[sudo-discuss] [omni-mediation] Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations

Patrick O'Doherty p at trickod.com
Wed Apr 8 14:25:27 PDT 2015 

Not to armchair-hackerspace but this thread is turning rapidly into
community poison.

This thread is now a personal conflict issue, and it most certainly does
not involve everyone on sudo-discuss. Please for the love of god take
this off the mailing list. If you and Rachel wish to further discuss
this that's most excellent, but please do so elsewhere.

Every thread like this sucks life out of the community around sudo who
want to do great things, hack epic things, and otherwise contribute, by
instead commandeering their emotional energy and demanding it be spent
on an issue that they can't resolve.

**note very clearly** I'm not saying the safe-space issues here are
invalid, or that they should not be worked on, only that sudo-discuss
and this particular thread are wholly incompatible.

sending love to all the wonderful hackers @ sudo from across the bay.

p


On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 01:55:15PM -0700, WIld Cat wrote:
> "But I do know there are people avoiding the space,
> peaceful people never in conflict,
> who are put off by your presence WildCat, and fearful of it...
> ...is that the power you want"
>
> Can you describe who these people are and why they are "put off"?  I know
> some people are "put off" that I am utilizing the Safer Spaces Policy and
> confront behaivors that I find problematic but I think that there are some
> people "put off" because they don't know me, understand where I am coming
> from, and or feel vulnerable because they behaive oppressively themselves
> fear accountability. . For instance Rob said that I was acting "like a cop"
> implying that I was acting authoritarian.  .The way that he put it,
> triggered and offended me deeply because of my experiences being brutalized
> and tortured for acting justly. The police do not hold people accountable
> for issues of oppression, they enforce oppression on the world. Though I
> understand that I sometimes I can be better about being constructive with
> my criticism, I feel that my utilization of the Safer Spaces Policy has
> been legit.He said that he thought I he was worried that I was against all
> men. I responded by telling him that I know a lot of good men that the
> issue is not men but patriarchal/trans-misogynist behaivor that I also have
> to keep in check myself (being that I was socialized to be a straight male
> by my father and the Church but through a process of self realization and
> criticism I have begun unsocializing my self of oppressive behaviors and
> have begun in process of transitioning and coming out as a
> queer/transperson.)
>
> Rachel, I know you have a lot of hope in changing people but I can see that
> creating a lot of problems if we spend so much time trying to do that
> rather than get work done in the OMNI. I have little energy to be in
> mediation processes with defensive/unaccountable people who have greater
> issues of oppression like Doc who is a open National "Anarchist"
> (contradiction) White Supremacist. You ( Rachel)  have expressed that you
> would him like to continue being a part of the space. He has said this like
> "We shouldn't have any immigrants." and "Nuke the Middle East." "National
> Socialists (Nazis) were the first Socialists." Honestly your defense of him
> makes me trust you less because I see your rushed process of "restorative
> justice" as have a certain amount of complacency with oppressive behavior.
> People can call me whatever but one thing I know is that I am not
> complacent with issues of oppression. That means if someone tells me that I
> am being oppressive I will spend a lot of time listening and self reflect
> on ways I can be accountable to their concerns. So regardless I will
> continue to work and be accountable to my community but I am not willing to
> compromise the safety and liberation of the community so that we can "hand
> hold" for oppressive people. I don't believe it is the responsibility of
> the survivors or oppressed in a particular conflict to "teach" the
> oppressor. That responsibility should fall on those who have greater
> privileges and the perpetrator to be self aware and change themselves. No
> oppressive person will change unless they are willing to do commit to a
> lifetime of self-criticism and awareness.
>
>
> *With Darin I am in conversation with FNB Joe about coming up with a
> constructive resolution. To be accountable to the process I am willing to
> meet with a larger circle of people to come up with a community agreement
> about to help Darin grow out of his oppressive behavior and history. *
>
> "Likewise, past what point can we agree that someone has NOT worked on
> their shit, and we shouldn’t bother wasting our time on it anymore? Some
> accountability processes drag on for months and years, diverting collective
> energy from other more fulfilling and useful ends. One stubborn sexist can
> sour an entire scene on making good faith efforts to hold folks
> accountable—which goes to show how important it is to know when to end an
> attempted process before it drags everyone down with it. If we’re going to
> invest so much time and energy in these processes, we need a way to assess
> if it’s worthwhile, and when to admit failure.
>
> Perpetrator accountability is not an easy or short process… It takes a
> lifelong commitment to change behaviors that are so deeply ingrained; it
> requires consistent effort and support. When talking about follow-up, we
> should be making schedules for weeks, but also talking about checking in
> after months and years. It takes that kind of long-lasting support to make
> real transformation possible. Let’s be frank: if we expect people to remain
> involved in an accountability process for some scumbag they don’t even like
> for years, and we expect this as a norm for an increasing number of
> processes for different people, who may or may not be cooperative—we are
> not setting a realistic standard. That’s not to say that the article is
> wrong; transformation of patriarchal and abusive behavior patterns is a
> lifelong process. But is it really a surprise that we fail to sustain these
> difficult, unrewarding processes stretching over such lengths of time, when
> few anarchists in our scene follow through on long-term commitments to even
> our most fervent passions? What can we realistically commit to doing?"
>
> " -
> https://ia902307.us.archive.org/21/items/AccountingForOurselves/accounting-for-ourselves_screen.pdf
>
>
> Here are some other great resources:
> http://www.phillyspissed.net/sites/default/files/what%20to%20do%20when%20someone%20tells%20you.pdf
>
>
> https://inciteblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/why-misogynists-make-great-informants-how-gender-violence-on-the-left-enables-state-violence-in-radical-movements/
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Darin is being held accountable to all of us,
> > I say it like it is to Darin and he's working hard at mediation and
> > counseling.
> > That IS the process
> > Bans protect people and incentivize mediation.
> > Darin is already going through that mediation and should be given the
> > chance to be counseled and improve. Jumping in barely a couple weeks after
> > mediation has begun isnt giving him due time...
> >
> > And others who have been hurt by Darin generally still come around and
> > just don't engage with him,
> >  in fact I hang out with such friends who were not scared away from the
> > space because of him
> > e.g. Babs when she's alone or with people who don't have conflict with
> > Darin,
> >  who see him pass and ignore him, as he does them. Because they do not
> > fear him,
> > Often it is other feelings, many others, including negative ones, I see,
> > but not fear of Darin
> > Until such time as Darin is ready to engage peacefully again, this is
> > sufficient to me...
> >
> > But I do know there are people avoiding the space,
> > peaceful people never in conflict,
> > who are put off by your presence WildCat, and fearful of it...
> > ...is that the power you want?
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 9:10 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Helen what is your alternative for accountability?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Helen Finkelstein <hefinkel at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I strongly disagree.  Banning is too drastic a measure for the problems
> >>> that Darin has, and he has been making a serious effort to deal with them.
> >>>
> >>> There is long-standing hostility between Darin and Babs.   It would be a
> >>> mistake for the OMNI to get involved in it.   Darin, at least, just wants
> >>> to keep his distance.
> >>>
> >>> Helen
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 9:12 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> There has been many attempts to mediate with Darin but still he is
> >>>> unaccountable. Therfore I think he needs  to be banned so that he can take
> >>>> these issues in his life a little more seriously. Helen what is the
> >>>> conflict that y'all are mediating?
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Kevin Laird <thegayscience at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> whoops. Always read to the end of the thread first...   -K
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Kevin Laird <thegayscience at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I would speak with Darin. I would need to speak with whomever has
> >>>>>> been working with him in the past first, is there an extant point
> >>>>>> person/mediator/steward? Plz fwd me contacts or names.
> >>>>>>   tracy I understand your frustrations, and yours as well, cat
> >>>>>> person, but making the future happen requires a lot of patience!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>                 -K
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 5:04 PM, niki <niki.shelley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Adding the mediation mailing list to this thread in the hopes that
> >>>>>>> someone will step forward to steward these conflicts towards whatever ends
> >>>>>>> are in the community's best interest.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> <3
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Niki
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 3:37 PM, WIld Cat <
> >>>>>>> wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> These are community issues not personal issues.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical at comcast.net
> >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sudoers,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address
> >>>>>>>>> issues of a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming
> >>>>>>>>> other than this public mailing list?  Why anyone would want to go to Sudo
> >>>>>>>>> room after reading this  mailing list is beyond my comprehension.  And it
> >>>>>>>>> really is a great place.  Can anyone think of another venue for these types
> >>>>>>>>> of discussions?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tracy
> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter
> >>>>>>>>> and said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and
> >>>>>>>>> handle this like an adult."
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that
> >>>>>>>>> "you need to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also
> >>>>>>>>> clarified by saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin
> >>>>>>>>> did not give any details of what happened.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
> >>>>>>>>> wildcatofthewoods at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces
> >>>>>>>>>> policy on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as
> >>>>>>>>>> recent behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of
> >>>>>>>>>> the safer spaces policy by aggressive  behavior (aggressive swearing,
> >>>>>>>>>> intentional misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an
> >>>>>>>>>> aggressive way that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has
> >>>>>>>>>> had a history of being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
> >>>>>>>>>> harassment and inappropriate behavior.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not
> >>>>>>>>>> feel safe with him being in the space during such process.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and
> >>>>>>>>>> Centi. that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior. Pidgen
> >>>>>>>>>> has been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement problems
> >>>>>>>>>> - theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
> >>>>>>>>>> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on
> >>>>>>>>>> the community to permanently ban Pidgen.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> mediation mailing list
> >>>>>>> mediation at lists.omnicommons.org
> >>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/mediation
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> mediation mailing list
> >>>> mediation at lists.omnicommons.org
> >>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/mediation
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> mediation mailing list
> >> mediation at lists.omnicommons.org
> >> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/mediation
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > <3 Rachel
> >

> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss


--
Patrick O'Doherty
+1 (650) 701-7829
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