Thank you.
-corey scher
510.387-2010
Please excuse the typos from my mobile device.
-------- Original message --------
From: Anthony Di Franco <di.franco(a)gmail.com>
Date: 04/26/2013 12:38 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Tom Fitzpatrick <fitzsnaggle(a)gmail.com>
Cc: omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
Subject: Re: [omi] omi Digest, Vol 3, Issue 15
Brilliant.
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Tom Fitzpatrick <fitzsnaggle(a)gmail.com> wrote:
A couple of years ago when I was lurking OSE heavily, they were
talking about how to get more people involved and utilize all of the
people in their network. They failed at this tremendously. A major
reason was that they required most people to come to Missouri to
really be involved and already have the skills they needed. For other
projects they made proposals and had people bid on them to develop,
but this would only produce 1 iteration of the device - which is not
so good.
Marcin refused to alter the GVSC at all. He was convinced that this
set of machines was the only set that should be built - however there
are many synergies to be considered and many patterns that need to be
tried. He ignored that fact that most people live in cities and that
people of flooding in to them at an accelerated pace. He ignored a
large lesson of Pattern Language that much of the concept was based on
- the emotion needs to be there and a sense of ownership has to be
there. Morale is multiplicative. Decision making has to be made at the
right scale.
Around that time they were talk on the forums about making it more
social. They released a survey and had people make profiles. They
talked about how funds were allocated - but it wasn't all forthcoming
- Marcin complained loudly about all of his time being spent writing
blog posts and pacifying people that he wasn't stealing their money. I
suggested that people be able to pick which projects they funded to
deaf ears. There were suggestions of gamifying, of giving everyone a
personal blog, of different layers of solidity in the documentation
(work being codified more and more as it was proven to work.) None of
this came to pass because it wasn't there at the beginnning. The
morale was sapped very quickly - collaborators were turned away in
droves.
DIYDrones did it right. That is the reason the have thrived and why
they are not all in prison or largely ignored - even if they are on
watchlists. They added a social component in the beginning - blogs
posts, profiles, maps - and they bootstrapped from the beginning. It
started as hobby and then they started selling kits because no good
ones existed. Now Chris Anderson has quit his job as the editor of
Wire to run the company with a high school student from Mexico he met
from the site.
Then there is Alchematter. It is a site being made by one of Marcin's
collorabotors to basically be Instructables that you can fork -
changing the design slightly, the materials - but being able to branch
design and see how it connects - sort of like what James Burke has
talked about with his Knowledge Web (which also hasn't come out) but
for developing technology rather than just exploring it. OSE missed
its opportunity to become the repository for all the worlds Open
Hardware projects. Its real value has been how inspiring the
collection of material in its Wiki is and the idea of being able to
compete with industrial machine companies, public utilities, financial
institutions - regardless of the value of any of its designs. If they
had harnessed that - getting the amateurs involved with the experts -
catologing all the forks, I'm sure the parts of the GVSC that actually
mattered would be made by now.
You can't pitch to people all the time. High minded talk can only
motivate you for so long before it isn't yours anymore - no goal makes
that being controlled worth it, the process affects the product. The
meaning has to come from inside. Ask for help and show them it is fun.
Let people choose the direction of their learning - there is no need
to tell them what is important - that will only reflect your own
opinion. Realize that building skills take years and that there is no
"if we just." That makes you write off the amateurs because they don't
have the skills you need immediately. If you catch yourself thinking
that, realize that time won't stop once the goal has been reached.
There is always something on the path - a reason to change directions.
Rather its - how do we get there, what do we do if we fail, why did we
fail? If you have to convince people that this is the only way to save
the world - its not their world anymore, and its not worth saving.
On 4/25/13, omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org
<omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org> wrote:
> Send omi mailing list submissions to
> omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/omi
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> omi-owner(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of omi digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Test (corey.scher)
> 2. Re: Test (Anthony Di Franco)
> 3. Wut should we do ? (Jonoakland)
> 4. Conversation Today [Was: Design rant & Wut should we do]
> (Morten H. D. Fuglsang)
> 5. Re: Conversation Today [Was: Design rant & Wut should we do]
> (corey.scher)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:27:56 -0700
> From: "corey.scher" <corey.scher(a)riseup.net>
> To: omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> Subject: [omi] Test
> Message-ID: <hor02fejqvewqkl40p7sq9sm.1366835276610(a)email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Just checking to see if this message goes through.?
>
> Greetings!
>
>
> -corey scher
> 510.387-2010
>
> Please excuse the typos from my mobile device.
>
OMI!
Nick (lurker on this list and I believe he visited the shop some weeks
ago), Corey, Anthony and I met this evening at sudoroom. Take-aways:
- The 4 of us were (not surprisingly) very aligned around why open
hardware is important, mainly that it plays an important part in shaping a
more awesome world. To distill this into a form that can be communicated, I
have created this Etherpad where *we will co-create a mission statement
and a list of our values. Add your .02$: https://pad.riseup.net/p/omi*
- There are plenty of ideas for interesting technology that we *can*
build should we choose. *Let us move forward by opening up for concrete
project proposals.* My suggestion is that any proposal should cover both
some intro to *what* it is, *why* it is important, and for *who*.
- A lot of nuts and bolt stuff remain to be answered. Things like, how
many projects can we handle at once? How do we organize our work? Planning?
Status on the shop? *We will meet next Wednesday at 9PM @ sudo room *with
a focus on answering these and talking about how we would like to organize
the shop.
Because* Saturday may 4th is the big Shop Re-make Day!*Remeber, no OMI this
coming Saturday.
Awesome. Attached are random unstructured scribbles from todays session if
you are curious to what was exchanged :)
Make a great day,
Morten
A couple of years ago when I was lurking OSE heavily, they were
talking about how to get more people involved and utilize all of the
people in their network. They failed at this tremendously. A major
reason was that they required most people to come to Missouri to
really be involved and already have the skills they needed. For other
projects they made proposals and had people bid on them to develop,
but this would only produce 1 iteration of the device - which is not
so good.
Marcin refused to alter the GVSC at all. He was convinced that this
set of machines was the only set that should be built - however there
are many synergies to be considered and many patterns that need to be
tried. He ignored that fact that most people live in cities and that
people of flooding in to them at an accelerated pace. He ignored a
large lesson of Pattern Language that much of the concept was based on
- the emotion needs to be there and a sense of ownership has to be
there. Morale is multiplicative. Decision making has to be made at the
right scale.
Around that time they were talk on the forums about making it more
social. They released a survey and had people make profiles. They
talked about how funds were allocated - but it wasn't all forthcoming
- Marcin complained loudly about all of his time being spent writing
blog posts and pacifying people that he wasn't stealing their money. I
suggested that people be able to pick which projects they funded to
deaf ears. There were suggestions of gamifying, of giving everyone a
personal blog, of different layers of solidity in the documentation
(work being codified more and more as it was proven to work.) None of
this came to pass because it wasn't there at the beginnning. The
morale was sapped very quickly - collaborators were turned away in
droves.
DIYDrones did it right. That is the reason the have thrived and why
they are not all in prison or largely ignored - even if they are on
watchlists. They added a social component in the beginning - blogs
posts, profiles, maps - and they bootstrapped from the beginning. It
started as hobby and then they started selling kits because no good
ones existed. Now Chris Anderson has quit his job as the editor of
Wire to run the company with a high school student from Mexico he met
from the site.
Then there is Alchematter. It is a site being made by one of Marcin's
collorabotors to basically be Instructables that you can fork -
changing the design slightly, the materials - but being able to branch
design and see how it connects - sort of like what James Burke has
talked about with his Knowledge Web (which also hasn't come out) but
for developing technology rather than just exploring it. OSE missed
its opportunity to become the repository for all the worlds Open
Hardware projects. Its real value has been how inspiring the
collection of material in its Wiki is and the idea of being able to
compete with industrial machine companies, public utilities, financial
institutions - regardless of the value of any of its designs. If they
had harnessed that - getting the amateurs involved with the experts -
catologing all the forks, I'm sure the parts of the GVSC that actually
mattered would be made by now.
You can't pitch to people all the time. High minded talk can only
motivate you for so long before it isn't yours anymore - no goal makes
that being controlled worth it, the process affects the product. The
meaning has to come from inside. Ask for help and show them it is fun.
Let people choose the direction of their learning - there is no need
to tell them what is important - that will only reflect your own
opinion. Realize that building skills take years and that there is no
"if we just." That makes you write off the amateurs because they don't
have the skills you need immediately. If you catch yourself thinking
that, realize that time won't stop once the goal has been reached.
There is always something on the path - a reason to change directions.
Rather its - how do we get there, what do we do if we fail, why did we
fail? If you have to convince people that this is the only way to save
the world - its not their world anymore, and its not worth saving.
On 4/25/13, omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org
<omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org> wrote:
> Send omi mailing list submissions to
> omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/omi
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> omi-owner(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of omi digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Test (corey.scher)
> 2. Re: Test (Anthony Di Franco)
> 3. Wut should we do ? (Jonoakland)
> 4. Conversation Today [Was: Design rant & Wut should we do]
> (Morten H. D. Fuglsang)
> 5. Re: Conversation Today [Was: Design rant & Wut should we do]
> (corey.scher)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:27:56 -0700
> From: "corey.scher" <corey.scher(a)riseup.net>
> To: omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> Subject: [omi] Test
> Message-ID: <hor02fejqvewqkl40p7sq9sm.1366835276610(a)email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Just checking to see if this message goes through.?
>
> Greetings!
>
>
> -corey scher
> 510.387-2010
>
> Please excuse the typos from my mobile device.
>
Beautiful framework! See yall tonight.
-corey scher
510.387-2010
Please excuse the typos from my mobile device.
-------- Original message --------
From: "Morten H. D. Fuglsang" <vallebo(a)gmail.com>
Date: 04/25/2013 10:18 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
Subject: [omi] Conversation Today [Was: Design rant & Wut should we do]
Hi all,
To follow up on these weeks conversations on this list, we are meeting today at 7pm @ sudo room. Not everyone is able to be present today, which is fine - this is an ongoing conversation, and I am happy to take responsibility that everyone is and feels included, and that it is documented and fed forward.
Suggested framing for the conversation:
Quickfire, "Why are you part of OMI?"
What are the current needs of ourselves, the communities around us, and the world, in terms of technology and in relation to basic needs (~energy/water/food/housing/exploration & manufacturing)? What open technologies do we believe are important to develop (and/or manufacture) to help solve these needs? What role do we want OMI as an organization to play in this? (~why does OMI exist)
Which open technologies etc. are each of us inspired to develop and build, right now? What are the overlaps in relation to the needs we see? Which are low hanging fruit in terms of demand on our resources and level of impact?
~Decisions.
How do we want to work (together) in OMI?
Infrastructure, access, space
Methodology/process
Documentation
Actionplanning
Short-term timeline.
Work groups, workflow.
Documentation strategy.
Practical in relation to space (set up, paying of electricity bill, ...)
Etc.
See some of you tonight!
:) M
=====
Ps. Some of my thoughts on exiting things to develop
* Lots of people are going into small-scale urban agriculture, and some even want to scale more (ie. occupy the farm)
** Rainwater/Grey water systems to feed into these while solving sewage issues would be interesting to work with.
** There are to my knowledge no open rototillers (except for OSE's, but its a mod for the tractor, so a bigger more complex piece). I think both could be interesting too.
* We all use gas for heating our water here in east bay (most of us anyway). Totally unnecessary with all the sun in CA! Thermal solar panels are easy to build. Hooking up to old/used insulated tanks, and using a little pump/making the system passive by placing tank above, is very doable. Potentially portable too. There is significant documentation on this online already.
* Portable windmills. Documentation online seems to be spread out, but it should be possibly to pool together resources and create some kickass simply ones and improving documentation.
Hi all,
To follow up on these weeks conversations on this list, we are meeting
today at 7pm @ sudo room. Not everyone is able to be present today, which
is fine - this is an ongoing conversation, and I am happy to take
responsibility that everyone is and feels included, and that it is
documented and fed forward.
Suggested framing for the conversation:
- Quickfire, "Why are you part of OMI?"
- What are the current needs of ourselves, the communities around us,
and the world, in terms of technology and in relation to basic needs
(~energy/water/food/housing/exploration & manufacturing)? What open
technologies do we believe are important to develop (and/or manufacture) to
help solve these needs? What role do we want OMI as an organization to play
in this? (~why does OMI exist)
- Which open technologies etc. are each of us inspired to develop and
build, right now? What are the overlaps in relation to the needs we
see? Which are low hanging fruit in terms of demand on our resources and
level of impact?
- ~Decisions.
- How do we want to work (together) in OMI?
- Infrastructure, access, space
- Methodology/process
- Documentation
- Actionplanning
- Short-term timeline.
- Work groups, workflow.
- Documentation strategy.
- Practical in relation to space (set up, paying of electricity bill,
...)
- Etc.
See some of you tonight!
:) M
=====
Ps. Some of my thoughts on exiting things to develop
* Lots of people are going into small-scale urban agriculture, and some
even want to scale more (ie. occupy the farm)
** Rainwater/Grey water systems to feed into these while solving sewage
issues would be interesting to work with.
** There are to my knowledge no open rototillers (except for OSE's, but its
a mod for the tractor, so a bigger more complex piece). I think both could
be interesting too.
* We all use gas for heating our water here in east bay (most of us
anyway). Totally unnecessary with all the sun in CA! Thermal solar panels
are easy to build. Hooking up to old/used insulated tanks, and using a
little pump/making the system passive by placing tank above, is very
doable. Potentially portable too. There is significant documentation on
this online already.
* Portable windmills. Documentation online seems to be spread out, but it
should be possibly to pool together resources and create some kickass
simply ones and improving documentation.
Hello! I am an artist recently moved to Oakland with several fun projects
on hand, including a piece for Burning Man. I've been going around to
various workshops and hacker spaces to meet other artists and to look for a
space to work. Several people have recommended your place as a wonderful
haven of madness. What is the best way to meet with y'all? Can I just show
up and walk around? Is there meetings I could come to?
Happy Creating,
Nathan
www.nathankandus.com
My Burn project:
http://www.nathankandus.com/Chaotic_Affair2.html
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org> wrote:
> Send omi mailing list submissions to
> omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/omi
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> omi-owner(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of omi digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Tomorrow! (Hol Gaskill)
> 2. Re: Tomorrow! (Anthony Di Franco)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 20:30:55 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Hol Gaskill <hol(a)gaskill.com>
> To: vallebo(a)gmail.com
> Cc: omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> Subject: Re: [omi] Tomorrow!
> Message-ID: <1004961494.90779.1364934655399.JavaMail.mail@webmail06>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> How did saturday/sunday go?
>
> Cheers,
> Hol
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:35:17 -0700
> From: Anthony Di Franco <di.franco(a)gmail.com>
> To: hol(a)gaskill.com
> Cc: omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> Subject: Re: [omi] Tomorrow!
> Message-ID:
> <CAOJkv1o7zGrUqStPHoZSW=
> MJzPoG7s91pZ_a2obT5hjJynX4tg(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Not really.
> On Apr 2, 2013 1:30 PM, "Hol Gaskill" <hol(a)gaskill.com> wrote:
>
> > How did saturday/sunday go?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Hol
> > _______________________________________________
> > omi mailing list
> > omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/omi
> >
>
I'm going to go by and plug sudo room and OMI and see if any people with
engine-making expertise want to get rapid and open-source with their craft,
and solicit help for an idea I want to pursue.
Anyone want to join?
Heading to OMI afterwards.
Chabot College <http://www.chabotcollege.edu/about/CampusMap.asp> Bldg
1500. 25555
Hesperian Blvd Hayward, CA 94545
Telephone 510-723-6600
Windmills.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 1:32 PM, <omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org> wrote:
> Send omi mailing list submissions to
> omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/omi
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> omi-request(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> omi-owner(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of omi digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: hydraulics (Morten H. D. Fuglsang)
> 2. Re: hydraulics (Morten H. D. Fuglsang)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:28:30 -0700
> From: "Morten H. D. Fuglsang" <vallebo(a)gmail.com>
> To: di.franco(a)aya.yale.edu
> Cc: "omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <omi(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Subject: Re: [omi] hydraulics
> Message-ID:
> <
> CALbJKfO9byjnqWcvOH-dTpQOr+tSpxp5mpH7goXaCvuRwozXLA(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hol, awesome! We definitely need more expertise in the area of hydraulics.
> And good links too, thanks to both of ye.
>
> I was lurking the OSE forums a bit the other day. I found something that
> scared me a bit:
>
> http://forum.opensourceecology.org/discussion/1004/why-is-ose-so-quiet-late…
> Some quotes:
>
> *Yoonseo, OSE team*
> *Just want to clear things up with the facts about what's happening with
> OSE. First and foremost, everyone on-site left OSE after the huge conflict
> year-end 2012 between the team and Marcin.*
> *
> *
>
> *
> Brianna, OSE team
> *
>
> *
> Lies about the quality of the products. The brick press produced shit for
> bricks. They didn't have one flat surface on them. I personally built 4 of
> these, which were all shipped out without proper testing. One was shipped
> out a year after it was supposed to be. The power cube worked for a week AT
> THE LONGEST
>
> *
>
> *
> Ryan, random dude.
> *
>
> *
> I have a collective of makers that just received a space grant in upstate
> NY that are making a list of first projects to focus on, and the OSE
> Liberator and CEB press are near the top of the list. Hearing that the
> Powercube design doesn't hold up to use and the CEB press being almost
> useless scare the heck out of us though. Does anyone on here know who
> purchased these preorders, or anyone that is using actively any iterations
> of these pieces? I'd love to hear about their experiences.
>
> *
>
> *
> Yoonseo, OSE team:
> Hey Ryan, it's actually not so bad. OSE has been doing subpar builds
> primarily due to haste and lack of care from Marcin, but the general
> mechanisms (at least for the ceb press and powercube) are sound- we
> couldn't have done the hablab/workshop without it. To be clear- the CEB
> Press and Powercube work. Now the only issue is that you have to use good
> materials and produce them properly (instead of the bad stuff that broke on
> us over and over).
>
> The inexpensive surplus engines for the Powercube have frequently caused
> problems due to breaking magnetos; a bunch of the solenoids broke too.
> Shoddy commercial parts! So on the powercube side, as long as you get
> engines with reliable accessories, and long-life solenoids, everything
> should be fine. Remember to seal the threaded hydraulic connections and
> tighten sufficiently- hydraulic leaks are bad! Also, I think the most
> difficult part of the powercube production for you will be sealing and
> installing the ports on the gasoline and hydraulic fluid reservoirs. Make
> sure you get this done right else you'll get gas/hyd fluid leaks all over
> the place. When I was at FeF there's mostly been problems with hydraulic
> fluid leaking due to improperly sealed connections. No explosions though,
> heh.
>
> Now the CEB Press can easily have issues surrounding its compression
> chamber. If you do not use thick enough steel and insufficiently reinforce
> the compression walls, you will get bending and that will get you curved
> bricks. No good. Also the second thing was that the ejection surface must
> be parallel or subsequent surfaces must be scaled in the proper direction.
> Otherwise you will get the bottom of your bricks sliced by about 1/4" as it
> gets ejected. Also make sure that the primary cylinder is high enough so
> that the pressing surface can actually get to the ejection surface
> (otherwise you gonna get some more bottom-slicing action). I think those
> were the major issues. Make sure you put a pressure relief valve on there
> eh.
>
> Hope that helps! -Yoonseo
>
> *
>
>
> My conclusions:
> * I predict OSE wont last much longer, and will ta some point stop being
> the center of a lot of this open hardware infrastructure stuff. Groups will
> fork it and improve upon the designs.
> * hence thre is no need for us to associate ourselves closely with and
> limit ourselves by, OSE. In terms of how we build and what we build.
> Instead, it makes more sense for me to think of us as forking OSE.
> * The CEB press can work if we use common sense and confirm the design and
> do it very properly. If not, it wont work as well. We should not trust the
> OSE plans and recommendations too much.
>
>
>
>
> Make a great day,
> Morten H. D. Fuglsang
> US: +1 415 799 6931 // skype: FlyvendeHest
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Anthony Di Franco <di.franco(a)gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > See also
> https://www.surpluscenter.com/hydraulic.asp?catname=hydraulicfor all your
> cheapness in hydraulics needs.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Hol Gaskill <hol(a)gaskill.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Folks,
> >>
> >> I haven't been around much for fabrication of the frame and probably
> >> won't be there on saturday build days at least until mid june, but I
> would
> >> like to help with the implementation of the hydraulics system. All the
> >> designs I've seen are centered around the powercube which is powered by
> a
> >> briggs and stratton engine. For simplicity and flexibility, I propose
> >> using an electric pump either 12VDC or 120VAC, or a standard mount and
> >> coupler so we could swap them out. It could still be powered by a
> >> generator for remote applications, or ideally from solar/batteries. I
> just
> >> see the OSE powercube as being a little more complex than we might
> prefer
> >> moving forward, and we can still get the same force even if we go to a
> >> lower power pump, the machine would just operate more slowly.
> >>
> >>
> >> power unit:
> >>
> >>
> http://www.zorotools.com/g/00034368/k-G0711252?utm_source=google_shopping&u…
> >>
> >> valve example (just a cheap one...not researched)
> >> http://www.coastpneumatics.com/valve-3quarter.html
> >>
> >> does anyone know the force/pressure we need for the rams?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> hol
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> >> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/omi
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > omi mailing list
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> >
> >
>
