if there is no power conferred by the delegates approving that part of their
proposal, then I don't see why it's necessary for the delegates to pass the
proposal.  They already have the ability to assert that someone should pay
fines in the way you're suggesting.

-jake

> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 10:34 PM Cere Misc <cere.misc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But would it work tho?  Presumably, some of you know who this kind of
>> scenario might apply to, I currently have no clue.  If such a system were
>> on place would it effectively work as a deterrent to prevent future
>> problems?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 5:08 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
>> sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org> wrote:
>>
>>> It's so bizarre to me that you're just speaking about messes like
>>> they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
>>> disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
>>> way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
>>> cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
>>> don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
>>> racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
>>> burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
>>> turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
>>> restore it.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake@spaz.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yar, since when can action not be taken?  If someone makes a proposal
>>> at the
>>>> delegates meeting to do something about a mess, for example a
>>> collective that
>>>> has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind, and we have to pay for
>>> services
>>>> to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass the proposal and make it
>>> happen.
>>>>
>>>> A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific
>>> mess is
>>>> a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt with by our
>>> community, and we
>>>> can't evade that responsibility by deputizing an individual or group to
>>> levy
>>>> fines with no oversight.  That's what i'm objecting to.  Everything
>>> else has
>>>> already been passed, and we haven't even tried addressing these problems
>>>> without the weaponization of this new committee.
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to
>>> levy
>>>> fines, we're still focusing on approving that part of the proposal as
>>> if it's a
>>>> highly important and desirable dynamic that we want to add to our
>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> -jakonlye
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
>>>>> They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
>>>>> kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
>>>>> if that doesn't work.
>>>>>
>>>>> The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
>>>>> action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
>>>>> proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
>>>>> <sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and
>>> diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and
>>> move on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up
>>> requests, then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Kent
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kent Leech Illustration
>>>>>> http://www.kentleech.com
>>>>>> kent@kentleech.com
>>>>>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>>>>>> To: <sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
>>> Committee proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sudoroom,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a
>>> couple of weeks
>>>>>> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
>>> failed to
>>>>>> forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss
>>> our position
>>>>>> on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our
>>> delegate (which
>>>>>> is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines
>>> against
>>>>>> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried
>>> a process
>>>>>> of simple communication between a cleaning collective and
>>> representatives of
>>>>>> collectives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
>>> proposal,
>>>>>> but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new
>>> Committee the
>>>>>> ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
>>> determined
>>>>>> were guilty of being messy.  The proposal was partially passed as
>>> seen here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>>>>>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until
>>> after our
>>>>>>       october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus
>>> decision on
>>>>>>       october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
>>>>>> jake: is ok with that
>>>>>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
>>> CLP/Billy
>>>>>> MOP/Jacqi)
>>>>>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>>>>>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed
>>> Committee with
>>>>>> the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and
>>> issue
>>>>>> "fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their
>>> standard,
>>>>>> and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this
>>> provision
>>>>>> even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's
>>> objections.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting
>>> on OCTOBER
>>>>>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our
>>> delegate to
>>>>>> represent us at that meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee
>>> (same link
>>>>>> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's
>>> slated for
>>>>>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -jake
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>>>>>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle@protonmail.com>
>>>>>> To: consensus <consensus@lists.omnicommons.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee
>>> proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal
>>> formulated by the
>>>>>> Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and
>>> instructions
>>>>>> for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit
>>> the content
>>>>>> directly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
>>>>>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
>>> including
>>>>>> a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared
>>> spaces and
>>>>>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated
>>> participant in that
>>>>>> committee, please join us on Slack.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds
>>> to clean
>>>>>> the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must
>>> be
>>>>>> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back
>>> with any
>>>>>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next
>>> delegate's
>>>>>> meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Billy
>>>>>> Community Liberation Programs
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> More options at
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>
>