[sudo-discuss] [CCL] Re: The Omni is happening

[Craig Rouskey]

I can't tell you how excited I am that this is happening! (and am also
hella-excited about some BSL-2 space!)...

Yay amazing people! Y'all rock!


On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd at gmail.com>wrote:

> I think one of the storage spaces at the end of the Bocce court ([4] and
> [5] on my numbered floorplan) could be perfect for a BSL-2. Plenty for one
> or two benches plus a fridge/freezer and some other equipment. Most people
> doing BSL-2 work don't really need to be in the BSL-2 space for the entire
> time anyway. I've seen academic and commercial labs where all the BSL-2
> work was essentially relegated to a small windowless room as well.
>
> Building an extra floor is a huge hurdle, and would presumably require
> building permits etc.
>
> Patrik
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:03 PM, ahnon <ahnon at ahnon.org> wrote:
>
>> Re: space
>> We need to talk about this in our own meetings and then bring it to the
>> Omni meeting. Maybe we should have a collaborative meeting with SR to
>> discuss the project as well. I'm not convinced online is the best place for
>> this discussion.
>>
>> Matt - thanks for the perspective on hacker/biohacker shared spaces! Matt
>> Senate's original assessment (50% SR 50% CCL in the boce court) is what we
>> have been discussing at CCL meetings. We don't want to be in the basement
>> (possibly some small storage or reagent supply). Hacker Spa is definitely a
>> project I support .... hadn't heard about them being in the bocce area
>> though.
>>
>> Personally, I was thinking BSL1 on the floor with SR, relatively fluid
>> access .... although all the common space usages of SR that might be the
>> first images you think of, will be in the common space. There probably
>> won't be any dogs and likely fewer guitars (for better or worse). I was
>> thinking BSL2 as a second story platform in the bocce area that we would
>> need to build. The access would be easier to control and there would be
>> fewer airborne contaminants.
>>
>> CCL would do all of CCL's building and help with any agreed-upon common
>> area build projects.
>>
>> So - are we meeting together or separately or both? Next Omni meeting is
>> 4/24 so it should be before that.
>>
>> <3 The Omni Is Happening <3,
>> -Ahnon
>>
>>  -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] The Omni is happening - PLEASE REVIEW &
>> DISCUSS!
>> From: Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, April 15, 2014 1:51 pm
>> To: "Patrik D'haeseleer" <patrikd at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>,
>> "counterculturelabs at googlegroups.com"
>> <counterculturelabs at googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Patrik,
>>
>> Thanks for cross-posting and beginning this discussion between our
>> spaces.
>>
>> It's also possible for us not to have walls for some time, especially
>> given the size of the bocce ball court, construction scheduling of whatever
>> space, any number of reasons, etc. One pattern I know of is that (though
>> they are now moving into a large space) the biohackerspace La Paillasse
>> actually was previously a contiguous open-air area embedded inside
>> /tmp/lab/ as i've sketched in the attached images:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> edited with
>> http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/editor/svg-editor.html
>>
>> They were able to conduct some experiments and hack in the same space,
>> though of course this can be limiting for some of the reasons you point out
>> (e.g. dust). The same goes for the LA Biohackerspace that was inside of
>> Null Space http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Null_Space_Labs as well as the
>> biohacking contingent of ATX Hackerspace in Austin
>> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/ATX_Hackerspace
>>
>> Given this pattern (which isn't a rule of course), what are the rough
>> timeframe, cost estimate, and responsibility looking like for CCL? I mean,
>> does CCL intend to build these walls, or is CCL inclined to ask Sudo to
>> participate, chip-in, etc. Or is this something to be proposed as an Omni
>> Collective development as part of building build-out or otherwise?
>>
>> I think the most likely scenario is that we'll throw everything in there,
>> then start putting together a plan for real walls in a 6-month period, with
>> designs, etc.
>>
>> However, one immediate alternative is to isolate biohacking to the
>> basement (some of which is earmarked for CCL/sudo already), perhaps
>> construct a library, lounge, meeting room, or even soem sort of CCL/sudo
>> shared (event?) space in the bocce ball court, avoiding wall-building,
>> using what's already in the building, and avoiding potential contamination.
>> I'm open to other ideas, but just wanted to throw this out there:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> [Cross-posting from sudo room to CCL]
>>>
>>> Lots of good points from Matt. I'm probably a bit more optimistic about
>>> the Omni, but it's important to have some of these things nailed down.
>>>
>>> I just wanted to expand on some of the issues regarding sharing space
>>> with CCL. We haven't really talked through the logistics of any of this,
>>> but this is my personal opinion of what we'll likely need to do:
>>>
>>> Regardless of whether we move in together at the Omni or at 8th & Alice,
>>> CCL will almost certainly need to have all or most of its lab space walled
>>> off. We were kidding about how great it would be to put up plexiglass
>>> partitions, so people can watch the caged science-monkeys at work, but we
>>> do need to have access control over the lab space.
>>>
>>> We'll also need to avoid sharing airspace with anything that creates too
>>> much dust, since that's a big contamination issue for any experiments we
>>> do. So we may either need to put a ceiling over the lab space, ask sudoroom
>>> to keep any dust generating equipment (especially woodworking!) in a dust
>>> containing enclosure, or simply agree not to do that type of work in the
>>> same space with us.
>>>
>>> I'd imagine we would likely still have some small open social space as
>>> well though. And we may even have a small amount of accessible lab space to
>>> do any food-grade experimentation (kombucha, cheese making, distillation,
>>> you name it...).
>>>
>>> So yeah - talking about having collective use of the whole space sounds
>>> nice. But the reality is that CCL will likely need to wall itself off to
>>> some extent, because of the nature of what we do. Hopefully we can make
>>> those walls as transparent as possible ;-)
>>>
>>> Patrik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:23 AM, Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> notes in-line below:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I know not everyone will agree with this argument - I know maybe
>>>>> something better and more utopian may come by - but are we really going to
>>>>> wait forever for the perfect building on top of a bart station? It's not
>>>>> perfect, but I'm not down for waiting for utopia. I'm down for hacking one
>>>>> together, which is what this is.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is not just Utopia that may come by, there are other available,
>>>> viable spaces on the table in different locations. In most ways I see The
>>>> Omni as the Utopic option. For instance see mock-ups of 8th and Alice with
>>>> a slice of some of these collectives posited:
>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice it's actually a pretty
>>>> realistic fallback option to The Omni (say if the deal went sour for
>>>> whatever reason) at the very least. I don't see 8th and Alice as Utopic,
>>>> but it is actually closer to a bart station (2 blocks to Lake Merritt
>>>> station).
>>>>
>>>> More importantly, this isn't an all-or-nothing situation. The Omni
>>>> Collective should be prepared to exist some place other than The Omni if
>>>> need be, it's fine if The Omni is the priority and primary focus. When we
>>>> see a proposal to sign a lease at The Omni, we should have one or two naive
>>>> options alongside, if even just for our bearings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Shouldn't we be closer to BART / PT (@Phil) ?*
>>>>> It's true, the Omni is 8 blocks from MacArthur BART, so, 5 whole
>>>>> blocks longer than we currently walk.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the time cost of 5 extra blocks mean a 'fraction' of those who now
>>>>> come to Sudo will come to the Omni?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That's not the only way to see this issue. Will Sudoers come to The
>>>> Omni? Will they come when it's no longer on their way to/from work? Will
>>>> they come if it's an extra few miles bike ride? Will some of our current
>>>> paying members be less inclined to contribute regular dues if dropping in
>>>> means heading much further from their neighborhood? Will hackers from other
>>>> local spaces, long-distance visitors, guests attending events, and the
>>>> general public from throughout the bay area make the trip over to sudo room
>>>> if they have to consider taking an extra total ~24 minutes of travel time
>>>> (NB > OMNI http://goo.gl/maps/iBsBg vs NB > SR http://goo.gl/maps/WV4ks)?
>>>> The lesson is both hackerspace-movement-oriented and a local lesson from
>>>> Noisebridge--being close to 16th St station encourages lots of traffic,
>>>> which I think is more beneficial than the opposite. I don't think this
>>>> suggestion is overblown, I think we have to accept it, and accept that 5
>>>> blocks does matter, even if it may be worth it ultimately to overcome that
>>>> hurdle for other benefits.
>>>>
>>>> The reality here is that moving to The Omni, moving to any new space,
>>>> will change the patterns of attendance and usage of sudo room. Whether we
>>>> like it or not, for better or for worse. The idea of "forking" sudo room to
>>>> keep presences in multiple areas has even been discussed. I think this is a
>>>> more practical approach than assuming it will simply work out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> *Okay.. But can we all actually pay the freaking rent (@Matt)? *
>>>>> In short, yes. Unless Sudo backs out. In which case, no.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm more interested in the following question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Can we prove we can pay the rent, with concrete information (@Matt)?* Yes..
>>>>> but, I'm actually not sure how to do this on a public listserv? I can say
>>>>> the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> - We presently have a combination of donations and a long-term
>>>>> no-interest loan by people in our community that will cover first months'
>>>>> rent and deposit (move-in costs).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There have been lots of proposals and gestures on the table. Webs of
>>>> trust are great, but they aren't perfect. Indeed, it needs to be explicitly
>>>> laid out and available to all members of all Omni collectives in order for
>>>> genuine analysis to be feasible. The Delegates make a built-in
>>>> email/phone-tree btw.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is in addition to the month-to-month rent commitments made by the
>>>>> collectives (and their delegates) themselves. We knew the barrier to entry
>>>>> in the form of move-in costs would be a big burden on us. But you know,
>>>>> this is what we have been fundraising for, again, for months. This did not
>>>>> materialize overnight. It was the result of a lot of hard work.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course, appreciated work, that you yourself once said would be worth
>>>> it regardless of The Omni itself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Rental amounts have been discussed by member collectives and
>>>>> delegates for months in most cases, at every meeting. These amounts have
>>>>> fluctuated to reflect reality of what members can afford. Everyone knows
>>>>> what is at stake. This is not just a fairytale dream.. well heck, it is a
>>>>> dream, but a dream we have all worked hard to bring to the brink of
>>>>> reality. Does it involve a level of trust? Yes - of course. Do I have any
>>>>> doubts that we won't pull through? At this point? No.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's nice to hear these things, but ambiguity can be eliminated if the
>>>> numbers and plan are simply written down and handed out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Am I expected to dump suitcases full of cash onto the conference
>>>>> table Wednesday, or.. Anyone who wants more details on this please email me
>>>>> offlist or just ring me?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nothing is expected of you or any Omni Collective delegates other than
>>>> what you want to put in, and anything you are unwilling or unable to do
>>>> should be announced back to the sub-collectives.
>>>>
>>>> I do not like even the idea of participating in a loan, especially from
>>>> friends (despite benefits over sycophants like banks). I would personally
>>>> be inclined to compromise on taking one, but only knowing precise terms.
>>>> Instead, if we started collecting regular rent dues for April and May, we
>>>> would simply have the deposit down without the loans. Plus we would have
>>>> the commitment of member-collectives.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  *What are the terms of the lease (i.e. the full contract)?*
>>>>> Ok - the proposed terms of the lease are finally just now starting to
>>>>> be negotiated, in that we are finally starting to actually make
>>>>> counterproposals.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This isn't what I mean. Yes, some of the terms are up for negotiation,
>>>> but what about a contract with the rest of the landlord's terms for our
>>>> reference and to have time to get clarity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  - We can collectively afford our rent as is, at least for the first
>>>>> year. I will show you the spreadsheets.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the existing collectives actually are going to contribute at the
>>>> rate they've suggested and if they actually pay. Knowing collectives, let's
>>>> just be honest, a member group of The Omni Collective may simply back
>>>> out--sudo room included--it happens. I'd like to know what lurches are
>>>> possible to be left by everyone and whether those constitute risks that are
>>>> worth taking. On the other hand, recruiting alternative collectives may
>>>> become a bigger priority if we realize that say more than 1 of the Omni
>>>> Collective member groups won't be making rent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  - We will have the first+deposit covered by donations and
>>>>> interest-free personal loan.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we agree to this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sudo's part would be $2K/mo.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Patrik's comment above is crucial in terms of contextualizing this rate
>>>> and the rates for other member collectives. That amount is how much sudo
>>>> room gestures it can make as-is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  *Lease length (2 years, 3 years?) (@Matt):*
>>>>> - We can sign a 2 or longer year lease. Up to us. Less than 2 years
>>>>> would be a hard sell. More than 2 years is easier.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have the other collectives weight in on this? Can we get a better rate
>>>> for greater than 2 years? Does any collective have a reason why a 2-year
>>>> timeline is not feasible for them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  *Landlord in or out? (@Matt):*
>>>>> - Up to us entirely: If he can stay there for ~3 months while he
>>>>> moves, the rent will be a lot lower for those months. If we don't want him
>>>>> to stay, he'll vacate in 30 days, but then we dont get a break during those
>>>>> first ~three months.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any chance of making an ask to get it rent-free for a 3 month summer
>>>> move-out and simultaneous build-out? (basically we'd just be coming in to
>>>> their home for 3 months preparing as they moved, right?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  *What are the terms of space usage? (@Matt)*
>>>>>
>>>>> In the current envisioning, Sudo would have to itself:
>>>>> - Half the bocce ball court room (giant back area), shared with CCL in
>>>>> the other half
>>>>> - This area is handicapped accessible, with handicapped-accessible
>>>>> bathrooms, & street access.
>>>>> - This area has massive, 55ft(?) ceilings with ample space to make
>>>>> add'l rooms, lofts, balconies, etc
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is precisely what needs to be outlined for everyone to even
>>>> consider moving in. I'm very uneasy about vagueness here. One of sudo
>>>> room's minimum requirements is relevant
>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Spaces#Precise_Constraints
>>>>
>>>> "Security and privacy
>>>> e.g. not a hallway or shared access with other tenants we don't know."
>>>>
>>>> If sudo room is sharing the bocce ball court with CCL, we have to
>>>> either consider how we share space, or consider build-out to meet this
>>>> minimum requirement. Maybe we can be embedded like /tmp/lab/ and La
>>>> Paillasse, or maybe not. We need time to at least talk and decide before
>>>> agreeing to move. I don't think that's very extreme. It doesn't have to be
>>>> perfect, just a baseline.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> *Who moves where? (@Matt)*
>>>>>
>>>>> All groups: have use of shared space
>>>>>
>>>>> We need to go over the floor plan, but point being - we do have a
>>>>> space for everyone that people are good with
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't stress enough how much I disagree with this point. We can't
>>>> build consensus by saying it's so. It's not bike-shedding to know precisely
>>>> what you have access to in exchange for payment, and relative to your
>>>> partners. Patrik's message in this regard is a good first step, but this is
>>>> essential and unresolved, high priority IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Which areas are exclusive (private) or inclusive (common)? (@Matt):*
>>>>>
>>>>> Shared areas:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> - big ol cafe to hang out in
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the only space mentioned of concern, the rest make sense. The
>>>> cafe is actually private space, unless we have an agreement that it is
>>>> treated especially different since it should be treated as common space for
>>>> various reasons. Either way, it's important we know this going in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *What is the protocol for conflicts and concerns between (or across
>>>>> members of) Omni Oakland sub-collectives?*
>>>>> To some extent re: how the delegate structure works, see:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/The_Omni/2014-04-03#The_Omni_Oakland_Collective
>>>>>
>>>>> In terms of conflict resolution, that has come up several times and we
>>>>> are working on that now - we are looking at the terms Sudo uses that (from
>>>>> what I understand) were originally cribbed from Noisebridge. This is an
>>>>> area we need to work on - we have been mostly focused on the financials,
>>>>> apportioning space and accruing the will to come together and do this.
>>>>>
>>>>> We also have to work more on our articles of incorporation and
>>>>> association. We are working actively on that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know the details are under-developed, and they will only improve with
>>>> time as all things. However, does The Omni Collective think it can come to
>>>> resolution on this by June 1st or is this something that should be turned
>>>> into an ask for help from the sub-collective memberships?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Additionally, what rights and responsibilities do members of the
>>>>> public (or as I usually say for sudo, which I think applies here,
>>>>> "prospective members" of any of our collectives) have? (@Matt)*
>>>>>
>>>>> In broad terms - my view:
>>>>>
>>>>> For the entire space, members of the public have a responsibility to
>>>>> abide by the accepted rules of the space assented to by all the collectives
>>>>> within it, which will be akin to the safe space policy Sudo currently has
>>>>> in place @ 2141, and although we haven't voted on it yet, a conflict
>>>>> resolution policy in line with what Sudo already has.
>>>>>
>>>>> Each collective additionally maintains its own subset of rules for
>>>>> itself and members of the public in its own localized dedicated area within
>>>>> the building, that are not in conflict with rules and values for the whole
>>>>> space.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its conceivable that the public may not be allowed free reign over
>>>>> 100% of the space and its materials all the time. For example, I can
>>>>> imagine if there are dance rehearsals, Live Space may not always want that
>>>>> public. If there is film development going on in a darkroom, its possible
>>>>> they may not want the door open randomly. If TIL's letterpress machine is
>>>>> in the basement, the public may need to be trained on how to use it before
>>>>> using it. The same way that not everyone has access to root on Sudo's
>>>>> Mediawiki off the bat - there are conditions. CCL may have machines and
>>>>> rooms that not everyone in the public is able to just freely use unless
>>>>> they have the requisite knowledge. Stuff like that. Make sense..?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this needs to be more direct, e.g.:
>>>>
>>>> There are private spaces (defined by map) that only the members of the
>>>> respective collectives are entitled to access, under the terms relevant for
>>>> their community. For common spaces, either a process exists for reserving
>>>> and using the space as private space (up to the reservation's terms), or
>>>> all members of the Omni Collective have access. As for "prospective
>>>> members" or the general public, essentially at this point there is no
>>>> entitlement to common space nor to any private space. Perhaps there are
>>>> spaces designation for building maintenance / storage needs, access based
>>>> on discretion and need.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  *For existing member collectives can we start collecting rent
>>>>> contributions immediately (to be paid forward to rent after any agreed-upon
>>>>> contract is signed)? (@Matt)*
>>>>>
>>>>  This has been discussed obviously. We will start this forthwith.
>>>>> Remember we have donations and a loan that forms the basis of the barriers
>>>>> to entry. We just received paperwork of our CA NP status, so we can open a
>>>>> bank account just for the collective. Partly we're also waiting on Land
>>>>> Trust fiscal sponsorship which will make things easier on donors. But the
>>>>> money is there, with or without that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd much rather see an ask to put in a membership deposit by June 1
>>>> than move-in given the wild hairs. Unless there's a reason to believe these
>>>> things will come in line to allow for a consensus process to conclude
>>>> before May 1.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------
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>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
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