[sudo-discuss] Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations

Rachel Wolfsohn rawjnana at gmail.com
Mon Apr 6 12:02:56 PDT 2015 

and Darin needs to be held accountable

but so does WildCat for process respect

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is very important to me, because I said I wouldn't keep including
> sudo discuss, and now i'm going back on that
> but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
>  so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
> whether mine or not
> so I'm responding to sudo discuss
>  to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
>
> sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
>
> *People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
> *Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic
> behavior before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
> *and a reformed community, *
> *where they can try to learn and grow. *
>
> *If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with them?*
>
> * If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, *
> *and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
> *to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like
> the state does,*
> * if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution*
> * besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
> *whenever possible. *
>
> *NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
>
> *IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one
> mediation, *
> *and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being
> banned, and see the issues clear*
> * my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
> * I often think WildCat is right,*
> * but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
>
> *You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
> *In Some Case In Your Life, *
> *If You Recognize The Process At All*
>
> *If You're Willing To Work On It, *
>
> *The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
> * In Dire Circumstances *
> *Not In Any Case You Want*
> * And Every Case All The Time*
> * Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
>
> *I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
>
> PERSONALLY I feel:
> Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously
> exiled and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to
> go. This is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it
> and ignore people
>
> *If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
> pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
>
> *What would you do with them? *
> *Put them all in one country? *
> *Kind of like a concentration of them?*
> * Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
>
> *We need to help people grow, and *
> *if you consider yourself an organizer *
> *or a helper of the world*
> * it IS your job to help people grow a*
> *nd give people another chance, *
> *provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
>
> *It has to come from them. Yes.*
> *And it is coming from Darin, *
> *however slowly he's learning*
>
> Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
> And you're scaring people,
> with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
>
> now that you think you have power
>
> *i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking another
> break.*
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Also with that one month ban I feel that from then on there would need
>>> to be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time I
>>> saw him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a
>>> couple of blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to
>>> walk away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing
>>> the line with these people but what folks need to understand is that each
>>> of these people have been going through conflict mediation in this space so
>>> the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for the
>>> taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. Though to be
>>> accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more members of
>>> the space to address them.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So I have known Darin for years and he has been called out for all of
>>>> this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him misgendering
>>>> me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were several
>>>> witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a defensive
>>>> response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs.  sexual harassment
>>>> is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who have called
>>>> him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by Joe but
>>>> but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose a month
>>>> ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have serious
>>>> consequences.
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this thread...
>>>>>
>>>>> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the
>>>>> chance to do so before a ban goes through.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
>>>>>
>>>>> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is justified
>>>>> and potent.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
>>>>> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after we
>>>>> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
>>>>> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic shit like
>>>>> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is actively
>>>>> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from harassment
>>>>> daily.
>>>>>
>>>>> Misgendering:
>>>>> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you Wildcat, because your
>>>>> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
>>>>> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in general, and
>>>>> ALSO camaraderie with you.
>>>>> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with continuous
>>>>> editing on my part, as it is for others.
>>>>> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best to
>>>>> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too,  now that this
>>>>> information is available
>>>>>
>>>>> Sexual Language:
>>>>> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin and
>>>>> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, bc it was
>>>>> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
>>>>> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his tongue,
>>>>> but not an implication of action either, more like expression.
>>>>> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
>>>>> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private thoughts
>>>>> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
>>>>>
>>>>> Love, seriously, love,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
>>>>> tdfischer at hackerbots.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the hundreds
>>>>> of
>>>>> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. I
>>>>> don't want
>>>>> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who is
>>>>> fighting
>>>>> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather just
>>>>> hack a
>>>>> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has their
>>>>> shit
>>>>> together and everyone gets along.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Ƀ0.02.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
>>>>> > These are community issues not personal issues.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical at comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > > Sudoers,
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address
>>>>> issues of
>>>>> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming
>>>>> other
>>>>> > > than
>>>>> > > this public mailing list?  Why anyone would want to go to Sudo
>>>>> room after
>>>>> > > reading this  mailing list is beyond my comprehension.  And it
>>>>> really is a
>>>>> > > great place.  Can anyone think of another venue for these types of
>>>>> > > discussions?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Tracy
>>>>> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter
>>>>> and
>>>>> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and
>>>>> handle
>>>>> > > this like an adult."
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that
>>>>> "you need
>>>>> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also clarified
>>>>> by
>>>>> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin
>>>>> did not
>>>>> > > give any details of what happened.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
>>>>> wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces
>>>>> policy
>>>>> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as
>>>>> recent
>>>>> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of
>>>>> the
>>>>> > >> safer
>>>>> > >> spaces policy by aggressive  behavior (aggressive swearing,
>>>>> intentional
>>>>> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an
>>>>> aggressive way
>>>>> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has had a
>>>>> history
>>>>> > >> of
>>>>> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
>>>>> harassment and
>>>>> > >> inappropriate behavior.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not
>>>>> feel
>>>>> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and
>>>>> Centi.
>>>>> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior.
>>>>> Pidgen has
>>>>> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement
>>>>> problems -
>>>>> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
>>>>> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on
>>>>> the
>>>>> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> > > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> <3 Rachel
>



-- 
<3 Rachel
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