[sudo-discuss] sudo-discuss Digest, Vol 4, Issue 208
aestetix
aestetix at aestetix.com
Thu Feb 28 12:54:50 PST 2013
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It might be worth getting a statement from Eric Michaud, who runs
collegeoflockpicking.com.
On 2/28/13 12:42 PM, Jehan Tremback wrote:
> Saying that lock picking classes cause burglary is like saying
> that karate classes cause assault.
>
> -Jehan Tremback
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Cyrus Farivar
> <cfarivar at gmail.com <mailto:cfarivar at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> FWIW?I'm in the process right now of writing up a short brief on
> the whole thing for Ars Technica, and am pointing out how lock
> picking has long been a part of hacker culture. If you have a
> statement, I can include/add it.
>
> -C
>
> -- Cyrus Farivar "suh-ROOS FAR-ih-var"
>
> Journalist and radio producer | cyrusfarivar.com
> <http://cyrusfarivar.com> Author, "The Internet of Elsewhere" |
> internetofelsewhere.com <http://internetofelsewhere.com> US: +1 510
> 394 5485 <tel:%2B1%20510%20394%205485> (m) | Twitter/Skype:
> cfarivar "Being a good writer is 3% talent, 97% not being
> distracted by the Internet." cfarivar at cfarivar.org
> <mailto:cfarivar at cfarivar.org>
>
> On Thursday, February 28, 2013 at 12:31 PM,
> sudo-discuss-request at lists.sudoroom.org
> <mailto:sudo-discuss-request at lists.sudoroom.org> wrote:
>
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>> specific than "Re: Contents of sudo-discuss digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: FUD around Lockpicking class (Eddan Katz) 2. Re: FUD
>> around Lockpicking class (Eddan Katz) 3. Re: FUD around
>> Lockpicking class (Anon195714) 4. Re: FUD around Lockpicking
>> class (Eddan Katz) 5. Re: FUD around Lockpicking class (Shawn
>> Lesniak) 6. Re: FUD around Lockpicking class (mark burdett)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:22:20 -0800 From: Eddan Katz
>> <eddan at clear.net <mailto:eddan at clear.net>> To:
>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org> Subject: Re:
>> [sudo-discuss] FUD around Lockpicking class Message-ID:
>> <512FA05C.7070407 at clear.net <mailto:512FA05C.7070407 at clear.net>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> It would be worth our while for someone to draft a short
>> statement that can be posted on the Workshop Weekend website or
>> as a Sudo Room blog post. I'd be willing to help if someone did a
>> first draft. So lame of Jean Quan to not even look into it.
>>
>> In sum, I think there are two major elements to committing a
>> crime - the act itself and the intent. In order to have both, you
>> need knowledge. There's nothing in here about the socially
>> positive reasons why you'd want to teach that. Take the common
>> experience everyone can relate to of locking yourself out of your
>> house, car, office, etc.. People need to know how to pick locks
>> most certainly in circumstances that are authorized and often in
>> the case of an emergency. We may want to clarify that in regards
>> to intent - we have the opposite motivation to teach people these
>> skills. It will go a long way to explicitly say that we by no
>> means condone the use of those skills for criminal purposes.
>>
>> We should post it and send it directly to the authors of the
>> articles before the end of the day, so that a further story can
>> be written about it. May also want to notify Susan Mernit @
>> Oakland Local to get a little more fair and balanced reporting.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/27/13 11:20 PM, J.D. Zamfirescu wrote:
>>> more:
>>>
>>> http://www.insidebayarea.com/breaking-news/ci_22683660/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-apologizes-promoting-lock-picking
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Matthew Senate
>>> <mattsenate at gmail.com <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's awesome, free press!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 PM, rusty lindgren
>>> <rustylindgren at gmail.com <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh dear gawd. This is possibly the most moronic piece of
>>> "journalism" I have ever seen.
>>>
>>> Are they unaware of the fact that you can go to a lock-picking
>>> school(actually it teaches you way more), and that this is just
>>> a cheaper version of that? (see:
>>> http://www.lock411.com/training.html).
>>>
>>> Also, virtually no crime in Oakland involves skilled
>>> lock-picking, because it's a waste of time.
>>>
>>> Don't worry though, you can train in deadly martial arts, go to
>>> the shooting range, and buy ninja swords just about anywhere in
>>> Oakland, but picking a Masterlock is "appalling".
>>>
>>> -Rusty
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Anca Mosoiu
>>> <anca at techliminal.com <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>
>>> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Heads up. Looks like some folks aren't too happy that people
>>> are learning how to pick locks this weekend.
>>>
>>> http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9010047
>>>
>>>
>>>
Here is Oakland Local's response:
>>>
>>> http://m.oaklandlocal.com/article/oaklands-mayor-quan-apologizes-mentioning-weekend-lockpicking-class-really
>>>
>>>
>>>
Anca
>>>
>>>
>>> -- -=-=-=- Anca Mosoiu | Tech Liminal anca at techliminal.com
>>> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com> M:
>>> (510) 220-6660 <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660>
>>> <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660> http://techliminal.com | T:
>>> @techliminal | F: facebook.com/techliminal
>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Cheers,
>>>
>>> Rusty Lindgren **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
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>>
- ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:35:48 -0800 From: Eddan Katz
>> <eddan at clear.net <mailto:eddan at clear.net>> To:
>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org> Subject: Re:
>> [sudo-discuss] FUD around Lockpicking class Message-ID:
>> <512FA384.6050105 at clear.net <mailto:512FA384.6050105 at clear.net>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> Chicago Lock v. Fanberg is the case I was telling you about last
>> night, J.D. -
>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17605115413487325945.
>>
>>
Author of lock-picking manuals gets sued by the manufacturer of the
>> locks. Chicago Lock loses on its trade secret misappropriation
>> claim. Here's an excerpt from the facts of the case -
>>
>> Appellant Victor Fanberg, the son of locksmith Morris Fanberg and
>> a locksmith in his own right, has published a number of
>> locksmith manuals for conventional locks. Realizing that no
>> compilation had been made of tubular lock key codes, in 1975
>> Fanberg advertised in a locksmith journal,/Locksmith
>> Ledger,/requesting that individual locksmiths transmit to him
>> serial number-key code correlations in their possession in
>> exchange for a copy of a complete compilation when finished. A
>> number of locksmiths complied, and in late 1976 Fanberg and his
>> father began to sell a two-volume publication of tubular lock
>> codes, including those of Ace locks, entitled "A-Advanced
>> Locksmith's Tubular Lock Codes." In 1976 and 1977 Fanberg
>> advertised in the manuals in the/Locksmith Ledger/for $49.95 and
>> indicated that it would be supplemented as new correlations
>> became known./See/Excerpt at 95-98. About 350 manuals had been
>> sold at the time of trial. The District Court found that Fanberg
>> "had lost or surrendered control over persons who could purchase
>> the books,"/id./at 98, meaning that nonlocksmiths could acquire
>> the code manuals.
>>
>> The books contain correlations which would allow a person
>> equipped with a tubular key grinding machine to make duplicate
>> keys for any listed Ace lock if the serial number of the lock was
>> known. On some models, the serial numbers appear on the exterior
>> of the lock face. Thus, Fanberg's manuals would make it
>> considerably easier4*403(and less expensive) for a person to
>> obtain (legitimately or illegitimately) duplicate keys to Ace
>> locks without going through the Company's screening process. This
>> is what caused consternation to the Company and some of its
>> customers. At no time did Fanberg seek, or the Company grant,
>> permission to compile and sell the key codes. Nor did the
>> individual locksmiths seek authorization from the Company or
>> their customers before transmitting their key code data to
>> Fanberg.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/27/13 11:20 PM, J.D. Zamfirescu wrote:
>>> more:
>>>
>>> http://www.insidebayarea.com/breaking-news/ci_22683660/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-apologizes-promoting-lock-picking
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Matthew Senate
>>> <mattsenate at gmail.com <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's awesome, free press!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 PM, rusty lindgren
>>> <rustylindgren at gmail.com <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh dear gawd. This is possibly the most moronic piece of
>>> "journalism" I have ever seen.
>>>
>>> Are they unaware of the fact that you can go to a lock-picking
>>> school(actually it teaches you way more), and that this is just
>>> a cheaper version of that? (see:
>>> http://www.lock411.com/training.html).
>>>
>>> Also, virtually no crime in Oakland involves skilled
>>> lock-picking, because it's a waste of time.
>>>
>>> Don't worry though, you can train in deadly martial arts, go to
>>> the shooting range, and buy ninja swords just about anywhere in
>>> Oakland, but picking a Masterlock is "appalling".
>>>
>>> -Rusty
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Anca Mosoiu
>>> <anca at techliminal.com <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>
>>> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Heads up. Looks like some folks aren't too happy that people
>>> are learning how to pick locks this weekend.
>>>
>>> http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9010047
>>>
>>>
>>>
Here is Oakland Local's response:
>>>
>>> http://m.oaklandlocal.com/article/oaklands-mayor-quan-apologizes-mentioning-weekend-lockpicking-class-really
>>>
>>>
>>>
Anca
>>>
>>>
>>> -- -=-=-=- Anca Mosoiu | Tech Liminal anca at techliminal.com
>>> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com> M:
>>> (510) 220-6660 <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660>
>>> <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660> http://techliminal.com | T:
>>> @techliminal | F: facebook.com/techliminal
>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Cheers,
>>>
>>> Rusty Lindgren **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
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>>
- ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:06:24 -0800 From: Anon195714
>> <anon195714 at sbcglobal.net <mailto:anon195714 at sbcglobal.net>> To:
>> Eddan Katz <eddan at clear.net <mailto:eddan at clear.net>> Cc:
>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org> Subject: Re:
>> [sudo-discuss] FUD around Lockpicking class Message-ID:
>> <512FAAB0.7030205 at sbcglobal.net
>> <mailto:512FAAB0.7030205 at sbcglobal.net>> Content-Type:
>> text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>> Hi Eddan-
>>
>> So was Ace asserting some kind of copyright or other IP control
>> over the correlations between the key codes and the locks? That's
>> funny: like copyrighting the names & numbers in the phone
>> book;-)
>>
>> What kind of lawful right would Ace have had to control those
>> codes? I don't see any.
>>
>> Classic case of "security by obscurity" in the face of the data
>> being openly available to anyone who just looks. That plus Ace
>> not having adequate steps in place to verify the identity of
>> people asking for duplicate keys ("security by laziness";-). (As
>> if any burglar is going to order keys and wait a week to get
>> them, when smashing a window provides instant gratification?)
>>
>> Meanwhile, it's since been demonstrated that Ace locks and other
>> tubular locks of same size, are tremendously easy to pick with a
>> tool anyone can make from a Bic pen housing.
>>
>> To my mind the main value of learning to pick locks is to become
>> more aware of one's own security environment: particularly the
>> degree to which we very often depend on crappy locks, and then,
>> with the newly-acquired situational awareness about locks, the
>> degree to which we very often leave open all manner of other
>> security holes in our physical surroundings. Nothing says
>> "replace your front door lock now!" like being able to pick it
>> with two paper clips in less than a minute. And then you look at
>> the big window right next to the front door... and the
>> un-shredded bills you put in the recycle bin with your name &
>> account numbers all over them... and the valuables in the back
>> seat of your car... etc.
>>
>> Next is the ability to get into places one has auth to be in:
>> such as when one locks oneself out of one's own house or car (or
>> in my case, PBX room on client site after hours, blush...).
>>
>> Equally is the ability to do likewise for friends (have done that
>> a handful of times).
>>
>> And from that, the generalization to our entire subculture, of
>> the degree of security awareness we should have all the time.
>>
>> Picking locks is like being able to disassemble, clean, and
>> reassemble a firearm: that skill does not make a law-abiding
>> person start contemplating committing murders. But it might make
>> one start to think more about personal safety on the streets at
>> night.
>>
>> Lastly, I'll fess up to something. I think it's cool as hell
>> when people who ordinarily hack around with software, start
>> hacking around with _mechanical_ stuff. I'm bigtime in favor of
>> people learning how to hack around with _mechanical_ stuff.
>> "Physical layer" as new playground. To this list add your home
>> appliances (the ones with motors in 'em) and rotary dial phones,
>> but that's another topic for another day.
>>
>> TTYs-
>>
>> -G.
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>> On 13-02-28-Thu 10:35 AM, Eddan Katz wrote:
>>> Chicago Lock v. Fanberg is the case I was telling you about
>>> last night, J.D. -
>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17605115413487325945.
>>>
>>>
Author of lock-picking manuals gets sued by the manufacturer of the
>>> locks. Chicago Lock loses on its trade secret misappropriation
>>> claim. Here's an excerpt from the facts of the case -
>>>
>>> Appellant Victor Fanberg, the son of locksmith Morris Fanberg
>>> and a locksmith in his own right, has published a number of
>>> locksmith manuals for conventional locks. Realizing that no
>>> compilation had been made of tubular lock key codes, in 1975
>>> Fanberg advertised in a locksmith journal, /Locksmith Ledger,/
>>> requesting that individual locksmiths transmit to him serial
>>> number-key code correlations in their possession in exchange
>>> for a copy of a complete compilation when finished. A number of
>>> locksmiths complied, and in late 1976 Fanberg and his father
>>> began to sell a two-volume publication of tubular lock codes,
>>> including those of Ace locks, entitled "A-Advanced Locksmith's
>>> Tubular Lock Codes." In 1976 and 1977 Fanberg advertised in the
>>> manuals in the /Locksmith Ledger/ for $49.95 and indicated that
>>> it would be supplemented as new correlations became known.
>>> /See/ Excerpt at 95-98. About 350 manuals had been sold at the
>>> time of trial. The District Court found that Fanberg "had lost
>>> or surrendered control over persons who could purchase the
>>> books," /id./ at 98, meaning that nonlocksmiths could acquire
>>> the code manuals.
>>>
>>> The books contain correlations which would allow a person
>>> equipped with a tubular key grinding machine to make duplicate
>>> keys for any listed Ace lock if the serial number of the lock
>>> was known. On some models, the serial numbers appear on the
>>> exterior of the lock face. Thus, Fanberg's manuals would make
>>> it considerably easier4*403 (and less expensive) for a person
>>> to obtain (legitimately or illegitimately) duplicate keys to
>>> Ace locks without going through the Company's screening
>>> process. This is what caused consternation to the Company and
>>> some of its customers. At no time did Fanberg seek, or the
>>> Company grant, permission to compile and sell the key codes.
>>> Nor did the individual locksmiths seek authorization from the
>>> Company or their customers before transmitting their key code
>>> data to Fanberg.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/27/13 11:20 PM, J.D. Zamfirescu wrote:
>>>> more:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.insidebayarea.com/breaking-news/ci_22683660/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-apologizes-promoting-lock-picking
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Matthew Senate
>>>> <mattsenate at gmail.com <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>
>>>> <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's awesome, free press!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 PM, rusty lindgren
>>>> <rustylindgren at gmail.com <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>
>>>> <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear gawd. This is possibly the most moronic piece of
>>>> "journalism" I have ever seen.
>>>>
>>>> Are they unaware of the fact that you can go to a
>>>> lock-picking school(actually it teaches you way more), and
>>>> that this is just a cheaper version of that? (see:
>>>> http://www.lock411.com/training.html).
>>>>
>>>> Also, virtually no crime in Oakland involves skilled
>>>> lock-picking, because it's a waste of time.
>>>>
>>>> Don't worry though, you can train in deadly martial arts, go
>>>> to the shooting range, and buy ninja swords just about
>>>> anywhere in Oakland, but picking a Masterlock is
>>>> "appalling".
>>>>
>>>> -Rusty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Anca Mosoiu
>>>> <anca at techliminal.com <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>
>>>> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> Heads up. Looks like some folks aren't too happy that people
>>>> are learning how to pick locks this weekend.
>>>>
>>>> http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9010047
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Here is Oakland Local's response:
>>>>
>>>> http://m.oaklandlocal.com/article/oaklands-mayor-quan-apologizes-mentioning-weekend-lockpicking-class-really
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Anca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- -=-=-=- Anca Mosoiu | Tech Liminal anca at techliminal.com
>>>> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>
>>>> M: (510) 220-6660 <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660>
>>>> <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660> http://techliminal.com | T:
>>>> @techliminal | F: facebook.com/techliminal
>>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Rusty Lindgren **
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
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- ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:22:28 -0800 From: Eddan Katz
>> <eddan at clear.net <mailto:eddan at clear.net>> To: Anon195714
>> <anon195714 at sbcglobal.net <mailto:anon195714 at sbcglobal.net>> Cc:
>> "sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>"
>> <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>> Subject: Re:
>> [sudo-discuss] FUD around Lockpicking class Message-ID:
>> <53E0AF57-F2E7-4B85-A7F6-825D45B24A58 at clear.net
>> <mailto:53E0AF57-F2E7-4B85-A7F6-825D45B24A58 at clear.net>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> They threw everything they could at him, and in the lower court,
>> the Trademark over the name (& logo?) of the company stuck a
>> bit, but was a loser. The trade secret claim, which is under
>> state unfair competition law, was decided in favor of the lock
>> company. Fanberg appealed. This is the opinion from the appellate
>> court reversing the lower court's decision that Fanberg had
>> misappropriated trade secrets.
>>
>> In order to qualify as a trade secret, you need only have
>> confidential stamps on it or physical barrier to secure the
>> what-not. Encrypting something would be a partial de facto way
>> of asserting trade secret protection, most definitely. What
>> counts as eligible to be protected as trade secrets? Most
>> accurately vague definition I can think of is know-how. People
>> often associate it with "the secret sauce" in Coke, Big Macs,
>> etc.. Many of you may have come across it in your employment
>> agreement laying out what you can't take with you when you
>> leave.
>>
>> sent from eddan.com <http://eddan.com>
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 11:06 AM, Anon195714
>> <anon195714 at sbcglobal.net <mailto:anon195714 at sbcglobal.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Eddan-
>>>
>>> So was Ace asserting some kind of copyright or other IP
>>> control over the correlations between the key codes and the
>>> locks? That's funny: like copyrighting the names & numbers in
>>> the phone book;-)
>>>
>>> What kind of lawful right would Ace have had to control those
>>> codes? I don't see any.
>>>
>>> Classic case of "security by obscurity" in the face of the
>>> data being openly available to anyone who just looks. That plus
>>> Ace not having adequate steps in place to verify the identity
>>> of people asking for duplicate keys ("security by laziness";-).
>>> (As if any burglar is going to order keys and wait a week to
>>> get them, when smashing a window provides instant
>>> gratification?)
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, it's since been demonstrated that Ace locks and
>>> other tubular locks of same size, are tremendously easy to pick
>>> with a tool anyone can make from a Bic pen housing.
>>>
>>> To my mind the main value of learning to pick locks is to
>>> become more aware of one's own security environment:
>>> particularly the degree to which we very often depend on crappy
>>> locks, and then, with the newly-acquired situational awareness
>>> about locks, the degree to which we very often leave open all
>>> manner of other security holes in our physical surroundings.
>>> Nothing says "replace your front door lock now!" like being
>>> able to pick it with two paper clips in less than a minute. And
>>> then you look at the big window right next to the front door...
>>> and the un-shredded bills you put in the recycle bin with your
>>> name & account numbers all over them... and the valuables in
>>> the back seat of your car... etc.
>>>
>>> Next is the ability to get into places one has auth to be in:
>>> such as when one locks oneself out of one's own house or car
>>> (or in my case, PBX room on client site after hours,
>>> blush...).
>>>
>>> Equally is the ability to do likewise for friends (have done
>>> that a handful of times).
>>>
>>> And from that, the generalization to our entire subculture, of
>>> the degree of security awareness we should have all the time.
>>>
>>> Picking locks is like being able to disassemble, clean, and
>>> reassemble a firearm: that skill does not make a law-abiding
>>> person start contemplating committing murders. But it might
>>> make one start to think more about personal safety on the
>>> streets at night.
>>>
>>> Lastly, I'll fess up to something. I think it's cool as hell
>>> when people who ordinarily hack around with software, start
>>> hacking around with _mechanical_ stuff. I'm bigtime in favor of
>>> people learning how to hack around with _mechanical_ stuff.
>>> "Physical layer" as new playground. To this list add your home
>>> appliances (the ones with motors in 'em) and rotary dial
>>> phones, but that's another topic for another day.
>>>
>>> TTYs-
>>>
>>> -G.
>>>
>>>
>>> =====
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-02-28-Thu 10:35 AM, Eddan Katz wrote:
>>>> Chicago Lock v. Fanberg is the case I was telling you about
>>>> last night, J.D. -
>>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17605115413487325945.
>>>>
>>>>
Author of lock-picking manuals gets sued by the manufacturer of
>>>> the locks. Chicago Lock loses on its trade secret
>>>> misappropriation claim. Here's an excerpt from the facts of
>>>> the case -
>>>>
>>>> Appellant Victor Fanberg, the son of locksmith Morris
>>>> Fanberg and a locksmith in his own right, has published a
>>>> number of locksmith manuals for conventional locks. Realizing
>>>> that no compilation had been made of tubular lock key codes,
>>>> in 1975 Fanberg advertised in a locksmith journal, Locksmith
>>>> Ledger, requesting that individual locksmiths transmit to him
>>>> serial number-key code correlations in their possession in
>>>> exchange for a copy of a complete compilation when finished.
>>>> A number of locksmiths complied, and in late 1976 Fanberg and
>>>> his father began to sell a two-volume publication of tubular
>>>> lock codes, including those of Ace locks, entitled
>>>> "A-Advanced Locksmith's Tubular Lock Codes." In 1976 and 1977
>>>> Fanberg advertised in the manuals in the Locksmith Ledger for
>>>> $49.95 and indicated that it would be supplemented as new
>>>> correlations became known. See Excerpt at 95-98. About 350
>>>> manuals had been sold at the time of trial. The District
>>>> Court found that Fanberg "had lost or
>> surrendered control over persons who could purchase the books,"
>> id. at 98, meaning that nonlocksmiths could acquire the code
>> manuals.
>>>>
>>>> The books contain correlations which would allow a person
>>>> equipped with a tubular key grinding machine to make
>>>> duplicate keys for any listed Ace lock if the serial number
>>>> of the lock was known. On some models, the serial numbers
>>>> appear on the exterior of the lock face. Thus, Fanberg's
>>>> manuals would make it considerably easier4*403 (and less
>>>> expensive) for a person to obtain (legitimately or
>>>> illegitimately) duplicate keys to Ace locks without going
>>>> through the Company's screening process. This is what caused
>>>> consternation to the Company and some of its customers. At no
>>>> time did Fanberg seek, or the Company grant, permission to
>>>> compile and sell the key codes. Nor did the individual
>>>> locksmiths seek authorization from the Company or their
>>>> customers before transmitting their key code data to
>>>> Fanberg.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/27/13 11:20 PM, J.D. Zamfirescu wrote:
>>>>> more:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.insidebayarea.com/breaking-news/ci_22683660/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-apologizes-promoting-lock-picking
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Matthew Senate
>>>>> <mattsenate at gmail.com <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> It's awesome, free press!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 PM, rusty lindgren
>>>>>> <rustylindgren at gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Oh dear gawd. This is possibly the most moronic piece
>>>>>>> of "journalism" I have ever seen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are they unaware of the fact that you can go to a
>>>>>>> lock-picking school(actually it teaches you way more),
>>>>>>> and that this is just a cheaper version of that? (see:
>>>>>>> http://www.lock411.com/training.html).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, virtually no crime in Oakland involves skilled
>>>>>>> lock-picking, because it's a waste of time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't worry though, you can train in deadly martial
>>>>>>> arts, go to the shooting range, and buy ninja swords
>>>>>>> just about anywhere in Oakland, but picking a
>>>>>>> Masterlock is "appalling".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rusty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Anca Mosoiu
>>>>>>> <anca at techliminal.com <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Heads up. Looks like some folks aren't too happy that
>>>>>>>> people are learning how to pick locks this weekend.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9010047
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
Here is Oakland Local's response:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://m.oaklandlocal.com/article/oaklands-mayor-quan-apologizes-mentioning-weekend-lockpicking-class-really
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
Anca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- -=-=-=- Anca Mosoiu | Tech Liminal
>>>>>>>> anca at techliminal.com <mailto:anca at techliminal.com> M:
>>>>>>>> (510) 220-6660 <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660>
>>>>>>>> http://techliminal.com | T: @techliminal | F:
>>>>>>>> facebook.com/techliminal
>>>>>>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rusty Lindgren
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
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>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:49:45 -0800 From: Shawn
>> Lesniak <moderkaka at gmail.com <mailto:moderkaka at gmail.com>> Cc:
>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org> Subject: Re:
>> [sudo-discuss] FUD around Lockpicking class Message-ID:
>> <512FB4D9.6070402 at gmail.com <mailto:512FB4D9.6070402 at gmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> On 2013-02-28 01:13, Anon195714 wrote:>
>>> Re. Shawn:
>>>
>>> In no way am I suggesting that we start "working with the city
>>> or law enforcement officers on reporting who shows up at events
>>> or assist them in doing so," any more than the radical Quakers
>>> did.
>>
>> I don't know anything about the radical Quakers and they are in
>> no way a litmus test for the right amount of cooperation with law
>> enforcement. You are in favor of undercover officers at sudoroom
>> events. I am uncomfortable with that in any amount.
>>
>>> What I _am_ advocating is to open the lines of communication
>>> and point out that if the city is truly concerned about badguys
>>> showing up, they can send someone along to hang out and observe
>>> for themselves. What they're going to see is a room full of
>>> geeks learning an oldschool mechanical skill. More likely they
>>> won't bother, in which case their objection can be dismissed as
>>> meaningless.
>>
>> The term city is ambiguous here. The mayor endorsed it at some
>> level, then some of her constituents were concerned. Some other
>> people signed up for the class. Oakland is a diverse city.
>>
>> The city government in cooperation with law enforcement is
>> deeply afraid of anarchists. What happens when they look into it
>> further and realize several known anarchists congregate at
>> sudoroom? Maybe you don't care because you're not an anarchist,
>> and I'm hesitant to air out my 'anarchist' credentials, but I've
>> been beaten by Oakland police for being a suspected anarchist.
>> I'm not comfortable with inviting anyone in for surveillance. In
>> addition, whether 'known gang members' are likely to show up or
>> not, the laws are no different for them than for us. If it were
>> my class, and someone told me to only teach white people or
>> people without tattoos or people who aren't wearing black shirts
>> or any other restrictions, I'd tell them to fuck off and if I
>> caught anyone surveilling them I'd kick them out. Safe space to
>> me means no LE in sudoroom, uniformed or undercover.
>>
>>> As for comparing "'known gang member'" to "the more privileged
>>> class": that's postmodern BS. The #1 killer of young black men
>>> in Oakland isn't police bullets but gang bullets. So where are
>>> the outraged protests in front of known gang enclaves, eh? This
>>> isn't an abstraction: a young black man I knew was killed in a
>>> drive-by. As for "privileged class," about 1/3 of SudoRoom
>>> members are unemployed, and many are borderline-homeless. A few
>>> more "privileges," such as full-time jobs that pay decent
>>> wages, would be a good thing.
>>
>> You don't have to kill someone to ruin their lives. Go out to
>> East Oakland and ask a few people what their experience with LE
>> is. Sit in a courtroom in Oakland for 2 hours and see what people
>> are in jail for. I've seen people spend 2 days in jail for riding
>> their bike on the sidewalk, which can lose you a job. I've had a
>> cop roll up on me aggressively while I was wearing a hood and
>> then immediately changed his demeanor when he saw I was white
>> and let me go. Life is different for PoC in Oakland. I've seen it
>> myself and I've spent the time talking to people who are
>> affected.
>>
>> This is why I fight to keep schools open, to improve access to
>> resources for everyone. You close a school, you open a jail. You
>> open a school, you close a jail.
>>
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>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:31:08 -0800 From: mark
>> burdett <mark at 510pen.org <mailto:mark at 510pen.org>> To: Anon195714
>> <anon195714 at sbcglobal.net <mailto:anon195714 at sbcglobal.net>> Cc:
>> sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>> Subject: Re:
>> [sudo-discuss] FUD around Lockpicking class Message-ID:
>> <CALd=3MLX5DcFU3ThT3dzmCyiQu9OyJSS=mSoB73kRO0dpEvdxw at mail.gmail.com
>> <mailto:mSoB73kRO0dpEvdxw at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type:
>> text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> No one is really inviting a detective, right? there are lots of
>> reasons not to. like, I assume many of us have a policy of only
>> talking to LE w/ our lawyers..
>>
>> The "fundamentals of armed robbery" workshop suggested in the
>> articles could be quite informative! "fundamentals of computer
>> fraud and abuse" could be interesting too, although according to
>> https://data.oaklandnet.com/Public-Safety/CrimeWatch-Maps-Past-90-Days/ym6k-rx7a
>>
>>
there
>> is quite a lot of robbery going on, hardly any "ACCESS
>> COMPUTER/ALTER/ETC DATA:DEVISE SCHEME/ETC DEFRAUD/ETC"
>>
>> --mark B.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Anon195714
>> <anon195714 at sbcglobal.net
>> <mailto:anon195714 at sbcglobal.net>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yo's-
>>>
>>> On the other hand, the Mayor could send along a plain-clothes
>>> detective to hang out and keep an eye open for known gang
>>> members etc. "Just say Honeypot!", and we're doing the city a
>>> favor.
>>>
>>> OK, so a few recent crime anecdotes:
>>>
>>> = A close friend's car window was smashed on the side street
>>> while we were up at SudoRoom. = Another close friend's bike was
>>> stolen out of the common area. = A neighbor of mine's bike was
>>> stolen out of their garage today. = The officer who took the
>>> stolen bike report (Berkeley PD) said that the standard MO
>>> these days is for the robber to knock at the door, and if no
>>> answer, kick the door in. If the resident is away it becomes a
>>> burglary. If the resident is home, it becomes a home-invasion
>>> robbery or worse. = As another close friend of mine once said,
>>> "doors are a convenience for people who are polite." A strong
>>> lock on a strong door with a weak window nearby, is evidence of
>>> nothing more or less than a homeowner without the ability to
>>> imagine how baddies think.
>>>
>>> I don't see any lock-picking going on in any of those. As a
>>> method of committing crimes, lock-picking is obsolete.
>>>
>>> And I do see an opportunity for some positive outreach to
>>> Mayor Quan's office, re. the opportunity for having a detective
>>> attend the event. This would be similar to how Quaker activist
>>> groups handled their plans for protests, by keeping the
>>> relevant LE agencies informed. When I lived in New England, I
>>> saw this first-hand, and it worked. Protests organized by those
>>> groups were successful, every time.
>>>
>>> Does anyone here have good relations with anyone in Oakland
>>> city gov, and want to volunteer to get the lines of
>>> communication open?
>>>
>>> -G.
>>>
>>>
>>> =====
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-02-27-Wed 11:26 PM, Tommy York wrote:
>>>
>>> "OAKLAND -- One skill that appears all too common in Oakland
>>> these days is the ability to pick a lock. Burglaries jumped
>>> more than 40 percent last year, and not all of them involved
>>> window smashes."
>>>
>>> This is a horrific excuse for journalism. Not all burglaries
>>> involved window smashes? Oh really? And in that case, how many
>>> involved skilled lock picking?
>>>
>>> Mencken would be angry.
>>>
>>> - tommy ----------------- Thomas Riley York (???) 510.926.0510
>>> <tel:510.926.0510> http://www.linkedin.com/in/tommyyork
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:20 PM, J.D. Zamfirescu
>>> <zamfire at gmail.com <mailto:zamfire at gmail.com>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> more:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.insidebayarea.com/breaking-news/ci_22683660/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-apologizes-promoting-lock-picking
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Matthew Senate
>>>> <mattsenate at gmail.com <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's awesome, free press!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 PM, rusty lindgren
>>>>> <rustylindgren at gmail.com <mailto:rustylindgren at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh dear gawd. This is possibly the most moronic piece of
>>>>>> "journalism" I have ever seen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are they unaware of the fact that you can go to a
>>>>>> lock-picking school(actually it teaches you way more),
>>>>>> and that this is just a cheaper version of that? (see:
>>>>>> http://www.lock411.com/training.html).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, virtually no crime in Oakland involves skilled
>>>>>> lock-picking, because it's a waste of time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't worry though, you can train in deadly martial arts,
>>>>>> go to the shooting range, and buy ninja swords just about
>>>>>> anywhere in Oakland, but picking a Masterlock is
>>>>>> "appalling".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Rusty
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Anca Mosoiu
>>>>>> <anca at techliminal.com
>>>>>> <mailto:anca at techliminal.com>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Heads up. Looks like some folks aren't too happy that
>>>>>>> people are learning how to pick locks this weekend.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9010047
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Here is Oakland Local's response:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://m.oaklandlocal.com/article/oaklands-mayor-quan-apologizes-mentioning-weekend-lockpicking-class-really
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Anca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- -=-=-=- Anca Mosoiu | Tech Liminal
>>>>>>> anca at techliminal.com <mailto:anca at techliminal.com> M:
>>>>>>> (510) 220-6660 <tel:%28510%29%20220-6660>
>>>>>>> <%28510%29%20220-6660> http://techliminal.com | T:
>>>>>>> @techliminal | F: facebook.com/techliminal
>>>>>>> <http://facebook.com/techliminal>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rusty Lindgren **
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing listsudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.orghttp
>>> <mailto:listsudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.orghttp>://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
<http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
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>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>> End of sudo-discuss Digest, Vol 4, Issue 208
>> ********************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
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> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
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