Occupy new civilization

Post

Hello OWS! I don't want to waste your time so I'll be brief. I think you should start a new civilization.

If you can raise $7m for a rolling jubilee it should be easy to raise money for a new society. I read this fictional story called "Manna" where someone did this by getting everyone to pay $1k into a fund which was used to buy land, minerals, water, etc everything they would need. It had something like a million people sign up so they had a $billion to start out. After it was set up they went and rescued all the people [from capitalism] who paid into it and took them to this new society. Think about it...

Instead of funding a private militia to protect activists... or paying off fictional debt... or whatever flavour of the month political protest... just go whole hog. I have people sending me emails every day asking to join something like this. I would join something like this. It doesn't even have to be US based, you can get land and resources anywhere.

What do you say?

-JS

   This wild proposal for crowdfunding a new society just landed in our inbox. What do you think? http://t.co/y4I20zDuym #OWS
   — Occupy Wall Street (@OccupyWallSt) February 13, 2014

62 Comments

Comments

I am so- copy-pasting this entire thread before it gets hijacked by haters.

Maybe it could be based on righteous equality... as in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Perhaps people can represent themselves or appoint someone else to represent them, they'd have a choice. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 6 points by Renneye (3127) 2 weeks ago

"based on righteous equality... as in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."

I like this very much. These are the kind of humane thoughts and ideas we need in a new society, and to use our own version of the articles of the UN's declaration would be a beautiful foundation.

I would only say though, that some adjustments would need to be adapted to the sometimes vague articles of the UN's version. And our version would have 'teeth' behind it. 'Cause for all the wording in that document, the UN has done a piss poor job of making sure the world's people don't suffer. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 0 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

What attracts you to this idea? If find it extremely boring. Here was my reply:

http://occupywallst.org/article/wild-proposal-raise-1billion/#comment-1023105

You realize your questions above - Would there be representatives? Would it be governed by the people? etc.... - Are questions we have already tried to answer for OWS since the beginning. The GAs were an attempt at creating a new type of democracy. Nothing is new here. Just saying we need to create a new country doesn't answer all the hard questions we had before. It's a smokescreen. If we had the answer to how a great country should be run, we would either be trying to achieve it right now, or another group would have used it by now. We need to focus on what is important. How can we create a better world? What can we do to put pressure on capitalists that are rapping our country and the world. Creating a new commune won't change a thing. We need to fix the real problems in the real world. We need to stop Global Warming, find ways to stop the carnage of the planet, help the poor around us, stop corruption in politics, etc... ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 5 points by Renneye (3127) 2 weeks ago

You're completely and utterly wrong. But, your comment does provide good context from which to work. Which, I'm sure, is the purpose of your comment.

I'm not familiar with Larry, or if he provided any details about the society he thought up. It isn't important really. We can use the initial idea and create our own society. The idea provides a starting point.

You've assumed a lot. What makes you think it would be a commune? What makes you think we would be living in the woods? Why would we isolate ourselves? That would be silly. Why would we set ourselves up for failure and attack that way?

It seems to me, that OWS is the perfect place to be discussing what a new 'representative free' society would look like and how it would function. If not brainstorm, research, organize and actualize HERE at occupy where there is the biggest possible populace to influence and inspire...then where??

Lets not be under any illusions. Who truly knows what OWS really is, but, for all the attention it gets and awareness it spreads...

OWS IS the best place, and this is the best thread to plan such a society.

Too bad, if you're bored. This is what many people want. To be rid of representative government. To govern ourselves. This is exciting to me, and many others. To build a society based on human dignity and a social contract that embraces all of humanity, actualized by empathy, and yes...love.

No 'one' person will have all the ideas. There will be many creative people who can contribute their ideas and expertise. We just have to start it. It will grow. And once it comes to fruition, it will likely grow fast, given the fairness by which people will be treated.

There have been many individual ideas already that can be congregated here to help achieve such a society. Perhaps there could be a rule that all the businesses within such a society should be co-operatives. Not sure if that's the best way to go, but it's a possibility. And it doesn't matter that these ideas have been talked about before. Just because an idea didn't get off the ground the first time doesn't mean it wasn't a good idea. Ideas, inventions, innovations often have to go through several rounds before it is put where it's best suited.

We have to start somewhere. The world is so entrenched in the status quo, that it will be impossible to fight back within the establishment. We will not be able to 'demand' anything from it, or them. We simply have to ignore the existing establishment, political parties, etc., and create our own along side it.

All these things you say that need to be done in our world can be ensured within a new society just as it can in the rest of the world. Perhaps even better. Why would you think that if we started a new civilization, that we would forsake the rest of the world? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by Herberius (4) from Santa Anita, JAL 2 weeks ago

Great replay Renneye, actually I believe that building this new society would be the only effective way to solve the issues that muffinsanddonuts is pointing out. Permanent change comes within ourselves and effective leadership is attained by setting the example... building this society will show case how a truly intelligent society looks like and this would be the best way to awaken and inspire the "numb society" to replicate the model elsewhere and then it would be a matter of time to do a lasting and effective change... have you heard about the Venus Project? that project kinda aligns with this one. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 2 points by gnomunny (5545) from St Louis, MO 2 weeks ago

Good comment. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 3 points by Renneye (3127) 2 weeks ago

Why, thank you, kind sir. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by gnomunny (5545) from St Louis, MO 2 weeks ago

You're, . . . welcome. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 weeks ago

a parallel perception frame ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 0 points by WhyteHorse (11) 2 weeks ago

Holding a GA won't change anything either. Nor will occupying a park, protesting, signing petitions, marching, etc. We tried it your way for the last 2 years and here we are back to square one... still have student loans, still have no jobs, still the same people in power, still getting social programs to the poor cut, still building Keystone XL, etc. Nobody is going to stop driving their cars so you can already anticipate global warming. Nobody is going to stop shopping at Walmart, voting dem/repub, watching football and Fox news, etc. It sounds like you're the one living a fantasy if you think you can stop corruption, poverty, etc. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 weeks ago

Everybody knows - Leonard Cohen ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed]

[Removed] [-] 0 points by ZenDog (20333) from South Burlington, VT 2 weeks ago

It might be ok - but only so long as no one from the SETI committee starts insisting that They are out to get us ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 4 points by Renneye (3127) 2 weeks ago

Hmmm...nice, but I thought your Wernher von Braun comment was much more interesting. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by NineInchBride (6) 2 weeks ago

I thought Vermont already ~was~ the new civilization...

-)

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by ZenDog (20333) from South Burlington, VT 2 weeks ago

hey!hey! shhhhh!

.

on a side note, Vermont has already won two medals at the Olympics.

One silver

one bronze ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 6 points by Renneye (3127) 6 days ago

I'm cross-linking 'gsw's' Forum Post to this 'OccupyWallSt' article on starting a new civilization, for further sharing of information.

"Ideas and actions made toward a new civilization/society should Absolutely be a part of OWS, and should be parallel in importance to protesting and exposing the ruling elites' criminal activities. There's no reason why we can't do both at the same time.

This is a great organization that you have posted here. The more organizations like these with ideas, the better. We can all learn from each other and eventually democratically vote for the best ideas."

Thanks kindly 'gsw'!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/never-put-all-your-eggs-in-one-basket/

http://www.initiativesamendment.org/aboutus.htm

http://www.initiativesamendment.org/summary_paper.pdf ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 4 points by ClearView (74) 2 weeks ago

Money may buy you some things, but i assure you, it will not buy you a working alternative to our current system that is driven by money-without-principle. 1)Identify fundamental principles 2)Act according to those principles (which include civil disobedience) 3)Recognize that any representation of wealth, is wealth based upon common values and principles 4)To talk about creating a new society, the first step is to find and strengthen that which connects us on a deeper level. OWS continues to be very relevant in my world in that systemic problems are identified, and some action to expose them, interrupt them, and open dialogue and actions for healthy sustainable living together on this earth. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 3 points by CEOP (3) from Durham, NC 1 day ago

We had a similar, albeit much smaller, idea in Durham, NC. We are not looking to fund a whole new society, just trying to build an oasis of opportunity for some of the most marginalized unemployed (as a start for creating a more sustainable economic micro-system). The troops are not coming for these people, it's regular folks or nobody. The link for the crowdfunding page is here: http://igg.me/at/ceop/x/6269963

Hesitate to post this here, but like-minded people are like-minded. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by Durvasa (5) from Davie, FL 1 day ago

I say I could go along with it. But we're looking for a global solution, not increased sectarianism. I 100% agree with you though, the whole system needs to be scratched and redone. Starting i think with religion, currency and politics. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by occupycampbellco (32) from Newport, KY 1 day ago

I said a long time ago that there should be an Occupy version of the Free State Project - maybe just limited to one town in each metropolitan area. But everyone ignored my suggestion. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by NineInchBride (6) 2 weeks ago

"If it's crowdfunded it COULD be all of us and go beyond $1billion. It's easy to dismiss this idea as escapism. People dismiss earth-ships as "piles of rubble", medical marijuana as "for people who just want to get high", and anybody who wants to have a better life as 'seeking to escape'." ~WhyteHorse

It would easily and inevitably be dismissed as escapism if it were just a few, and not at least 'intended' for #AllOfUs. That's not to say I wouldn't be game for a well planned experiment that showed every practical detail of success. That's the only way you could crowdfund it though. In fact you'd likely need to crowdfund every stage, the planning and dissemination stage likely being the most difficult and rife with disagreements.

Where I'm afraid this breaks down is dependencies on neighbouring countries and the larger world. Even earth-ships have dependencies. Do we have high-speed internet in Shangri La? When it's time to replace the solar panels or wind turbines, how do we pay for that? Do we have a currency? Is it convertible? The Bolshevik and Cuban revolutions thought they could live apart sustainably, didn't they? Neither became a magnet or example to be envied. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Marx himself argue no national people's experiment could succeed in isolation, hence the call for world revolution and the internationale? Didn't Lenin deem a revolution in Germany, at the very least, the sine qua non for Bolshevik success? History has borne this out dramatically in any event. Your neighbors can destroy your experiment at will if some or all of them so choose, simply by choking off your trade or attacking your currency or compelling you to an arms race.

"It doesn't have to be isolated. The US won't have any soldiers if enough people quit their crappy military jobs to go live in a real civilization." ~WhyteHorse

The interdependencies and what if's are endless. In the best case scenario, where you have an enviable success and people can't wait to quit their awful jobs and their horrible culture to join in our good work and green culture, would be painting a bullseye on the utopian state. Uncle Sam is busy in the world undermining and destroying states and cultures for far less threat, or none at all, just to open a market, and I dare say that dirty business would be taken care of long before a critical mass of people quit the military for paradise. On the other hand... we do indeed seem to me to be ready for a 'fork in the road.'

See more below in response to your intriguing posts ;-)

"I couldn't disagree more. To call this a commune is really insulting. Every commune I've seen, including Auroville, began with a handful of people. A crowdfunded civilization is open to all. If 99% of people decide to join there would only be 1% left to rule themselves (and clean their toilets, hehe). So it's nothing at all like a retreat into the woods... it's more like exiting a casino and taking all the players home for a 100% payout game." I love the way your mind works... ;-) "This idea is interesting to me because it works. The Zeitgeist movement has done extensive analyses showing just that. The US began this way as well. It's no big secret or novel idea. It just works and there comes a logical point in human history where it makes more sense for a society to fork from the old and begin anew." ~WhyteHorse

Thank you! I fully appreciate what you are saying about the Zeitgeist Movement, which formed a good part of our research for the Nine Inch Bride series. And I especially thank you for the link to Manna (http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm), which I have just read for the first time in its entirety. The similarities to our work are many, some details are keenly striking, like the see-through walls, and in general both that work and ours speak to the meaning of small 'z' zeitgeist, that is, the spirit of the times, which we believe fully accounts for such simultaneity in vision. Sa, our heroine, likewise sees a future where jobs are automated and work is a highly incentivized option within an unconditional income scheme. Here are a couple of quotes from book 1:

"Capitalism, I think, could be voted out of existence for the price of one resource war, a few hundred billion at the going rate, a notion seemingly beyond the Bigs’ collective imagination. With a well-researched plan, its basic structures could be dismantled and reformed within a generation."

And

"There comes a time when the intelligence of a people outstrips its forms and demands fundamental change as a simple point of reason."

We like to think 'great minds' think alike, and include ~ Renneye~ and others in this discussion. ;-) More than such similarities though, so much of what OWS is struggling with right here in this post as well as in Justine's fireworks on Twitter is dealt with inside Nine Inch Bride. So much has come forward thanks to Justine & Co.'s cage rattling, we were compelled to write a blog post relating that to the coincidence of our new title for book 1, namely An Epiphany On Wall Street. You can find that blog post here: http://www.nineinchbride.com/author-blog-commentary/entry/about-title-epiphany-on-wall-street.html

Since you're allowing links, please indulge me and learn more about my work at them, it is all marvelously on topic in a radical way. You can find slews of directly relevant quotes from the books on Twitter under the hash tags #9ib and #9ib2, for books one and two in the series, as well as info under tags #NineInchBride, #IStoopToFiction and #ArtLeads. Our Twitter page is https://twitter.com/NineInchBride There are lengthy excerpts from both books at http://www.nineinchbride.com/excerpts-from-novel-nine-inch-bride.html as well as under the Blog link.

"If it isn't obvious that "We are unable to change society with OWS" by now, then you need to re-evaluate the facts." ~WhyteHorse

Ken in conversation with the heroine, taken from Book Two, A Stone of Conscience:

"Sean went to the protests when it started to look like the media was manufacturing consent with phony evidence and pointing the finger at Teheran. We had arguments all the time. I’d tell him you can’t expect all these protests will effect a change when the police have you surrounded, cameras are on you, and drones are spraying tag agents you can’t wash off, enabling them to identify you with public scans and continue to arrest you for weeks afterward. The threat of ‘fucking you over for life’ if you got booked on some inflated charge of civil disobedience was quite explicit to begin with, and who knows how many ways they have to do it to you."

"The mind of power is like a king’s walled castle," she answered with a sweeping gesture. "Protest at the gate is good moral affirmation for its participants and good employment for the guards but poor in results over all, unless the numbers in protest are too great to be killed and can withstand long enough to starve out a king."

"Okay, so nothing’s changed."

[end quote from the book]

"The stuff you're doing is actually propping up the system you oppose. All the charity work you do lowers the cost to those at the top. Instead of the 1% paying taxes to feed the poor, they don't pay any taxes and OWS picks up the tab." ~WhyteHorse

Nice. I agree. I'd just qualify that the "intent" of these actions went well beyond the feeding and support, and did have powerful messages about who and what OWS was/is within our sick culture, did produce a wildfire of positive reaction that protest actions have not, and had a shaming effect on "the 1%," forcing them to take action and showing up the Simon Legree intrinsic to capitalist culture in a way that is unmistakeable to ordinary people, both those affected and those reading about it.

There's a great future for OWS in StrikeDebt and OccupySandy. I also like the OccupyMoney effort in banking. The premise we have taken for our heroine is a kind of funding 'mother ship' for pilot group actions, of which OWS would be one such. While crowdfunding is certainly an option, our idea was to do it via the 'property casino' of Wall Street and reliable business mechanisms, essentially the notion of anti-capitalism capitalism, turning the instruments of oppression into instruments funding their own demise.

We think it is not worth arguing what money can or cannot buy by way of revolution, since in all history "Revolution has never been properly capitalized," as our heroine says, and I would advance the notion that its failures and the fears it engenders are largely due to lack of funding, research and planning in the lead up and for the aftermath.

The fact is, starting a new 'exemplary' society with a few million paying subscribers begs for the question, what is actually needed for a revolution within America? There is compelling evidence that only 3-3.5% of a population need participate actively to bring about capitalism's downfall. See this research on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w&feature=youtu.be For this much, OWS seems quite viable.

We'll be glad to forward free eBook copies of works one and two to anyone constructively contributing to this discussion, or you can request a 'for cost' copy of the book 1 paperback, either way via the web site contact page. We'd love to hear from you on our blog comments too.

_sympatico ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by bullfrogma (342) 2 weeks ago

Maybe new civilization is too big of a word. Picture a live where you work model, in any way shape or form, full of people dedicating their time to making progress. It doesn't have to be huge, and it doesn't have to be in one place.

When I first heard of occupy they were living on the street. How hard would it be to do something like the rolling jubilee just to make an intentional community sustainable enough to support people while they stay focused.

Like a people funded workforce, stretched further by sustainable practices. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by NineInchBride (6) 2 weeks ago

where in the world are you?

yes, yes, yes! ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by bullfrogma (342) 2 weeks ago

I agree. But if the movement is really being led by espionage then things that should happen aren't going to. Not unless we can escalate good ideas enough to flow into a wide range. I'm on the west coast, but I've been gang-stalked for years now, ever since putting up my website. I have to keep some distance. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by AlainaDeguire (2) from WESTLAKE, OR 2 weeks ago

Appealing. Yet, in my mind premature. I am sure putting us all in one place would be a small slice of heaven for the capitalist regime. I can hear them lock and load as I type this. We have many battles ahead to reach the point nationally, globally, where we can be so unified, so strong that, try as they might, they won't be able to turn the tide. Stay strong comrades. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by NineInchBride (6) 2 weeks ago

All Of Us or none, but you're finally on the right track! Why stop with $1 billion? Why stop with escapism for a few?

~Capitalism, I think, could be voted out of existence for the price of one resource war, a few hundred billion at the going rate, a notion seemingly beyond the Bigs’ collective imagination.~ Sa @NineInchBride ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 4 points by WhyteHorse (11) 2 weeks ago

If it's crowdfunded it COULD be all of us and go beyond $1billion. It's easy to dismiss this idea as escapism. People dismiss earth-ships as "piles of rubble", medical marijuana as "for people who just want to get high", and anybody who wants to have a better life as "seeking to escape". ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 4 points by Renneye (3127) 2 weeks ago

You're right. We'd likely suffer being labelled and ridiculed...but that's every revolution.

So, in fact, yes...we can expect it. It will start right here on this thread. Ideas like this scare the heck out of the establishment.

Be prepared for this thread to be sabotaged heavily. We have to stay the course and have confidence in our endeavor. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed]

[Removed] [-] 2 points by jart (1264) from New York, NY 2 weeks ago

A+++ ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 3 points by chakana (7) 2 weeks ago

New Yorkers are already leaving in droves to "start" over, deciding that having slightly bigger bagels isn't worth all the hassle. I love NY, but this is as funny as all hell.

http://www.theonion.com/search/?q=8.4+million+New+Yorkers+leave ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by DKAtoday (32758) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 weeks ago

I take it that you're not impressed? {:-]) ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by ZenDog (20333) from South Burlington, VT 2 weeks ago

It is an interesting idea - and then I think of Jamestown, the Branch Davidians, Charlie Manson and Heaven's Gate . . . . ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by grapes (2588) 2 weeks ago

The problem with these cults was that they had charismatic leaders who had persuaded their followers to reject the ways of the mainstream society and become increasingly isolated.

Avoiding the pitfall with charismatic leaders is to have either no leader or employ a decision mechanism instead. The experiment can probably be reasonably informative if a thousand people participate in it. It should be conducted close to the participants' present life-support areas, with no coercion to stay, and without any kind of informational isolation from their loved ones. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 0 points by ZenDog (20333) from South Burlington, VT 2 weeks ago

If you really want to TRY to understand the problem with these cults you will first need to sit down and read:

When Prophecy Fails, by Festinger et.al.

• Then try to wrap your mind around the simple fact that this research began in an era where the aspirations BEHIND

   MK-ULTRA

were just beginning to gell

.

don't even talk to me about it until you've done your homework . . . and maybe not even then . . . ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

For once we agree, except that it's not an interesting idea. Starting a new commune is nothing new. People do it all the time. For this idea to be interesting it would have to come with some details on how this new commune would work, why we need it, how we would create it, where, etc.... For now, it's like a painter saying he has the idea to paint. Ok, so what? A lot of people have the idea to paint. Where are the details? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by ZenDog (20333) from South Burlington, VT 2 weeks ago

so? we tend to agree on this particular point. So what.

YOu are still thrasymachus, right? The clown who bombed GF's inbox, then mine - the guy who posted gay porn pics and thus forced a tweak to the code that ended the ability to post images in comments. Right?

The clown with the NJPD sock puppet?

Why would I presume, after all of that, that you now actually agree with me? You are simply laying the groundwork for something. Perhaps I can save us both some time and trouble.

I'm not interested. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] -1 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

Lol, of course A+++! It's your idea, from Larry Page! Lol

I gave a reply below: http://occupywallst.org/article/wild-proposal-raise-1billion/#comment-1023105 ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by DKAtoday (32758) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 weeks ago

EDIT - Is Idaho or Montana or someplace for sale? Gotta have a place to lay foundation then expand from there. With global warming - we will want area that is on high ground.

Though Washington state or Colorado might be better starting places - you know with legalized marijuana there is bio friendly all natural - plastics - clothing - building materials industries - friendly environment to begin with. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 1 points by cheViva (13) 6 days ago

OWS let's do it. Where? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by AnryAnarchist (1) 2 weeks ago

Isn't this what Jim Jones did in South America? Communes have always been used as a tool and have they worked? There are communes RIGHT NOW in EVERY state in the U.S. What are lifestyle politics doing to disrupt this system of oppression? Nothing. No leaving, stay and fight, because "an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"-MLK ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by RFrances (1) 2 weeks ago

I think muffinsanddonuts makes a lot of sense. On and off-the-grid utopian driven societies have been around many centuries. Chapter 5 of Heilbroner's, The Worldly Philosophers, has a good overview.

Another approach for re-imagining governance is to consider what happens after a group like Occupy has breached the barricades and taken over the reins of a current government. How will the government budgets be changed? Will they be changed abruptly or will the current workers and contractors be given time to adjust?

What does the new tax system look like? Has the new system been thoroughly vetted for both administrative manageability as well as how equitable it raises taxes?

How soon will the existing management currently in charge of business infrastructure be changed? If some of the current managers have skills not easily duplicated by others, do they get a chance to continue working in the same capacity? Have issues like what belongs to the private sphere and what belongs to the public sphere been thoroughly considered and debated?

The questions are endless, obviously, since economics and politics is often more about the day-to-day details than some grandiose plan. Generally people are uneasy about significant changes in their lives happening all at once. If the new rulers (for example, Occupy or some offshoot) hope to have some consent from the governed, I'd suggest that it's best to pick 3-6 significant changes to be implemented and rally people behind those proposed changes. Give people a reason to support the movement "because the ideas are better." ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by bullfrogma (342) 2 weeks ago

I think a big problem is that anyone leading this movement could possibly have ulterior motives, such as espionage. A lot can be made to look productive when it actually isn't. We need a space that has the intention of putting these ideas together. Democracy is perverted without education and free speech. So what are our best ideas in regard to having a strategy, and maybe ask how come these occupy sites don't really facilitate an intention of that.

I think we need net neutrality, and something to fix our media. I also think that government funded community creations that attempt to relieve mass distribution would be extremely good. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by 2walterpenny2 (6) 2 weeks ago

To Continue......Move On Washington D.C.........this coming Summer!

Our Financial System destroyed by Goldman-Sachs, A.I.G. & Standard & Poors plus Moodys and a hosts of others...in a global scam to defraud everyone they could... lasted as long as it did 2002-2008 through (actually the beginning know how was learned during the G.H.W. Bush Administration and multiplied 100 times) Criminal Negligence by Congress, the President G.W. Bush, the U.S. Attorney General(s) and the S.E.C., at the beginning headed by Aurthur Levitt, see Google and the Carlyle Group on this crook, as well as local and State Agencies. But it was the White House (Clinton) and Pelosi that signed the death to the Glass-Steagall Act...setting all of this in motion in 1999. Over the next decade Pelosi, the White House (Bush nor Obama) nor Congress have protected our financial system from eventual collapse.

Under a new law these leaders and their assets will be confiscated completely know matter where they are deposited, State side or offshore. Corporations involved in this as well will be liquidated, as well as their executive's holdings, board of directors and partners, all will be confiscated and sold off to pay back those they defrauded.

IF all of George HW Bush cronies got out before the crash or at least the ones in their inner circle...then there was enough information for everyone to know it was going to collapse, Pelosi's negligence is criminal for this simple fact, and the fact she signed and instructed fellow Democrats, as did Clinton, to sign the new act "the Financial Modernization Act. Then state in 2008 they didn't know the economy was going to fail! Sorry your cooked Pelosi. I have to say here if there is one bigger flake bigger than GW Bush its his buddy Nancy Pelosi....remember her statement "Impeaching Bush is off the table 2006" ........!

That failure in leadership is criminal..so Pelosi and the rest will be prosecuted as I have stated by the New Attorney General after this Summer Move On D.C. ....Chris Swecker.

The New Financial System will see the current National Debt...packaged as a 100 year Mortgage. Those that created it will start the payoff of it. George HW Bush & Family, their entire family assets will be confiscated, as will Bill & Hillary Clintons, and as stated Former and Present Goldman-Sachs executives Henry Paulson and Lloyd Blankfein. All will face a New Law "The Domestic Terrorism Act" holding individuals, corporations & their executives, board of directors and partners, government officials, completely responsible for their negligence and or actions.

From there, U.S. Taxation as we know it will change. "US Taxation No Longer Works" and has not worked since the mid 1970's. When a Major Power begins to lose control of its energy supply, Mid 1970s and fails in a major War it has engaged in for 10 years "The Vietnam War" it is no longer a major power completely, thus its economic system which includes its financial system must be changed and wasn't.

Because of the failures in leadership, Nixon, then Reagan, Reaganomics was a complete failure, Their failed financial system started to Debt Spend in a Peace Time Economy. Reagan spent $3.4 trillion (Debt Spending) and wasted 50% of it. Further failure by George H.W. Bush, saw the Country back in Recession in less than 10 years from the time Reagan Debt Spending started ( $3.4 Trillion ). Bad leadership, but even worse the Financial System kept failing Americans. Then the corruption of George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush, Recessions 1988,89,90,91,and part of 92 < Sr. Bush and again 2007,08,09,10,11,12,13,14 < George W. Bush. ( I call him Bush Jr.)

Through all of this "They" those who have controlled our financial system since after World War II failed, failed in leadership, failed in safeguards, and we now find Ourselves stripped of just about everything, Our property values, Our savings and Retirement Funds, how many lost their businesses, (more than once over the last 30 yrs. because of the Bush Corruption and their failed financial system?) whipped out in Bush 88,89,90,91, again in bringing G.W. Bush to Power in the election of Nov. 2000, the deliberate destruction of the Tech Boom, lead by Goldman-Sachs Henry Paulson and Bill Gates. By the way Bill & Melinda Gates will lose everything. Personal, Business and their Foundation will be sold off to pay back those they ripped off. Microsoft will be broken up, as will Holding Companies such as G.E.

The New form of US Taxation will see the end of Personal as well as Corporate Taxation. Consumption Tax will take their place to a degree, but Taxation will never be able to cover what the Nation needs in the way of infrastructure, education, energy, city rebuilding, especially more than one million acres of Ghetto. With this comes Planned Growth through Business Development on all levels of the Economy, but that means every City, County and State..and the Federal Government and their agencies - spending will be thoroughly audited annually for correct planning, follow through, cronyism, and government corruption, including duplication, wages, benefits and retirement spending. Here the G.A.O. and the I.R.S. along with State and Local Agencies will switch to cover this need called "correct assessment", including private accounting firms, they will be "the independent assessment" (local accounting firms).

Global competition will not disappear... it will grow. The huge failure of the current corrupt financial system must come to an end, correctly! To safeguard our society, our children, our communities, our Nation...realistic forms of Government have to be put in place once the Corruption of the Current System is done away with this Summer.

Jim Evanhoe

Next: Foreign Workers, Green Cards, Work Visas, and Citizenship, all of it next time, Tomorrow, IT will all be in place and in working order in less than one year from Mover On D.C.....where by Bikers of America lead US to Our Capitalism and Our Democracy once again. Bet on it this will absolutely happen this coming Summer! The Country needs deal with this Now! "Where People are not included, correctly, they know it, so they spend and send their money-their wages else where! Its time to run Our Country correctly!...Its time to Move On D.C. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

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[Removed] [-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21771) 2 weeks ago

So, I have thought about it. I think if that's your thing go- for it.

Don't look at me. Sounds like a nice and polite way of saying, "GTFO". Last time that I checked the Constitution is still the highest law in the land. It doesn't go away. But, if I am busy over there then I won't be in the way when they try to rewrite it and then they can just roll right over me wherever I may be. So, no. I'll be damned if I am given busy work to stay out of the way. My response is, "No, you GTFO." ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 0 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

My 2 cents on why this idea isn't good.

I know Larry Page of Google proposed the idea of creating a new country, and some OWS founders like Justine Tunney have picked up on this. On the surface it seems interesting, but when you dig a little deeper it is not.

First, the idea has no depth at all. People have started countries and communities since the beginning of time. We have nearly 300 countries in the world, all separated in states/provinces/prefectures. Then we already have communes like AuroVille in India and many others in the US and other countries. Nothing new here at all. It's like someone saying he has the idea to make a painting. OK, so what? The idea only could become interesting if there was a detailed plan on how it would be done, how the community/country would be run, etc... Some people like Jacques Fresco have spent their entire lives designing these types of ideas. I personally find that Jacques dabbles in Utopia, but I respect the fact that he brought a lot of details to his ideas. We would need that here.

Secondly, like the other ideas I have heard this year from OWS (A paid non-violent militia, the idea to turn our attention towards helping animals, working on stop smoking campaigns, etc...), this idea also seems to go outside of what OWS is all about. Like I said above, we already have all kinds of people around the world trying to create communes and other types of communities. Just like we already have PETA and many other groups to take care of animals. OWS should stick to what makes it unique: The idea to go against capitalism by protesting and promoting anarchy. I don't see the point of doing something others are already doing, especially since we have something unique.

Thirdly, it seems like a copout. Sort of like saying - "We are unable to change society with OWS, so we'll go out in the woods and start our own." I find this extremely sad because it makes it seem like we are giving up.

Finally, isolating ourselves and creating a new community will not solve the world's problems. The environment is being raped, people are being crushed economically all around the world by capitalism, etc... We need to stay in the theatre of the real fight. This is not a time to run away and hide. The real world needs us. We need to change US and all the other countries if we want the planet to survive and if we want to help the poor. Even if we created a new isolated society, so what? Countries like US would still be pillaging the environment, making wars, and destroying everything with capitalism. The only difference would be that all the anarchists would have left to hide in their new society. There wouldn't even be any resistance anymore. No, we need to stick together and fight the system that's right in front of us.

OWS needs to go back to its bread and butter. It needs to go back to protesting. That's why many people joined in the first place. It will only hurt OWS to spread itself to all kinds of areas already covered by others. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by WhyteHorse (11) 2 weeks ago

I couldn't disagree more. To call this a commune is really insulting. Every commune I've seen, including Auroville, began with a handful of people. A crowdfunded civilization is open to all. If 99% of people decide to join there would only be 1% left to rule themselves (and clean their toilets, hehe). So it's nothing at all like a retreat into the woods... it's more like exiting a casino and taking all the players home for a 100% payout game. It doesn't have to be isolated. The US won't have any soldiers if enough people quit their crappy military jobs to go live in a real civilization.

If it isn't obvious that "We are unable to change society with OWS" by now, then you need to re-evaluate the facts. The stuff you're doing is actually propping up the system you oppose. All the charity work you do lowers the cost to those at the top. Instead of the 1% paying taxes to feed the poor, they don't pay any taxes and OWS picks up the tab.

This idea is interesting to me because it works. The Zeitgeist movement has done extensive analyses showing just that. The US began this way as well. It's no big secret or novel idea. It just works and there comes a logical point in human history where it makes more sense for a society to fork from the old and begin anew. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 1 points by gnomunny (5545) from St Louis, MO 2 weeks ago

What makes you think this is Larry Page's idea? It's signed "JS." ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 0 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/15/4334356/larry-page-wants-to-set-aside-a-part-of-the-world-for-experimentation

https://twitter.com/JustineTunney/status/433751276325986304

https://twitter.com/JustineTunney/status/433749538613239808

https://twitter.com/JustineTunney/status/433696671902736384 ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 weeks ago

   You have been blocked from following this account at the request of the user.

I must be important

   You might also want to follow:

   SabotageMovie „ Verified account @SabotageMovie

   The Official Twitter Account for #SabotageMovie, busting into theaters March 28, 2014! Promoted Justin Wedes „ @justinwedes

   Educator, activist and occupier. I'm co-founder of the Paul Robeson @FreedomSchoolBK: bit[dot]ly/SupportBK Tim Pool „ Verified account @Timcast

   Mobile/Tech specialist, Award winning Journalist, Producer @VICE | Contact: Tim@Vice.com | Tweets are my own and not endorsements

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] -1 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

Nah, Occupy bans and blocks a lot of people. Nothing special at all. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 weeks ago

does this mean I can't ask for my youtube account back ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-da4RM6m0kc ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] -2 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

Here's the Twitter where Justine talks about the idea:

https://twitter.com/JustineTunney/status/432974228305240065

That was 2 days ago. Then she posted it here today under JS, but it's from her. She's been getting a lot of heat this week, so she wanted to make it seem like the idea was from someone else.

OWS is kind of becoming an extension of Google I guess. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by WhyteHorse (11) 2 weeks ago

Justine didn't post it, Micah did after I emailed it to him. I stole the idea from "Manna" by Marshall Brain here http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

I also stole it from Isaac Asimov's Foundation, "Walden" by Thoreau, Twin Oaks, East Wind, etcetera and so on and so forth. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] -3 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

Justine Tunney talked about it on her Twitter feed. Larry Page has been talking about creating a new country, and since then Jart has been posting about this idea on her Twitter account. She works at Google, so she got the idea there. She worships everything Google, which I find lame, but whatever it's not important.

But, who cares who's idea it is. It's nothing new. There are people doing communes all around the world as we speak. We already have plenty of communes. Why would OWS waste time to create another one? The problem is the world. We need to save the world, not to go hide in the woods. That's just an egotistical idea. It's saying we can't do it - save the world - so we'll go isolate ourselves and save ourselves. It's people who find it hard to work with others who want to go isolate themselves. No, we need to work with everyone, including the people who oppose us. The world is in grave danger. We need to save it, not just ourselves. Everyone needs to work together. We need to create the 99%. We haven't done that yet. People bicker and attack others, instead they should be doing the opposite. We should be trying to find common goals between people. Common goals do exist. Concentrate on what we all want, not the things that make us different. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 1 points by gnomunny (5545) from St Louis, MO 2 weeks ago

Staying abreast of things on the Twitter front, I see. It's a whole different world over there compared to here, isn't it?

Initially I thought this was a good idea, but I have to admit, you make some good points. The biggest point is, regardless of how self-sufficient this new society may be, it can't escape climate change. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 0 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

We have to realize that things can change.

A hundred years ago is was respectable to have slaves, now being racist is extremely frowned upon. Look at the situation with gays. In only a few decades they have become more and more accepted in society.

The same thing can happen with Occupy views. As it becomes more and more obvious that capitalism destroys the planet and makes the rich richer and the poor poorer, the views of OWS will become more and more respected.

That's why we can't go into hiding. We have to keep the discourse alive. We shouldn't worry about an us vs them conspiracy type scenario either. Sure, we hear that the mass medias are against us and so on. But, let's not forget that the more occupiers we have, the more occupiers will be playing different roles in society. Some will grow up to work in these media firms. We'll spread all over the place. We just need to keep putting pressure on the system, and remain as visible as possible.

We need to keep the tensions going, not killing all tensions by going to hide together in a commune. Tensions with society I mean. We need patience. These ideas of becoming PETA, of creating a commune, etc... they all go against what Occupy should be focusing on. Seriously, we need to go back to the bread and butter. We just need to protest and make our voices heard, and to keep creating groups like the Rolling Jubilee. Results will come in time. Patience is key. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 3 points by gnomunny (5545) from St Louis, MO 2 weeks ago

Consider this: not a commune that shuts itself off from the world, but a society, a laboratory if you will, where ideas could be worked out for the purpose of implementing them on the world at large. Such a thing might not be possible within the constraints of, say, the United States. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] -1 points by muffinsanddonuts (9) from Union City, NJ 2 weeks ago

Ya, OWS on other Internet mediums like reedit and Twitter is completely different than here. That's because on those feeds you get the opinions of real Occupiers. Also, it's harder to ban those who don't always agree, so you get a bigger variety of ideas.

If just think communes have already been tried. I care about OWS because I want my world to be better. I want to help the planet by creating a new system that is responsible for the environment, for animals, for people. A fair system. I'm not interested in moving the problems inside a commune. That's too limited for OWS in my opinion. We already have international recognition. A commune is the complete opposite of occupying a space like Zuccotti in the middle of NYC. That was making a mark. Making sure the whole world could see us. It was creating a discourse between people in the world. We wanted change! By going to a commune, then we kill the discourse. Then it's just us creating a small isolate world in the woods. It is essentially running away from problems instead of trying to deal with them. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 weeks ago

so those e mail numbers were just numbers ? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed] [-] 0 points by ZenDog (20333) from South Burlington, VT 2 weeks ago

at $1000 it is a far better deal than superbowl tickets - and far more entertaining. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] -1 points by 2walterpenny2 (6) 2 weeks ago

Join the Move On D.C........... The Federal Reserve has been passing out money and more money in the shape of buying bonds, etc., etc.....its done nothing but produce a GDP said to be Good...but the facts are the US Financial System has been corrupted by The Bush Element, Goldman-Sachs, Financial Fraud Scams, Junk Bonds, Failed-Needless Wars and a Military that is completely out of control for so long that it is absolutely Bankrupt...if it remains in their hands under their system of corruption for much longer it collapses, its nothing more than a house of cards just waiting to collapse. If the Financial System isn't changed completely and soon that will be that.....they will have everything and US the American People will have Nothing! So this coming Summer we are "Moving on D.C." to take it back. To change the current Financial System from their crap, fraud and corruption...to again American Small Businesses, local and regional banks and a Wall Street under control for the betterment of the Companies people buy stock in. But first Wall Street will be closed for 90 days...after that period, there will no longer be Day Trading, or the Speed of Light Trades...purchasers of Stock will be required to hold their stock for 18 months....for the next 2 years then maybe be allowed to return to daily trades. Anytime a market closes at a low of 2% it will remain closed for 10 days. We will take the gambling out of the Market or close it for good. We will demand Obama, Holder and Pelosi resign, step down...their corruption the criminal negligence, their criminal obstruction and racketeering with regards to Wall Street Corruption, Goldman-Sachs to the racketeering via money laundering by HSBC will come to and end. Executives from these Companies will be prosecuted under a New Law: Domestic Terrorism Act, retro-back 30 plus years, to cover deliberate fraud by Bush Cronies. They all will be prosecuted. National Banks all of them will be taken over and broken up into State, Regional & Local Banks only. Got to go for now! One last item retailing will change as well: Walmart will agree to become a distributor of goods to small retailers and end being a retailer altogether. Think On That.........so capitalism is returning to the many not the few...by Moving on DC this Summer. Join the Bikers of America...3.3million strong Moving on D.C.

Related pages

Freedom Paradigm at https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Freedom_Paradigm Their website, http://occupywallst.org/, was made with https://github.com/jart/occupywallst includes a nice comment interface. My user here on wiki is User:EM_Che I want to dedicate some time to helping Occupy Wall Street New York, and perhaps other places too, Oakland? With their move-in to be away from capitalism peacefully without police.