[sudo-discuss] [CCL] Re: SEM microscope
Jake
jake at spaz.org
Thu Dec 25 20:33:03 PST 2014
I think the mention of the Tesla coil was a joke. Nobody is going to run
the tesla coil in sudoroom/CCL with or without an SEM nearby.
the noisebridge SEM is the same one that Miloh has now. Noisebridge
tossed it out unceremoniously and Miloh pulled up quick to retrieve it.
its true that its an early, low-resolution machine, and ornary, and i dont
recommend we get it. if we get an SEM it will be a lot of work and we
should get a nice one, not an early ISI with battle damage and too much
"personality" like the noisebridge one.
I think the Jeol in Santa Barbara is a good opportunity. CindyB points
out that vibration will be our enemy, but I am confident that we can build
a vibration isolator for the business chamber, and we can take our
pictures in between BART trains :)
the internet says the Jeol JSM 6400 can see 300,000x magnification.
how interested are we in getting the thing from santa barbara? do we know
anyone down there (basically L.A.) who can look at it and help us decide
to pool funds to rent a U-haul?
-jake
On Thu, 25 Dec 2014, Benjamin Rupert wrote:
> The SEM that I remember at Noisebeidge would be much more forgiving overall, but it only went to something
> like 20,000x or 40,000x magnification. Much lower magnification than the Jeol being discussed here. That
> magnification can be fine for many things (I would often only go to 40,000x or 60,000x looking at battery
> electrode materials at my last job, even though the instrument I was using would go to 1,000,000x). I don't
> think any instrument could be used next to a running tesla coil though. I think finding a low magnification
> instrument like that probably wouldn't be too hard. I actually had realized that the LN2 was only needed for
> the EDS detector. The instruments I've used in the past have always had filling the LN2 as part of the
> standard operating procedure and I guess I never questioned what it was used for.
>
> Ben
>
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd at gmail.com> wrote:
> So you're saying we should not run the SEM while the giant Tesla coil right next to it is running,
> right? :-D
> I know there are at least two other hacker EM's in the Bay Area - Ithink Miloh has one, and there is/was
> a second at Noisebridge that may or may not be in storage somewhere at the moment. Could someone who
> knows more about these other machines post their specs (and potential availability)?
>
> Are there particular types of EM's that are more forgiving in terms of environmental conditions and user
> friendliness? How does this Jeol machine compare to the others in this regard?
>
> Patrik
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 8:55 AM, CindyB <notcindybnot at gmail.com> wrote:
> Environmental vibration and EMI will limit the ability of whatever scanning electron,
> confocal or scanning tunneling system you put in the building. Look for the environmental
> vibration specs of the equipment you want to consider. For example:
> http://fbodaily.com/archive/2004/09-September/02-Sep-2004/FBO-00661968.htm It's a bit of an
> ugly format but a bit down the page is a list of frequency and magnitude limits under which
> the JEOL 6400 system operates to spec and defines proper vibration isolation. The high
> magnification systems may not be able to have sufficient vibration isolation without a very
> expensive facilities upgrade depending on the floor underpinnings. Trains, motor vehicles on
> nearby roads and possibly even people walking in the building can transmit vibration that
> limits the ultimate resolution.
>
> Likewise, clean power is essential. Power line conditioning that removes unspec'd
> frequencies is required or you will never get the system stable enough to hold focus to
> image or analyze. At least in the past, JEOL was not that good at making their system fit
> into less than stellar laboratory conditions. Likewise, you will want to be careful about
> through-the-air electromagnetic interference from things like power lines, etc. The 60Hz
> frequency from power lines throws a magnetic field through the air that will generate a beat
> pattern in the images. This will limit the minimum accelerating voltage you can use without
> interference.
>
> Next to the Tesla coil? A Tesla coil creates a magnetic field which will be transmitted
> through the air to interfere with the electron beam of the SEM. Other things that throw off
> magnetic fields like transformers, anything that spins or vibrates deliberately like
> vortexer, centrifuge, orbiters, etc. will throw off magnetic fields, too.
>
> Environmental and power considerations are going to make or break the ability of CCL to
> effectively use the JEOL SEM in the lab.
>
> I suppose you might wonder why I would know about SEMs and environmental considerations. One
> of the areas I worked in at Intel was the replacement of optical critical dimension
> measurement with SEM critical dimension measurement inside a semiconductor manufacturing
> facility. We implemented JEOL, Nanometrics and ultimately Hitachi SEM systems. JEOL and
> Nanometrics were very sensitive to the environment we placed the systems. Hitachi much less
> so.
>
> If you can come across a Hitachi SEM you _might_ be able to make it work in the CCL
> environment. JEOL SEMs can be very good systems placed in a good clean, vibration isolated
> location. It will be very difficult (maybe impossible) to get sufficiently useful images or
> beam control for analytical reasons without such conditions.
>
> Cindy
>
> On Monday, December 22, 2014 7:05:22 PM UTC-8, patrikd wrote:
> Awesome! Forwarding to CCL as well...
> Patrik
>
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 6:15 PM, Jake <ja... at spaz.org> wrote:
> We have been offered a scanning electron microscope. I have accepted and marc
> and I will go get it if it's still available.
>
> I don't know if it has a spectral detector for EDS, but I got one at
> Urban Ore yesterday for $25, so we can add that functionality if it doesn't
> already have it.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-dispersive_X-ray_spectroscopy
>
> this picture was taken with a SEM like the one we're getting:
>
> http://microscopy.tamu.edu/picture-of-the-month/PoM_708.jpg/image_large
>
> here is what the machine probably looks like, based on a google search of Jeol
> JSM 6400
>
> https://engineering.purdue.edu/MSE/Research/Facilities/XRayFacility/Microstructural/Microstructural/6400_SEM.
> jpg
>
> we can put it on the border / neutral zone between sudoroom and CCL like the
> CSAM and tesla coil.
>
> -jake
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> So, yeah, I can potentially grab a Jeol JSM 6400. You should look at pics. It is
> fairly large.
>
> Right now it is in Santa Barbara. I don't have a good plan for moving it, or
> putting it somewhere (hopefully where
> people can use it). The company that bought it was told it works when they
> bought it, but they never tested it. I
> should note that I am talking to a few people and I'm hoping one of them works
> out.
>
> I would need to get it Jan 19-20.
>
> Does this still interest you?
>
>
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