I can see how most
> >>> would.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Ryan <yandoryn@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I like the phrase space-invaded because it just made me think of Space
> >>>> Invaders which made me think of making a Safe Space top-down shooter
> >>>> video
> >>>> game, which made me smile.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas@gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Oh, *that* dude. So sorry you were space-invaded, Ryan :(
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I remember being in the mezzanine when Perry was in the ballroom,
> >>>>> reading Sarah's report about the incident with him peeking into the
> >>>>> Disco
> >>>>> Room, then overheard him say to someone on the phone about being asked
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> stop, "Dude, I was just looking at this beautiful naked dancer, I mean
> >>>>> wow"
> >>>>> and turning to Matt or Marc, can't recall, and fuming that I'd love to
> >>>>> go
> >>>>> kick that creep out of the space.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wish I had then. Fully in support of his ban but don't personally have
> >>>>> the bandwidth to steward a mediation process. I think he might know
> >>>>> Gabby
> >>>>> from Rise Above, or seemed to be helping / around that area some.
> >>>>> CC'ing
> >>>>> her to see if she has his contact info.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /jnny
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 02/03/2015 02:49 PM, David Keenan wrote:
> >>>>> > Hi all,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Yes, I agree, this person should persona non grata pending
> >>>>> > mediation.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Perry is an olderish white guy musician who comes around sometimes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> much of
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > the time seriously drunk it would appear. Being drunk seems to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> clearly
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > impair his judgement and his actions become invasive to others in
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the ways
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > Ryan describes.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > My history with him is only the following. I first talked to him a
> >>>>>
> >>>>> while
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > ago asking him to turn down his electric guitar in the ballroom
> >>>>>
> >>>>> while a
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > large meeting was taking place in La Commune - he complied. I
> >>>>>
> >>>>> noticed he
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > really did reek of alcohol. I asked if he volunteered with any
> >>>>>
> >>>>> collective,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > he said FNB - but he didn't know where the kitchen was, or that
> >>>>>
> >>>>> there was
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > even a basement, which rang alarm bells for me (ie, it was probably
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a fib.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > I later followed up with Helen and Joe and they said they had never
> >>>>>
> >>>>> heard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > of him, and that sometimes people 'say' theyre in FNB but aren't
> >>>>>
> >>>>> really..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > Anyhow, Perry left the ballroom and wandered upstairs by the kitchen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> above
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > La Commune, now playing the mandolin - 'quietly', yes - but alas
> >>>>>
> >>>>> still
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > distracting to those in the large meeting below, and I again asked
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if he
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > could play music in the basement or another room in the building
> >>>>>
> >>>>> until the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > meeting as finished - he complied, but seemed pretty out of it and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> not
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > understanding why (drunk).
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > I later found out that while upstairs he was 'peeking' into the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Disco Room
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > on a dance rehearsal that made those inside feel uncomfortable and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > sent an email out to that effect. Next time I saw him, I
> >>>>>
> >>>>> re-introduced
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > myself, took him up to the dance room and let him know that they
> >>>>>
> >>>>> require
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > privacy and to not do that. He said he had something of one the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> dancers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > inside and was trying to return it to her.. I did not verify whether
> >>>>>
> >>>>> this
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > was true or not, but since the dancers did not seem to know him, it
> >>>>>
> >>>>> seems
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > doubtful.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Then, one day after that, he was walking into the building and I
> >>>>>
> >>>>> admittedly
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > gave him a bit of a 'side-eye' on the way in because I wasn't sure
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if he
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > was wasted or what. He himself came up to me and said, "why'd you
> >>>>>
> >>>>> give me
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > that look?", and I said, it appears you come into the building
> >>>>>
> >>>>> drunk, and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > we can't have drunk people in here - you aren't known to our
> >>>>>
> >>>>> community, and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > I don't know what you will do in that state. I said if you want to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> get
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > drunk, try not to come here. To his credit he admitted being drunk
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > aforementioned day, agreed it was unacceptable, and said that wasn't
> >>>>>
> >>>>> going
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > to happen again.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > But, since it has happened again, to my mind that is grounds to ban
> >>>>>
> >>>>> him
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > pending mediation that he will have to arrange.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Does anyone know him, or have his email?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Best,
> >>>>> > David
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ryan <yandoryn@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > > fwding this to sudo and cdc as well
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>>>> > > From: Ryan <yandoryn@gmail.com>
> >>>>> > > Date: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:59 PM
> >>>>> > > Subject: Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry
> >>>>> > > To: "discuss@lists.omnicommons.org" <discuss@lists.omnicommons.org
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > > David Keenan <dkeenan44@gmail.com>
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Perry, who as far as I know is not affiliated with any collective
> >>>>>
> >>>>> in the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > space, was at the Omni until late last night. He was heavily
> >>>>>
> >>>>> inebriated and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > reeked of alcohol.
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > In attempting to talk with me, he got incredibly touchy-feely and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> further
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > invaded my space, getting so close that I could feel his breath on
> >>>>>
> >>>>> my skin.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > I informed him loudly that touch needs to be consensual in the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> space and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > that he should ask me before touching me. I told him that the safe
> >>>>>
> >>>>> space
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > policy is next to the front door and that he should read it. I
> >>>>>
> >>>>> managed to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > get away from him, but he followed me outside.
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Ribre (sp?) was outside with her guitar and he sat down next to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> her,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > invaded her space, and tried to strike up a seemingly very
> >>>>>
> >>>>> uncomfortable
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > conversation. She told him that whatever he was talking about was
> >>>>>
> >>>>> something
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > that he'd have to deal with on his own, not with her, and that she
> >>>>>
> >>>>> cannot
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > deal with drunk men, and that they make her unsafe. Instead of
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ceasing the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > conversation, he got closer and tried to tell her that they needed
> >>>>>
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > continue it.
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > He continued in this vein for a while longer, until I loudly
> >>>>>
> >>>>> informed him
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > that the conversation was not consensual and he needed to stop. He
> >>>>>
> >>>>> started
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > to argue with me, however RAYC was able to defuse Perry and lead
> >>>>>
> >>>>> him away
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > from the interaction.
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > I spoke to Kwe and Juul before they left, to make sure I had
> >>>>>
> >>>>> backup if I
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > needed to ask Perry to leave the building. Eventually, I was the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> only
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > member left in the building, so I asked RAYC to shut down the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> building for
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > me, and that I was only comfortable vouching for him and Nicholas.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> RAYC got
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > Perry to leave.
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > I spoke with David Keenan this morning, explaining the situation,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and DK
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > said that he has spoken to Perry in the past about his behaviour,
> >>>>> > > specifically his behaviour when under the influence of alcohol. I
> >>>>>
> >>>>> will let
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > DK speak more to that.
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Is anyone aware of a collective that Perry is involved with? In my
> >>>>> > > conversation with DK, he said that when he spoke to Perry he said
> >>>>>
> >>>>> he was
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > with FNB, but was probably lying, as he didn't even know where the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> kitchen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > was. Regardless, I ask that Perry be banned from the Omni, pending
> >>>>> > > mediation, as his actions clearly violate our safe space policy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and he
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > > refused to take action to alter his behaviour.
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > _______________________________________________
> >>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> > > sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> > sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jenny
> >>>>> http://jennyryan.net
> >>>>> http://sudomesh.org
> >>>>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
> >>>>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
> >>>>> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
> >>>>> -Laurie Anderson
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining
> >>>>> it."
> >>>>> -Hannah Arendt
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
> >>>>> -Stéphane Mallarmé
> >>>>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> discuss mailing list
> >>>> discuss@lists.omnicommons.org
> >>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> cdc mailing list
> >>> cdc@lists.omnicommons.org
> >>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/cdc

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