I think Rachel is\ blowing my proposals out of proportion by saying 

"What would you do with them? 

Put them all in one country? 

Kind of like a concentration of them?

 Like a camp? Kill them all off? All bad ideas." 

 I am not saying he is banned I am discussing proposals for a ban and a constructive resolution. I as a non-member can still call on the safer space policy to have someone temp banned from the space to establish safety. No one has asked that I go to a mediation meeting I just said that I didn't want to talk to any of these people directly.

 " If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, 

and I would LOVE to hear your alternative

to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like the state does,

 if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution

 besides exile, punishment and "training" people, 

whenever possible. 

NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. 

IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one mediation, 

and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being banned, and see the issues clear

 my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,

 I often think WildCat is right,

 but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT

You Still Have To Go To Mediation 

In Some Case In Your Life, 

If You Recognize The Process At All

If You're Willing To Work On It, "

 Rachel I followed process by emailing y'all and I followed the steps of the Safer Spaces policy: 

"These are some examples of unacceptable behavior. This list is by no means exhaustive. Harassment includes but is not limited to:

• Deliberate intimidation - Babs and I 
• Deliberate misgendering or use of ‘dead’ or rejected names - Calling me a dude and man with aggressive and accentuaded tone implying it was intentional misgendering
• Threats of violence - Telling me that we should walk a couple of blocks to settle it like adults implying he wanted to fight.
• Gratuitous or off-topic sexual images or behaviour in spaces where they’re not appropriate - Telling me he liked phone sex the yelling at me about how I needed to get off of my phone in sudo room. rather than asking me calmly,

4.‎ ‏Consequences‭ ‬of‭ ‬Unacceptable‭ ‬Behavior

Unacceptable‭ ‬behavior‭ ‬from‭ ‬any‭one at the Omni,‭ ‬including‭ ‬sponsors‭ ‬and‭ ‬those‭ ‬with‭ ‬decision-making‭ ‬authority,‭ ‬will‭ ‬not‭ ‬be‭ ‬tolerated.

Anyone‭ ‬asked‭ ‬to‭ ‬stop‭ ‬unacceptable‭ ‬behavior‭ ‬is‭ ‬expected‭ ‬to‭ ‬comply‭ ‬immediately. If‭ ‬someone‭ ‬engages‭ ‬in‭ ‬unacceptable‭ ‬behavior,‭ anyone at the Omni‬‭ should feel empowered to take action to address the situation (i.e., talk to the person involved, point out violent or threatening behavior, ask them to leave the space, etc.). In cases where someone's safety is at risk, a temporary ban may be put in place until the Omni's conflict resolution process can be followed to resolution. ‬

5.‎ ‏If‭ ‬You‭ ‬Witness‭ ‬or‭ ‬Are‭ ‬Subject‭ ‬to‭ ‬Unacceptable‭ ‬Behavior

This section needs to be fleshed out more - please see it as a draft in progress.

• Everyone should feel empowered to confront aggressive individuals, but we recommend that you do not approach a potentially violent conflict without another community member, preferably a core organizer, co-present.

_________________________________________________________________________________

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 3:25 PM, <hol@gaskill.com> wrote:

friendly reminder - our conflict resolution process was born out of a desire to keep conflicts from consuming the time and energy of the whole community, especially those that are not involved in the conflict and do not have bandwidth to help mediate as an impartial party - this includes general meetings and discussion forums

On 2015-04-06 14:02, Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:

I'm sorry, Torrie, I really am....sudoconsensus may be needed?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Torrie Fischer <tdfischer@hackerbots.net> wrote:

This is very not important to me because I don't want to read this on sudo
discuss so I'm unsubscribing from sudo discuss for a while because everyone
keeps including sudo-discuss as if it somehow makes everything better.

On Monday, April 06, 2015 11:59:40 AM Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:

This is very important to me, because I said I wouldn't keep including sudo
discuss, and now i'm going back on that
but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
whether mine or not
so I'm responding to sudo discuss
to be heard by the group who is already hearing this

sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....

*People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
*Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic behavior
before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
*and a reformed community, *
*where they can try to learn and grow. *

*If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with them?*

* If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, *
*and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
*to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like the
state does,*
* if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution*
* besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
*whenever possible. *

*NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *

*IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one
mediation, *
*and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being
banned, and see the issues clear*
* my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
* I often think WildCat is right,*
* but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*

*You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
*In Some Case In Your Life, *
*If You Recognize The Process At All*

*If You're Willing To Work On It, *

*The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
* In Dire Circumstances *
*Not In Any Case You Want*
* And Every Case All The Time*
* Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*

*I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*

PERSONALLY I feel:
Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously exiled
and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to go. This
is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it and ignore
people

*If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*

*What would you do with them? *
*Put them all in one country? *
*Kind of like a concentration of them?*
* Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *

*We need to help people grow, and *
*if you consider yourself an organizer *
*or a helper of the world*
* it IS your job to help people grow a*
*nd give people another chance, *
*provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*

*It has to come from them. Yes.*
*And it is coming from Darin, *
*however slowly he's learning*

Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
And you're scaring people,
with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,

now that you think you have power

*i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking another
break.*

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc@gmail.com> wrote:

PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com>

wrote:

Also with that one month ban I feel that from then on there would need to
be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time I saw
him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a couple
of
blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to walk
away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing the
line with these people but what folks need to understand is that each of
these people have been going through conflict mediation in this space so
the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for the
taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. Though to
be
accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more members of
the space to address them.

On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com> wrote:

So I have known Darin for years and he has been called out for all of
this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him
misgendering
me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were several
witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a defensive
response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs. sexual
harassment
is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who have
called
him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by Joe
but
but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose a
month
ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have serious
consequences.

On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this thread...

Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the chance
to do so before a ban goes through.

I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....

My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is justified
and potent.

I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after we
discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic shit
like
we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is actively
working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from
harassment
daily.

Misgendering:
I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you Wildcat, because your
gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in general, and
ALSO camaraderie with you.
But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with continuous
editing on my part, as it is for others.
I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best to
correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too, now that
this
information is available

Sexual Language:
Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin and
neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, bc it
was
TMI about his sexual thoughts.
It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his tongue, but
not an implication of action either, more like expression.
Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private
thoughts
and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...

Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin

Love, seriously, love,

On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
tdfischer@hackerbots.net> wrote:

Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the hundreds
of
people subscribed to sudo-discuss".

This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. I
don't want
to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who is
fighting
who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather just
hack a
thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has their
shit
together and everyone gets along.

My Ƀ0.02.

On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
> These are community issues not personal issues.
>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical@comcast.net>

wrote:
> > Sudoers,
> >
> > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address

issues of

> > a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming

other

> > than
> > this public mailing list? Why anyone would want to go to Sudo room

after

> > reading this mailing list is beyond my comprehension. And it

really is a

> > great place. Can anyone think of another venue for these types of
> > discussions?
> >
> > Tracy
> > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com>

wrote:
> > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter

and

> > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and

handle

> > this like an adult."
> >
> > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that

"you need

> > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also clarified

by

> > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
> >
> > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin

did not

> > give any details of what happened.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <

wildcatofthewoods@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces

policy

> >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as

recent

> >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of

the

> >> safer
> >> spaces policy by aggressive behavior (aggressive swearing,

intentional

> >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an

aggressive way

> >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has had a

history

> >> of
> >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual

harassment and

> >> inappropriate behavior.
> >>
> >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not

feel

> >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
> >>
> >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and

Centi.

> >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior.

Pidgen has

> >> been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement

problems -

> >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
> >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on
> >> the
> >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org
> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

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