[sudo-discuss] Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations

hol at gaskill.com hol at gaskill.com
Mon Apr 6 15:25:35 PDT 2015 

friendly reminder - our conflict resolution process was born out of a 
desire to keep conflicts from consuming the time and energy of the whole 
community, especially those that are not involved in the conflict and do 
not have bandwidth to help mediate as an impartial party - this includes 
general meetings and discussion forums

On 2015-04-06 14:02, Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:

> I'm sorry, Torrie, I really am....sudoconsensus may be needed?
> On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Torrie Fischer 
> <tdfischer at hackerbots.net> wrote:
> 
>> This is very not important to me because I don't want to read this on 
>> sudo
>> discuss so I'm unsubscribing from sudo discuss for a while because 
>> everyone
>> keeps including sudo-discuss as if it somehow makes everything better.
>> 
>> On Monday, April 06, 2015 11:59:40 AM Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:
>>> This is very important to me, because I said I wouldn't keep 
>>> including sudo
>>> discuss, and now i'm going back on that
>>> but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
>>> so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
>>> whether mine or not
>>> so I'm responding to sudo discuss
>>> to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
>>> 
>>> sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
>>> 
>>> *People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
>>> *Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic 
>>> behavior
>>> before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
>>> *and a reformed community, *
>>> *where they can try to learn and grow. *
>>> 
>>> *If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with 
>>> them?*
>>> 
>>> * If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or 
>>> TJ, *
>>> *and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
>>> *to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, 
>>> like the
>>> state does,*
>>> * if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of 
>>> resolution*
>>> * besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
>>> *whenever possible. *
>>> 
>>> *NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
>>> 
>>> *IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than 
>>> one
>>> mediation, *
>>> *and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person 
>>> being
>>> banned, and see the issues clear*
>>> * my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
>>> * I often think WildCat is right,*
>>> * but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
>>> 
>>> *You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
>>> *In Some Case In Your Life, *
>>> *If You Recognize The Process At All*
>>> 
>>> *If You're Willing To Work On It, *
>>> 
>>> *The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
>>> * In Dire Circumstances *
>>> *Not In Any Case You Want*
>>> * And Every Case All The Time*
>>> * Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
>>> 
>>> *I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
>>> 
>>> PERSONALLY I feel:
>>> Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously 
>>> exiled
>>> and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to 
>>> go. This
>>> is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it and 
>>> ignore
>>> people
>>> 
>>> *If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
>>> pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
>>> 
>>> *What would you do with them? *
>>> *Put them all in one country? *
>>> *Kind of like a concentration of them?*
>>> * Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
>>> 
>>> *We need to help people grow, and *
>>> *if you consider yourself an organizer *
>>> *or a helper of the world*
>>> * it IS your job to help people grow a*
>>> *nd give people another chance, *
>>> *provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
>>> 
>>> *It has to come from them. Yes.*
>>> *And it is coming from Darin, *
>>> *however slowly he's learning*
>>> 
>>> Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
>>> And you're scaring people,
>>> with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
>>> 
>>> now that you think you have power
>>> 
>>> *i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking 
>>> another
>>> break.*
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc at gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>> PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat 
>>>> <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Also with that one month ban I feel that from then on there would 
>>>>> need to
>>>>> be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time 
>>>>> I saw
>>>>> him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a 
>>>>> couple
>>>>> of
>>>>> blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to 
>>>>> walk
>>>>> away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing 
>>>>> the
>>>>> line with these people but what folks need to understand is that 
>>>>> each of
>>>>> these people have been going through conflict mediation in this 
>>>>> space so
>>>>> the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for 
>>>>> the
>>>>> taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. 
>>>>> Though to
>>>>> be
>>>>> accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more 
>>>>> members of
>>>>> the space to address them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> So I have known Darin for years and he has been called out for all 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him
>>>>>> misgendering
>>>>>> me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were 
>>>>>> several
>>>>>> witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a 
>>>>>> defensive
>>>>>> response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs. sexual
>>>>>> harassment
>>>>>> is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who 
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> called
>>>>>> him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by 
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> month
>>>>>> ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have 
>>>>>> serious
>>>>>> consequences.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana at gmail.com> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this 
>>>>>>> thread...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the 
>>>>>>> chance
>>>>>>> to do so before a ban goes through.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is 
>>>>>>> justified
>>>>>>> and potent.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
>>>>>>> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after 
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
>>>>>>> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic 
>>>>>>> shit
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is 
>>>>>>> actively
>>>>>>> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from
>>>>>>> harassment
>>>>>>> daily.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Misgendering:
>>>>>>> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you Wildcat, because 
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
>>>>>>> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in 
>>>>>>> general, and
>>>>>>> ALSO camaraderie with you.
>>>>>>> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with 
>>>>>>> continuous
>>>>>>> editing on my part, as it is for others.
>>>>>>> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too, now 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> information is available
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sexual Language:
>>>>>>> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, 
>>>>>>> bc it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
>>>>>>> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his 
>>>>>>> tongue, but
>>>>>>> not an implication of action either, more like expression.
>>>>>>> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
>>>>>>> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private
>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Love, seriously, love,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
>>>>>>> tdfischer at hackerbots.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the 
>>>>>>> hundreds
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. 
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>>> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> fighting
>>>>>>> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather 
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> hack a
>>>>>>> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> shit
>>>>>>> together and everyone gets along.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My Ƀ0.02.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
>>>>>>> > These are community issues not personal issues.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical at comcast.net>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > > Sudoers,
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> issues of
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > than
>>>>>>> > > this public mailing list? Why anyone would want to go to Sudo room
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > reading this mailing list is beyond my comprehension. And it
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> really is a
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > great place. Can anyone think of another venue for these types of
>>>>>>> > > discussions?
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Tracy
>>>>>>> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > this like an adult."
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "you need
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also clarified
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> did not
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > give any details of what happened.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>>>> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> policy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> recent
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> safer
>>>>>>> > >> spaces policy by aggressive behavior (aggressive swearing,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> intentional
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> aggressive way
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has had a
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> history
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> of
>>>>>>> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> harassment and
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> inappropriate behavior.
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Centi.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Pidgen has
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> problems -
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
>>>>>>> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on
>>>>>>> > >> the
>>>>>>> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> > > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss [1]


Links:
------
[1] https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

More information about the sudo-discuss mailing list