But would it work tho?  Presumably, some of you know who this kind of scenario might apply to, I currently have no clue.  If such a system were on place would it effectively work as a deterrent to prevent future problems?  

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 5:08 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org> wrote:

It's so bizarre to me that you're just speaking about messes like
they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
restore it.

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake@spaz.org> wrote:
>
> Yar, since when can action not be taken?  If someone makes a proposal at the
> delegates meeting to do something about a mess, for example a collective that
> has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind, and we have to pay for services
> to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass the proposal and make it happen.
>
> A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific mess is
> a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt with by our community, and we
> can't evade that responsibility by deputizing an individual or group to levy
> fines with no oversight.  That's what i'm objecting to.  Everything else has
> already been passed, and we haven't even tried addressing these problems
> without the weaponization of this new committee.
>
> I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to levy
> fines, we're still focusing on approving that part of the proposal as if it's a
> highly important and desirable dynamic that we want to add to our community.
>
> -jakonlye
>
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
>
> > Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
> > They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
> > kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
> > if that doesn't work.
> >
> > The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
> > action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
> > proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
> > <sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org> wrote:
> >> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move on.
> >>
> >> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests, then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
> >>
> >> -Kent
> >> -----
> >>
> >> Kent Leech Illustration
> >> http://www.kentleech.com
> >> kent@kentleech.com
> >> +1 (510) 504-0634
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org>
> >> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
> >> To: <sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org>
> >> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
> >>
> >> Hi Sudoroom,
> >>
> >> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
> >>
> >> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of weeks
> >> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
> >>
> >> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
> >> forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our position
> >> on it.
> >>
> >> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate (which
> >> is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
> >> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a process
> >> of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
> >> collectives.
> >>
> >> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the proposal,
> >> but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
> >> ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they determined
> >> were guilty of being messy.  The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
> >>
> >> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
> >> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after our
> >>       october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision on
> >>       october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
> >> jake: is ok with that
> >> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
> >> MOP/Jacqi)
> >> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
> >> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
> >>
> >> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
> >> the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
> >> "fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their standard,
> >> and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
> >> even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's objections.
> >>
> >> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on OCTOBER
> >> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
> >> represent us at that meeting.
> >>
> >> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same link
> >> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
> >> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
> >>
> >> -jake
> >>
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
> >> From: deskhandle <deskhandle@protonmail.com>
> >> To: consensus <consensus@lists.omnicommons.org>
> >> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
> >>
> >> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
> >>
> >> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by the
> >> Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
> >> for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the content
> >> directly.
> >>
> >> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
> >> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, including
> >> a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces and
> >> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in that
> >> committee, please join us on Slack.
> >>
> >> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to clean
> >> the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
> >> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
> >> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next delegate's
> >> meeting.
> >>
> >> Billy
> >> Community Liberation Programs
> >> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave@sudoroom.org More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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