Yo David and anyone else who is up for a long read or three-

(Apologies for the delay writing back, I had a pile of work to clear.)

Agreed, there are times when one has to choose one's fights, and not everyone chooses the same fights at the same times.  Looks like we agree about fair use, anonymity, mesh, and the movement for self-ownership of personal data. 


Fighting back with ideas:

Majorly agreed re. "fight back ...with ideas."  And "...all the tech in the world won't help if people don't give a hoot because they're too exhausted by the Spectacle-induced trance of capital etc. to care, or don't see why its necessary or in their self-interest."  This point is HUGE, and it's rare to find others in the tech universe who get it.  Too often we confuse the tools with which we build, and the things we build, with the purposes for which we build.

Martin Luther King had a dial phone and a typewriter.  He changed the world with the power of his ideas.  Today each of us has a supercomputer on our desk and/or in our pocket, and can reach an audience of millions in the time it takes to blow our noses.

What we lack is an idea: but not just "an" idea, rather a set of ideas, an ecosystem of ideas that, taken together, open a new view of the world and ourselves in it, and inspire people to think deeply and act courageously. 

We've inherited a fortune in ideas from all of history, and yet it appears that something is missing, something that could form a bridge over which we can walk from the past and present into the future.  Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that happiness is not identical with meaning. 

The Spectacle and the circuses can produce happiness, but what they don't produce is a sense of meaning.  Instead we're told, often by our peers, that the most rational view is that life is meaningless, that the universe has no purpose, and that only a religious or romantic fool would believe otherwise.  But two NOTs don't make an AND: so what we're left with is a proverbial hole in our soul and nothing to fill it.  "The universe is DEAD!" is hardly a rallying cry for sustainability, much less for revolution.

I'm willing to take a chance on an idea, and call BS on the "life is meaningless" meme.  In point of fact the best available science shows us that the sense of deeply felt meaning in relation to something greater than self, is hardwired in our very brains, over the course of Darwinian time.  It has been one of the necessities for passing the tests of natural selection throughout human history, and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future. 

With that bit of empiricism under our belts, we can use what nature has given us and seek out the objectives of our sense of meaning and purpose in this new world of ours.  Life is as inherently, intrinsically, and un-commodifiably meaningful as we can see, hear, reach out for, and act on.  Seeking the objectives of meaning is how we'll discover the ideas we so badly need.


Money, information, and essence:

Money can be represented in ordered bits, and the vast majority of the world's money today is just that.  As no configuration of bits is thermodynamically privileged over any other, configurations are orthogonal to thermodynamics (I have a couple of thought-experiments to support that assertion).

It would be an impressive magic trick to convert something physical and impermanent, into a Platonic "form" that is eternal.  Yet this is exactly what Kapital does with human labor:  feed a human some calories, extract the converted energy of labor as a commodity, and exchange it for configurations of bits that are immune to entropy.

"...massive informationalization of our lives and in our language, of experience and of concepts..."  You make an excellent point here.  First I should say that I'm using the term "information" in a broader sense than "data," including the "stuff" that makes up the entire set of contents of conscious minds.  But you're making a really important distinction here, and I think we should start using it and trying to make it go viral. 

What you're getting at with "language... experience... and concepts..." is that there is something qualitative about us that does not readily reduce to "information" as "data."  David Chalmers and others have lately started getting rather bold about bringing back an oldschool term for this, that I think we should adopt:  qualia. 

Here we run into a kind of dualistic problem roughly analogous with the physics of light as particles and waves.  Language is clearly transmissible in binary bits (and in analog waveforms), and experience and concepts can be described in language.  To that extent, these things have an objective or quantitative existence.  But concepts and experience are only describable, and not truly reducible in any sense. 

As with your example about roses (and noses):  Even if we understood all of the chemicals produced by the rose, and everything that occurs in the nose and the brain to perceive the smell of roses, that knowledge is entirely distinct from the direct experience of smelling roses.  That knowledge does not enable us to predict what the subjective sensation of smelling roses will be like.  (Thankfully we don't have to worry about the internet monetization of smells yet: we don't have smelleos, much less YouSniff, and puritans trying to legislate against "pornolfactory" by saying "it's hard to define but you know it when you smell it!")

Qualia are different to objective knowledge.  Neither is "better" than the other; and we as humans live at once in both of those worlds.

The attempt to reduce experience to bits is not the fault of science, but the fault of those whose goal is to relentlessly monetise everything in existence without limit.  Again, it's all about trading in configurations of bits.  This configuration of bits that convey someone's emotions on their Facebook page, for that configuration of bits that convey an advertiser's payment into Facebook's bank account.  This configuration of bits that convey your thoughts and mine in email, for that configuration of bits that convey a data broker's payment into Google's bank account. 

It's the most efficient form of human energy-conversion possible, even "better" than slave labor because it's "voluntary" and humans do it constantly.  Perhaps Google's NSA-like AIs that scrape Gmail for every microgram of commodity value, will read what you and I are saying, and achieve something like Buddhist enlightenment.  More likely, we'll get red-flagged as philosophical subversives who might disobey their consumption quotas.

"...its a real mythology that needs unpacking."  We're doing that right here.  All we need to do is put our ideas together, yours and mine and anyone else who wants to jump into this, and find a way to get them out to a wider public than this obscure mailing list. 


Math, markets: 

Your critique of math converges with the point about qualia.  But in this, we can differentiate between math as Platonic forms that describe certain aspects of nature, and math as an instrumentality for extracting energy-conversion (surplus value) from organisms. 

Markets aren't rational: agreed.  Someone got a Nobel in economics for saying that in a bunch of peer-reviewed papers and/or a book. 

Though, game theory isn't a "total fail."  In fact it predicts why globalization is bad.  Experiments run with humans playing Prisoner's Dilemma discovered something interesting: if you only play one round, your self-interest advantage is to "defect" on the other player to gain your freedom at the expense of his/her incarceration, rather than "cooperate" with him/her to obtain freedom for you both.  Thus it became the conventional wisdom that self-interest always entails screwing-over the other person.

But then someone ran the game in "multiple iteration" mode, where the same two players go through it multiple times.  Under that condition it turned out that the self-interest advantage is to "cooperate" with the other player rather than "defect" on her/him. 

The result is: single-iteration rewards defection; multiple-iteration rewards cooperation.

OK, so how does that apply to globalism?  In a localized economy, you encounter the same people over and over again: your economic transactions with others are multiple-iteration play, and this rewards cooperation, not screwing the other guy/gal.  In a globalized economy, one can engage in single-iteration play again and again and again, all around the world.  One can screw-over the locals and then move on, finding someone else to screw-over before the bad reputation catches up. 

Globalism rewards those whose self-interest strategy is "repeat defection," in other words, rewards sociopaths.  And, lo & behold, since globalism has become the dominant paradigm, we see the emergence of a whole new class of economic sociopaths, as exemplified in the film _The Wolf Of Wall Street_.  The lead character in that film was if anything a bumbling oaf compared to the master fraudsters who nearly destroyed the economy in 2008 and then demanded and got gazillion-dollar "retention bonuses" paid for by taxpayer bailout money. 

Game theory tells us something important about how this happened, and gives us a powerful tool to oppose it: economic localization, which rewards cooperation. 

"Scientific rationalism is in a way a beautiful dream, like a wonderful, utopian idea, and a nice way to organize a representation of the world... [but] we don't operate, for even one millisecond, as rational creatures."  Sometimes we do operate as rational creatures, but I agree that for the most part we don't. 

For the most part, emotions determine behavior, and reason comes along after-the-fact with an explanation.  I can explain some of the neuroscience behind that statement, but the main thing is, we agree about the importance of emotions and qualia as factors in human experience and the choices people make (or don't make, as the case may be). 

From our lengthy conversation in email, I'm getting a sense of an idea or two that may be liberating: that qualia really matter, that we are not reducible to bits, that our lives are not to be monetized, and that our minds (our souls, if one prefers that language) are not to be bought and sold.  We are persons, not objects, and it is evil to treat a person as an object.  Each person has an entire universe within them.  Each person has an intrinsic and irreducible value.  Cooperation, rather than competition alone, is an essential in society, and people working together can build something meaningful.  Etc. etc.  All of this has been said many times before in other language, but it's time to update the language to meet our present circumstances.  The core message is about the worth of each person, and the right of each person to be self-determining, subject only to the limit of not harming others.

Dude, you are awesome.

-G.


======



On 14-02-03-Mon 6:43 AM, David Keenan wrote:
damn, g. when you write you right.

You're completely on point - but of course, I actually do care a lot about this issue. All I was inferring is once in a while the time comes to just shift productive energies into a new paradigm and maybe stop playing whack-a-mole with unsecurable modalities like email, and instead work on using something better to replace it. Same with the declining fair use and vanishing anonymity of the internet in general - the wonderful work the mesh folk are doing are to me a really big part of this solution. I almost mentioned something about appropriation (or feeding biting hands styrofoam peanuts) as a tactic being a noble way to cannabilize and take back our infrastructure that our tax dollars largely built, so I am 100% with you there. I have also said many times myself how we need to start a movement to have a right to data about ourselves, so I am thrilled to hear you say the same thing. Absolutely. 

When it comes to the event, we need to fight back with technological tools, but also with ideas. Not sure which is more important (or if thats even worth asking), they might be equal, but for me it comes down on the side of ideas, as all the tech in the world won't help if people don't give a hoot because they're too exhausted by the Spectacle-induced trance of capital etc to care, or dont see why its necessary or in their self-interest. I fully support the cryptoparties - what we also need are the crypto-semantic frames i guess, to help us put this fucking insane world where companies pirate and monitize our digital lives into a moral logic everyone, even our grandmas, can all intuitively grasp and therefore resist. Drive the demand as it were, for 'privacy'. I see events like this being part of that conversation on the side of ideas, but the cryptoparties, and making them less technically abstruse, are the other half for sure. Theory + practice = praxis, we need both.
[I have to break up your long paragraphs into shorter ones for legibility; I'm dyslexic and my eyes have trouble tracking lines in large blocks of text.]

You know the only thing I'm not totally sure I agree with is that money is information..if we're talking about money and not capital I might agree, if we're talking about capital (which of course is not just 'money') I'm too tired to know if I agree or not. 

On the one hand, I am wary of what I see everywhere as a massive informationalization of our lives and in our language, of experience and of concepts... a scientism really thats always trying to quantify the qualitative - or at least, valorize the former and dismiss the later, if it cannot transmute it. Its a naturalizing, essentializing cultural phenomenon wherein we are led to simply accept without question that the essential aspect of anything in the world is ultimately 'information':
Music is 'information', plants are 'information', we - online and in our 'genes' and 'dna' - the universe - are fundamentally reduceable to codes, chemical properties, etc. I suspect this aspect of our culture is tied to capital ideology (marx: 'they don't know it, but they are doing it') and biopower (think Patrick McCuehen saying 'I am not a number! I am a FREE MAN!'), although I can't think of how right now, because as I said I'm pretty tired, but anyway its a real mythology that needs unpacking, or totalizing kool-aid that needs a bit of unslurping.
Nothing against 'information' or using 'information' as but one metaphor with which analyze the workings of the world, but we should never mistake our tools of analysis - i.e., our abstracted representation of reality, like calling the smell of a rose 'information' - for reality itself, and it seems like that's whats actually happening at some level. We must be epistemologically reflexive and catch ourselves before we fall into that trap. So, I have to think a lot before I decide that money is 'at its root' essentializable as 'information', too.

Along the same lines another argument against money as essentially, fundamentally 'information' thing is this notion that its ultimately governed by 'math', or that the cycle of capital exploiting our surplus labor value is ultimately governed by math, or that financial markets are ultimately governed by math.
I'm not sure I agree, because markets are also ultimately governed by human beings, who are not just information, and human beings, as Plato well knew, but maybe Adam Smith and Descartes did not, are simply not rational. At all. This is in large part why game theory is a total fail, why people vote against their economic self-interest, and also why people are not outraged at the deprivation of their digital liberty, etc.
Scientific rationalism is in a way a beautiful dream, like a wonderful, utopian idea, and a nice way to organize a representation of the world, but it is not the world, and we don't operate, for even one millisecond, as rational creatures. Just as we do not build up the world out of a series of concepts - we just ARE in the world, all at once, and from that, we think of concepts to organize it with, for ourselves. We are subject to cognitive and emotional centers in our brain that were indirectly induced to connect in accordance with certain decidedly a-rational cultural ways and mores through processes of socialization of which we had no control...

Folks are tempted to think about 'math' as something pure, a religion practically, but how often do people get reflexive about math? Like the fact that we can't conceive of 'math' without also simultaneously conceiving of metaphors that have nothing whatsoever to actually do with math, but without which we could not perform math: If I say one is a 'higher' number than two, that has no strictly mathematical meaning.
One is not 'higher' than two. An increase in quantity is not an increase in height. It's simply an increase in quantity. And yet numbers go 'up'. Makes no sense man...mathematically. But it does at the level of non-math, in real life, because if I pour you a glass of water, the quantity increases as the level rises. But what if we lived in a society where I we poured water out on the floor and drank it from there. Would you say that numbers go up or down? Hm. So math itself is actually utterly imbricated with entirely qualitative dimensions that only make sense from the perspective of human experience. And so is not so pure: the basis for 'money', perhaps, after all.

Sleep now. Good nite.. and thanks for your awesome email..
-d  


On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:15 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <g2g-public01@att.net> wrote:


David, it's not to your discredit, it's to the discredit of Kapital, and it's been foisted on the whole Neo-Proletariat, which is anyone making less than six figures a year (look up union wages in 1974 and then apply increases at the rate of inflation every year with compound interest: that's what we all _should_ be earning right now).  We shouldn't blame ourselves for getting screwed.

Here's another example of Kapital sinking its hooks into our brains (I'm quoting you here not to criticize you, but to illustrate how common this type of dynamic has become):  "Personally, once I gave up on email qua email as being meaningfully secure, I sort of stopped caring who my provider was."

The emotional narrative in that sentence is: "...once I gave up... I sort of stopped caring..."

That's what the Bigs want us to do: give up and stop caring, the better to spend our efforts producing and consuming.  And they are enormously clever at how they go about it: too much work, just enough bread, and plenty of circuses.  About which more below under "Kapital."

Where you say "I really don't have an answer for this one," that makes the vitally important point that we ALL need answers to this.  The fact that we don't have comprehensive answers and solutions shows exactly where our efforts need to be. 

Agreed, email is broken.  IMHO the whole internet architecture is broken (don't get me started;-) but in any case we need new infrastructure and a solid collaborative effort to build it.  Not just "good enough for coders & geeks to use" but "good enough for your grandmother to use without you providing tech support."  You shouldn't have to _teach_ people to use crypto: it should be built-in, with nothing more than a check in a box to encrypt/decrypt email.  The global community of hackers can build all of that and much more if we choose.

Good point about "metadata" being a euphemism to obscure the fact that it's OUR data.  In the past I've used the term "CDR" for "call detail records," a telephony term that has lately been in the news since it's what NSA gets from our phone calls (date, time, calling number, called number, duration of call); it could also be used to refer to email to/from addresses and subject headers.  But "OUR data," emphasis on OUR, is better, because it's so direct and assertive. 

This translates to something specific we should be demanding: personal ownership of all data about ourselves, without compromise.  Treat it like copyright with exceptions for fair use.  Make the maximum demand, so that when the usual attempts at legislative watering-down occur, we still get something better than if we had tried to "be reasonable" and "pre-compromise" our demands. 

If it's necessary to use Facebook for publicity, the way to do it is by using a fictitious name & email address for the FB account, and then putting up a message on the Facebook page saying "find us _here_ (link)," which goes to a website on a more trustworthy hosting service.  Then, that website does not have the accursed Facebook beacon-button on it that lets Facebook follow people around like a stalker.  (Anyone who can't bother clicking a link that goes off Facebook, isn't worth the effort to reach.  Seriously.) 

That's the answer to having to feed the hand that bites:  Feed it styrofoam peanuts with no food value.  Use its own infrastructure sparingly and temporarily, as a way to get people to leave it behind.  For example, one of the topics at the surveillance event ought to be a how-to for getting the snoops & stalkers out of our lives: dumping Google, installing security apps on your browser, installing an OFF switch in your mobile device, etc., all with specifics: this email service, this app, here's where to find it, how to do it, etc.

About Kapital:

Karl Marx got it almost-right, but "surplus value" is an abstraction: the real deal is the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  Kapital depends on "energy conversion."  What humans are to Kapital, are highly efficient energy-converters that turn calories into money.  The abstraction layer is between the work output of the human organism, and the translation of that into money.  At root, money is energy converted to information.  And information is ultimately Platonic, governed by math and orthogonal to thermodynamics. 

The goal of Kapital is to extract every calorie that's not needed to keep the energy-converters producing and consuming.  Latest example: Amazon's patent for "predictive shipping," where they send you things that you haven't ordered, but Amazon predicts you'll want, on the premise that you'll probably keep them.  Translation: people will pay for the "stuff" because they're too tired to deal with the hassle of returning it.    Amazon predicts, humans acquiesce.

The reason that so many people "give up and stop caring" is that they are being sucked dry.  Think of all the "too tired" moments and what they have in common.

In the end, the scam is self-limiting.  Kapital thrives on the exponential function: the unlimited growth of money and the economy despite the limits of a finite planet.  Kapital will break as it runs into resource limits, including the limits of humans to relentlessly produce and relentlessly consume. 

-G.


=====




On 14-02-03-Mon 2:33 AM, David Keenan wrote:
Matt, I will bring up your point at the next organizing meeting for sure. Thank you for being willing to sponsor.

Yardena - your point is exceedingly well taken, as I sit here from my gmail account, writing about how if want to do the event, we should post it on facebook...sigh.  

To my discredit, I really don't have an answer for this one except that in my opinion, email as a medium is itself an inherently broken means of secure communication, a lotta people on sudo have google accounts, and yeah sudo posts regularly to facebook, which is why I asked.. Sometimes you have to reach out to people in an archaic medium they already grok - like on a listserv, or fb - in order to tell them that is maybe not The Best Way. 

Personally, once I gave up on email qua email as being meaningfully secure, I sort of stopped caring who my provider was. Or teaching people how to encrypt their message content, only to have them never get that doesn't secure their attachments or the "metadata" or render messages readable from the web from any device anymore or or or (I kind of hate the term metadata btw, as in mass culture 'metadata' has seemingly come to infer something other than 'our' data, and as if metadata is not also our data, just like our non-meta data). 

But yes for sure, if we care about 'privacy', we DO need to be off fb (and onto building up diaspora or something similar), and, we need to be off email. And use some darkmail, or otr or a private forum or something else.  

I feel like for us to all get off fb, we need a real alternative to go to, and a campaign. Same with email. But before we build that up.. using fb/email or not using it, it seems like being caught between a rock and a hard place when trying to promote an event but not feed the biting hand, you know?

As this is precisely the position I feel like the system of capital as a whole places us in, far beyond mark zuckerberg and google and 'big data': We can't help but feed the hand that bites us. We 'need' to be bitten, so our traumatized, bitten selves can feed somebody or something else..often while simultaneously handing a bite to somebody else less powerful, as in in the case of gentrification. If that partially re-inverted idiom still makes any sense..which um, no, looks like it doesn't. Well. Sorry, tired. But I totally get you.

Yeah. Tired.

David

On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 1:12 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <g2g-public01@att.net> wrote:

Re. "what does the rest of sudo think?"

Microphones & cameras on shot-spotters?  What about the software-controlled mics & cameras on smartphones, that people carry into indoor places where the DAC cameras and mics can't go?  If it doesn't have a physical OFF switch or a removable battery, it's always ON.

NSA snooping your metadata?  What about Google Mail and Google Voice scraping the full content of both sides of every email & conversation for everything down to the level of "sentiment analysis" which is a euphemism for spying on your emotions?  "Targeted advertising" is a distraction; Big Data is the real product.

DAC data center creepy?  What about Facebook creepy, and Sudo having a Facebook page, even as Mark Zuckerberg spends $16 million to buy up every house on his block, so his neighbors can't do unto him that which he does unto others...? 

Big Power is inherently corrupt wherever it resides.  Big Data is Big Power.  Even if it has good marketing, cute logos, total convenience, free apps, free games, and endless entertainment.

Corporate power says "don't bite the hand that feeds you."

Resistance says "don't feed the hand that bites you."

-G.


=====





On 14-02-02-Sun 11:12 AM, David Keenan wrote:
Jeremy - Of course! And we should.

what does the rest of sudo think?

On Sunday, February 2, 2014, Jeremy Entwistle <jwentwistle@cryptolab.net> wrote:
I think that's an amazing idea. How to do you feel about the mesh and our cryptoparty (2/23) being mentioned? As both are very practical methods of promoting secure and decentralized communications.

On 2014-02-01 21:58, David Keenan wrote:
Hey all,

The Bay Area Public School has scheduled a surveillance awareness
event on Friday 2/21 7-9pm in the common room entitled Spied Upon:
Surveillance & Resistance. I was hoping we (sudo) could co-host this
event with BAPS, because I think it'd be really cool if we start doing
more events together. BAPS can do most all of the setup, but it'd be
great if Sudo can do outreach too, since I think it'd be in the
interest of both communities.

What do you think?

There's a twofold focus on informants and technological surveillance.
Here's the Sudo Room calendar EVENT LINK [1]. Details are below -

SPIED UPON: SURVEILLANCE AND RESISTANCE
Join us Friday February 21st 7-9 pm at the Bay Area Public School [2]
& Sudo Room
 2141 Broadway (enter on 22nd), Oakland - three blocks from 19th St.
Bart!

Between the ever-present fear of informants to the profusion of
metadata collection and the construction of the Domain Awareness
Center [3] (DAC) in Oakland, the growing problem of surveillance has
made it into the mainstream dialog, but the people and communities
most affected are sometimes being left out of the conversation.

Join us for an evening of ideas, discussion and questions about
solidarity in the face of this intimidation. How do we support one
another and our movements when being targeted by police, surveillance
and informants? What are the legal, community and political responses
that can best keep the larger "us" safe and allow our movements to
flourish?

- SPEAKERS -
JASON KIRKPATRICK, filmmaker and activist, will show clips of and
discuss his upcoming film, _SPIED UPON_ [4]. Interviewing activists
across the world and telling his own personal story, Jason will take
us on a journey into one of Europe's biggest political surveillance
scandals, documenting growing movements of resistance to surveillance
along the way.

ZAHRA BILLOO, Civil rights attorney and Executive Director at the Bay
Area COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS [5] (CAIR), speaks on the
use of informants in a post-9/11 context, their impact, the
community's resistance and lessons learned.

RICHARD BROWN, Black Panther and member of the SF8 [6], will share his
history with undercover police and surveillance, imparting the 'long
view' of solidarity learned from a lifetime of activism.

- PANEL DISCUSSION -
Q & A with the speakers will follow in conversation with
representatives from:
 BAY AREA ANTI-REPRESSION COMMITTEE [7]
BAY AREA COALITION TO STOP POLITICAL REPRESSION [8] (at AROC)
 LEGAL WORKERS OF THE NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD [9] (NLG)
OAKLAND PRIVACY WORKING GROUP [10] (OPWG / anti-DAC)

All donations gratefully received will go to the Bay Area
Anti-Repression Committee and the Legal Workers at the Bay Area
chapter of the NLG - two groups long supporting the Bay Area radical
community with legal and educational assistance. Thank you!

Links:
------
[1] https://sudoroom.org/ai1ec_event/spied-upon-bay-area-premiere-baps/
[2] http://thepublicschool.org/node/36455
[3] http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center
[4] http://spiedupon.com/
[5] http://www.cair.com/
[6] http://www.freethesf8.org/who.html
[7] https://oaklandantirepression.wordpress.com/
[8]
http://araborganizing.org/campaigns-our-work/coalition-to-stop-political-repression/
[9] http://www.nlgsf.org/national-lawyers-guild-mission-statement
[10] https://oaklandprivacy.wordpress.com/

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