[sudo-discuss] Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations

Torrie Fischer tdfischer at hackerbots.net
Mon Apr 6 13:27:01 PDT 2015 

This is very not important to me because I don't want to read this on sudo 
discuss so I'm unsubscribing from sudo discuss for a while because everyone 
keeps including sudo-discuss as if it somehow makes everything better.

On Monday, April 06, 2015 11:59:40 AM Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:
> This is very important to me, because I said I wouldn't keep including sudo
> discuss, and now i'm going back on that
> but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
>  so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
> whether mine or not
> so I'm responding to sudo discuss
>  to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
> 
> sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
> 
> *People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
> *Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic behavior
> before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
> *and a reformed community, *
> *where they can try to learn and grow. *
> 
> *If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with them?*
> 
> * If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, *
> *and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
> *to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like the
> state does,*
> * if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution*
> * besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
> *whenever possible. *
> 
> *NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
> 
> *IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one
> mediation, *
> *and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being
> banned, and see the issues clear*
> * my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
> * I often think WildCat is right,*
> * but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
> 
> *You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
> *In Some Case In Your Life, *
> *If You Recognize The Process At All*
> 
> *If You're Willing To Work On It, *
> 
> *The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
> * In Dire Circumstances *
> *Not In Any Case You Want*
> * And Every Case All The Time*
> * Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
> 
> *I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
> 
> PERSONALLY I feel:
> Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously exiled
> and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to go. This
> is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it and ignore
> people
> 
> *If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
> pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
> 
> *What would you do with them? *
> *Put them all in one country? *
> *Kind of like a concentration of them?*
> * Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
> 
> *We need to help people grow, and *
> *if you consider yourself an organizer *
> *or a helper of the world*
> * it IS your job to help people grow a*
> *nd give people another chance, *
> *provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
> 
> *It has to come from them. Yes.*
> *And it is coming from Darin, *
> *however slowly he's learning*
> 
> Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
> And you're scaring people,
> with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
> 
> now that you think you have power
> 
> *i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking another
> break.*
> 
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
> > 
> > On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
> > 
> > wrote:
> >> Also with that one month ban I feel that from then on there would need to
> >> be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time I saw
> >> him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a couple
> >> of
> >> blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to walk
> >> away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing the
> >> line with these people but what folks need to understand is that each of
> >> these people have been going through conflict mediation in this space so
> >> the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for the
> >> taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. Though to
> >> be
> >> accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more members of
> >> the space to address them.
> >> 
> >> On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> So I have known Darin for years and he has been called out for all of
> >>> this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him
> >>> misgendering
> >>> me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were several
> >>> witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a defensive
> >>> response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs.  sexual
> >>> harassment
> >>> is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who have
> >>> called
> >>> him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by Joe
> >>> but
> >>> but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose a
> >>> month
> >>> ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have serious
> >>> consequences.
> >>> 
> >>> On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this thread...
> >>>> 
> >>>> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the chance
> >>>> to do so before a ban goes through.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
> >>>> 
> >>>> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is justified
> >>>> and potent.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
> >>>> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after we
> >>>> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
> >>>> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic shit
> >>>> like
> >>>> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is actively
> >>>> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from
> >>>> harassment
> >>>> daily.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Misgendering:
> >>>> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you Wildcat, because your
> >>>> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
> >>>> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in general, and
> >>>> ALSO camaraderie with you.
> >>>> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with continuous
> >>>> editing on my part, as it is for others.
> >>>> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best to
> >>>> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too,  now that
> >>>> this
> >>>> information is available
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sexual Language:
> >>>> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin and
> >>>> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, bc it
> >>>> was
> >>>> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
> >>>> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his tongue, but
> >>>> not an implication of action either, more like expression.
> >>>> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
> >>>> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private
> >>>> thoughts
> >>>> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
> >>>> 
> >>>> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
> >>>> 
> >>>> Love, seriously, love,
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
> >>>> tdfischer at hackerbots.net> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the hundreds
> >>>> of
> >>>> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
> >>>> 
> >>>> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. I
> >>>> don't want
> >>>> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who is
> >>>> fighting
> >>>> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather just
> >>>> hack a
> >>>> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has their
> >>>> shit
> >>>> together and everyone gets along.
> >>>> 
> >>>> My Ƀ0.02.
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
> >>>> > These are community issues not personal issues.
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical at comcast.net>
> >>>> 
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > > Sudoers,
> >>>> > > 
> >>>> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address
> >>>> 
> >>>> issues of
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming
> >>>> 
> >>>> other
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > than
> >>>> > > this public mailing list?  Why anyone would want to go to Sudo room
> >>>> 
> >>>> after
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > reading this  mailing list is beyond my comprehension.  And it
> >>>> 
> >>>> really is a
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > great place.  Can anyone think of another venue for these types of
> >>>> > > discussions?
> >>>> > > 
> >>>> > > Tracy
> >>>> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
> >>>> 
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter
> >>>> 
> >>>> and
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and
> >>>> 
> >>>> handle
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > this like an adult."
> >>>> > > 
> >>>> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that
> >>>> 
> >>>> "you need
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also clarified
> >>>> 
> >>>> by
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
> >>>> > > 
> >>>> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin
> >>>> 
> >>>> did not
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > give any details of what happened.
> >>>> > > 
> >>>> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
> >>>> 
> >>>> wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
> >>>> 
> >>>> > > wrote:
> >>>> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces
> >>>> 
> >>>> policy
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as
> >>>> 
> >>>> recent
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of
> >>>> 
> >>>> the
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> safer
> >>>> > >> spaces policy by aggressive  behavior (aggressive swearing,
> >>>> 
> >>>> intentional
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an
> >>>> 
> >>>> aggressive way
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has had a
> >>>> 
> >>>> history
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> of
> >>>> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
> >>>> 
> >>>> harassment and
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> inappropriate behavior.
> >>>> > >> 
> >>>> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not
> >>>> 
> >>>> feel
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
> >>>> > >> 
> >>>> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and
> >>>> 
> >>>> Centi.
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Pidgen has
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement
> >>>> 
> >>>> problems -
> >>>> 
> >>>> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
> >>>> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on
> >>>> > >> the
> >>>> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
> >>>> > > 
> >>>> > > _______________________________________________
> >>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>>> > > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>> 
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

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