Some of this is really critical for good reason, but I encourage you to re-think some of the things you say Patrick, because it's not my style at all, and I think there are a lot of people on board, that don't like meetings for other reasons.  

So, in response to these comments, I have added a few of my own explanations, so my voice can be heard, because I think some of us have been forced to have long meetings, instead of contributing in ways we are more comfortable doing as hackers:

"But we had to go through this for one hour, an EGO driven conversation starts.

Its about regulating, rules, hypotheticals, bureaucracy, installing
special sudo functions almost like police...

Do we really want to loose somuch time about wording of a document
which is only read
by the people who wrote the document?"
  1. Ego Driven conversation:  
    Where I will agree with you is that the meetings are long, and the same people are contributing, and I think this has to do with format, and so I don't go to the meetings.  I suggest you don't go if you don't like it either, and I propose that we offline as much as possible, have votes, and reduce the time of meetings to 45 minutes or 1/2 hour, and stop with the introductions et all. 

    That being said, accusing the process of being "EGO driven" is more of an aesthetic to which you ascribe to your world(and possibly others), but not me.  I think it's how some people just work things out, and they are trying hard to make SUDO a better place.  If we really want to discuss things, let's organize our thoughts on paper, and actually contribute, yay or nay, before meeting on Wednesdays so that we can just take a vote and keep the meetings under 45 minutes.  
  2. Bureaucracy and Police:
    In my opinion, the notion of  just letting things happen "naturally," isn't a valid argument, and I think that's what you are saying.  Going back to the aesthetics of things, natural to me means that smart people come together to form our own way of doing things, usually involving intellectual process, and usually that involves some sort of documentation.  That culture is fine with me.  Solving the problems in the moment on a whim seems very unfair, and I don't want to be part of a drum circle when a problem happens(sorry for that joke)...Just not my thing.  Having someone work through this process with us, seems like a good idea,  You obviously have the right to comment on this and actively seek an alternative, but I don't think the alternative should be to reduce overhead for no reason.  Although, I would love to reduce overhead altogether. 
Overall, I don't disagree with a lot of what you say about making the meetings better for everyone.  But, I think it's not very logical to assume that bureaucracy is bad, and that we are trying to police things.  I don't even go to meetings normally(because they are 3 freaking hours), and I don't think this process is how you describe from what I have read and overheard, and from the meetings I have attended.

I know you're frustrated, but I think we can improve these things, and discuss them in a different way that saves people time and makes the process have more intellectual vigor. 



-Rusty

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Eddan <eddan@clear.net> wrote:
Patrick -

I share your frustration, even as I end up taking part in what is frustrating about it. It is unfortunate the manner in which these discussions have evolved, but I think it is also worth considering why these sadly uninviting conversations keep coming up so that we can try to fix it rather than ignore what it might signify when articulated in a more friendly spirit. 

It is my impression that underlying all the technicalities is a sense that we're broaching the point where making decisions on behalf of the whole feels more important. You could say we are graduating into the next phase of the spiritual constitution of this unlikely community. It stirs emotion because we share the dissatisfaction of the existing models of how this is done regularly and want passionately for this to be different than that. 

I know that you're right that the rules-based version of this feeling is likely not the best way to go. But we still have to figure out how to make decisions together, even if it is the choreography of a puppet-show folk-dance.

-Eddan


On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Patrick Schmidt <psbschmidt@googlemail.com> wrote:
Dear Sudoers,

what happened last week again?

Everybody was excited, we had a birthday, we had awesome food and
awesome people.
As hackers we come to share what we are passionate about, get
inspired, plan new projects,
and are excellent to each other, work together on things at Sudo and
plan awesome activities.

But than a big rupture. A new ever returning topic comes to the agenda,
the whole energy of the room fades away.

The looks of the faces of the people all say the same:
lets get as quickly over this point as possible.

But we had to go through this for one hour, an EGO driven conversation starts.

Its about regulating, rules, hypotheticals, bureaucracy, installing
special sudo functions almost like police.

we were arguing an hour over some trivial wording.

is this really the way we want to go?

Not being able to solve problems in the moment at the meetings?
Or to keep the positive energy going at the meetings?
Paralyzing ourselved for one hour again instead of sharing?

Do we really want to loose somuch time about wording of a document
which is only read
by the people who wrote the document?

We all enjoy coming to sudoroom. For a growing and thriving community
it should be easy
to tell friends about it, invite people and say "just be excellent to
each other and check it out",
nobody will read any commendments or laws before coming.

But what would new people see at the meetings? the same uninviting
left brain driven discussions we see in politics and law...

Do we really want to be ruled by a police system again within our
newborn community?

We are all one, one community, one people, one tribe.

Dont get me wrong, I dont want to blame, accuse or criticize anybody.

I want to put awareness of what the Eg wants:

The EGO seperates itself from all the others. The EGO wants to hang on
to the old system
of ruling, devide and conquer. The EGO is afraid of a world of the 'WE"

We have to get over the stage of EGO driven tactics to create a truely
free community.

So what can we do about it?

we have to show a lot of love towards the EGO driven minds. Hold em
tight, say we love em, and that we appreciate their effort for the
community.
After all (lets hope) they have good intentions.
But we also have to make it clear that we dont need all these
regulations and the seperation from the rest of the world.

we are one big family, and only if we accept this we can build a better future.

just my personal feelings,
p.
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--
Cheers,

Rusty Lindgren