Meeting minutes are also archived here:
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Mesh/21_February_2013
=Attendees=
Mark, Juul, Jenny, Bill, Miguel, Dres
=Debrief from Saturday's field trip=
*Replaced router at the Bikery in San Antonio (1) and Matt's house in
Fruitvale (2)
*Installed new router at the Bikery's second location (in the same building
as LOLspace) (3)
*Scoped out the rooftop situation at the LOL/SOL building
=Research=
*Bill did [[
http://lists.sudoroom.org/pipermail/mesh/2013-February/000017.html research
on OLSR / routing protocols]
*Juul did [
http://lists.sudoroom.org/pipermail/mesh/2013-February/000021.html research
on what's needed to do rooftop tests]
=Equipment Needs=
*Binoculars w/ built-in compass
*Normal compasses if the above can't be procured
*Tripods for mounting antennas
*Wifi USB dongles
*Wifi measuring device (from Ubiquiti)
*Weather-resistent enclosures
*Walkie talkies!
=Ideas=
*Wifi-based microwave interference detector
*Ham certification gives you some privileges on the wifi frequencies (up to
50 watts!?)
*Alameda island mesh network attempt:
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.network.wireless.alameda
*We should assess wifi rane in crappy weather conditions
*Schools, libraries, city buildings
=Needs Assessment=
*How much equipment can we procure from donations?
*DD-WRT and OpenWRT compliance with various kinds of routers
=Sudo Room Inventory=
*OpenMesh MR500
*1 Linksys WRT54GL v.1.1 (4 MB)
*2 Linksys WAP54G v.3.1 (2 MB)
=Action Items=
*Research on outdoor weatherproof equipment
**Jenny will talk to Commotion folks
*Work on OpenITP proposal.
*Work on proposal for OpenOakland / City of Oakland.
---------
Jenny
http://jennyryan.nethttp://thepyre.orghttp://thevirtualcampfire.orghttp://technomadic.tumblr.com
`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
"Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
-Laurie Anderson
"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it."
-Hannah Arendt
"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
-Stéphane Mallarmé
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
I chatted in #OTI today re: weatherproof equipment. OTI (Open Technology
Institute) is the org supporting the Commotion project. It was suggested
that more support could be garnered through joining the commotion-dev
mailing list: https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/commotion-dev
-------------------------------------------
(12:32:35 PM) tunabananas1: I am seeking suggestions for outdoor
weatherproof equipment for mesh setups! ping jrbaldwin1
(12:42:52 PM) andygunn: tunabananas1: What info do you need about mesh
equipment?
(12:43:15 PM) andygunn: We usually use Ubiquiti equipment, since it is our
development platform for Commotion stuff
(12:52:54 PM) tunabananas1: andygunn: so in the wild ubiquiti APs need no
additional weatherproofing?
(12:53:16 PM) andygunn: Nope. If you use the outdoor rated equipment from
Ubiquiti, they are fine
(12:53:27 PM) andygunn: Most of their gear is outdoor, they only have a few
things that are indoor
(12:53:36 PM) andygunn: Such as some switches, routers, a few access points
(12:53:54 PM) andygunn: All PicoStations, Rockets, Nano_ units are outdoor
rated
(12:54:21 PM) andygunn: As long as outdoor rated Ethernet cable is used as
well, most installs are fairly weatherproof
(12:54:46 PM) andygunn: In fact, additional weatherproofing (such as mastic
or caulk) can cause issues with water ingress
(12:56:07 PM) andygunn: One caveat: Ubiquiti Bullet equipment may require
additional weatherproofing
(12:56:07 PM) tunabananas1: good to know! i will share with the 510pen team
(12:56:17 PM) andygunn: depending on the antenna they are attached to
(12:56:27 PM) andygunn: the N-type connector isn't 100% waterproof
(12:56:35 PM) andygunn: Though it is pretty good
(12:57:31 PM) andygunn: Sure. Who is the 510pen team?
(12:57:52 PM) andygunn: You can put them in contact with me directly if you
want
(12:58:50 PM) tunabananas1: 510pen is an East Bay (SFBay) mesh network
project that began in 2009
(12:59:04 PM) andygunn: Cool, good to know.
(12:59:26 PM) tunabananas1: but they didn't secure funding and kinda
stalled in 2011
(12:59:50 PM) andygunn: Word. That would be a problem.
(01:00:14 PM) tunabananas1: since i started interning with oti/tidepools
i've been helping to resuscitate it, so i'm doing a lot of the comms /
project management - personally less on the technical side of things
(01:00:47 PM) tunabananas1: https://510pen.org &&
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Mesh
(01:01:30 PM) tunabananas1: ah, i see legind is in here. he's part of the
crew. o/
(01:02:00 PM) andygunn: I will check out those sites. Glad to hear there is
a "new" network in the works!
(01:02:33 PM) tunabananas1: yeah! mesh the planet!
(01:03:52 PM) tunabananas1: and thanks for your advice. there's definitely
interest in working with the commotion
(01:03:54 PM) tunabananas1: firmware*
(01:04:13 PM) andygunn: Excellent. Folks should hop on the Commotion Dev
list if they have questions about implementation
(01:04:27 PM) andygunn: Do you need the link?
(01:06:05 PM) tunabananas1:
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/commotion-dev cc legind
(01:06:20 PM) andygunn: Yep, that's it.
(01:06:23 PM) andygunn: Thanks!
(01:07:34 PM) tunabananas1: so we are planning to do some rooftop testing
soon before the weather gets too nice
(01:08:08 PM) tunabananas1: but in crappy conditions what's the range of a
directional ubiquiti antenna
(01:08:09 PM) tunabananas1: ?
(01:08:38 PM) tunabananas1: based on your experience...
(01:08:39 PM) andygunn: Depends on the Antenna
(01:08:51 PM) tunabananas1: DotA
(01:08:58 PM) grady: lol
(01:09:09 PM) andygunn: If you are using a NanoStation M2, about a mile
(01:09:16 PM) andygunn: also depends on interference
(01:09:21 PM) grady: I've found the range on picos goes way down in bad
weather
(01:09:37 PM) andygunn: Yes, omnidirectional units have much less range
(01:09:44 PM) andygunn: about 1000 feet outdoors in clear weather
(01:09:57 PM) andygunn: Also, pure RF range is deceptive
(01:10:11 PM) andygunn: Since low signal may be fine if there is no
interference
(01:10:20 PM) andygunn: but in the presence of interference, your link
quality will go in the crapper
(01:10:32 PM) hawkinsw-laptop: is anyone on a college campus that can help
me with access to jstor?
(01:10:52 PM) andygunn: So for critical links over a long distance, I
recommend using 5GHz equipment
(01:11:05 PM) andygunn: It can bridge to the mesh via Ethernet
(01:11:14 PM) andygunn: With some extra configuration
(01:12:05 PM) andygunn: There is also a question of TCP ack round-trip time
with long links, that I'm not sure is implemented in mesh firmware yet
(01:12:14 PM) andygunn: I was going to start a thread on Commotion Dev
about it
(01:14:29 PM) areynold: I can almost guarantee that Ben is going to be your
best bet in getting that question answered
(01:14:55 PM) tunabananas1: what would the distance range be on 5ghz
equipment?
(01:15:04 PM) andygunn: DotA
(01:15:08 PM) tunabananas1: lol
(01:15:24 PM) andygunn: But for a NanoStation, again a mile or so, maybe
further
(01:15:39 PM) andygunn: If you have very long links there are various
dishes that are made for longer distances
(01:16:08 PM) andygunn: http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#nanobridgem
(01:16:14 PM) andygunn: http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#airgrid
(01:16:31 PM) andygunn: These and other pieces of equipment are more geared
towards point-to-point setups
(01:16:50 PM) andygunn: Or for receiving a more powerful signal from
further away, such as in a "cell tower" style install
(01:16:59 PM) andygunn: Also called Point-to-Multipoint
(01:19:41 PM) grady: I sat in on a two-hour long lecture on setting up
ubiquiti networks at the CTS in Tunis
(01:19:56 PM) grady: I can dig up the notes and send them to you tunabananas
(01:20:17 PM) tunabananas1: that'd be great, grady, thanks! i'm
jenny(a)thepyre.org
(01:20:50 PM) andygunn: Grady - please share that with the field and tech
teams as well
(01:21:03 PM) grady: sure no problem
(01:21:07 PM) andygunn: Thanks
(01:21:30 PM) grady: also, I know a distributor that gives pretty sweet
discounts to non-profits
(01:22:46 PM) andygunn: Distributor of what? Wireless equipment?
(01:22:57 PM) grady: yeah, mostly ubiquiti
(01:23:13 PM) andygunn: Which vendor?
(01:23:20 PM) grady: streakwave
(01:23:39 PM) andygunn: Yea, we don't have an account with them yet, but
probably should
(01:23:48 PM) tunabananas1: haha, wasn't going to mention it but yeah,
equipment is pricey. we're thinking of applying for openitp funding. we're
not a nonprofit, just an amorphous grassroots group atm.
(01:24:46 PM) andygunn: Yep - some of the equipment is pricey, but you
should see the prices for proprietary mesh equipment
(01:25:21 PM) andygunn: It's hilarious:
https://www.tessco.com/products/displayHierarchySkus.do?groupId=595&subgrou…
Hi, who's coming to the mesh meetup?
I'm gonna drop by 5mof on my way back to the east bay, but assuming some
folks will be around, i'll head to sudoroom w/ a dual-band mesh router that
we can install there (or just take apart if we prefer :)
--mark B.
We can swing by later in a car to transport them, but unmounting at night
might be difficult..
On Feb 21, 2013 6:14 PM, "Jenny Ryan" <jenny(a)thepyre.org> wrote:
> We can swing by later in a car to transport them, but unmounting at night
> might be difficult..
> On Feb 21, 2013 4:36 PM, "Miguel Vargas" <unroar(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Let me know if anybody can come by my place any time before the meeting
>> and help me with unmounting and transporting the 3 satellite dishes. I'm
>> about a mile from sudoroom near Fairyland.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Marc Juul <marcjc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Miguel Vargas <unroar(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Yea, I am going to need help getting them over there. They need to be
>>> > unmounted from their current locations and it will be a lot of stuff to
>>> > carry. I'm only about a mile from sudoroom and I'm generally available,
>>> > let's try to coordinate this week.
>>>
>>> Sounds good.
>>>
>>> > The usb stick seems like a good simple solution. We could start
>>> looking at
>>> > other designs if we end up needing more performance.
>>>
>>> Yeah. Let's try usb sticks first. Jake suggested that we should try to
>>> test the setup during rain / fog, since water blocks 2.4 ghz. So we
>>> should get this set up as soon as possible (before it stops raining)
>>> or we may get into a situation where we spend the summer setting up
>>> rooftop connections, only to have them all fail when it starts raining
>>> again.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marc
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mesh mailing list
>> mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>
>>
I want to start doing some experiments with roof to roof wifi.
I think it would be a worthwhile to get two portable satellite
antennas with tripods and see what we can get out of them.
With such a minor investment in equipment we will be able test whether
two rooftop locations can connect to each other before we go out and
buy dedicated equipment for installation.
The small direct tv dishes can be had for $15 to $25 on craigslist.
I found the following on craigslist for $35:
*Two satellite dish tripods
*Alignment compass
*Two small satellite dishes
The problem is that it's spread over two locations, one in Hayward and
one in Milpitas.
Are any of you going near Milpitas and/or Hayward this week and would
you have time to pick this up? If not, I can probably go on a field
trip.
If we get this stuff, then we would additionally need:
*Two sets of binoculars (we only need to borrow them)
*One more compass
*Two wifi usb adapters or smaller wifi to ethernet adapters
What would be really amazing is two sets of binoculars with built-in
compasses, but we can do without.
--
Marc Juul
Apologies for lateness!
=Attendees=
*Jenny, Marc Juul, Mark B, Bill, Eno
= Introduction =
*Applying for funding from OpenITP: https://pad.riseup.net/p/510penITPapp
*Wikipedia has some good info [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_networks here].
*See also: Mesh Projects Directory -
http://wiki.tidepools.co/view/Mesh_Directory
= Inventory =
== at sudo room ==
*Lots of coaxial cable.
*Some wireless routers that need to be checked for openwrt support.
*2 linksys routers which may be b0rked
== juul ==
*One Motorola C155 with osmocom-bb
*One USRP 1 software defined radio
:[https://www.ettus.com/product/details/WBX WBX 50-2200 Mhz rx/tx]
:[https://www.ettus.com/product/details/RFX2400 RFX2400 2.3-2.9 Ghz rx/tx]
== mark ==
*Three openwrt routers from [http://www.open-mesh.com/open-mesh.com].
= hardware =
== RONJA laser link ==
[http://ronja.twibright.com/ The RONJA project] has 1.4 km range and 10
mbps full duplex.
Material costs are about $100, but it's not clear if that is per node or
per link (per two nodes).
It does not use off-the-shelf hardware, so construction requires some work.
== wifi routers ==
*Ubiquity nanostation
*Ubiquity picostation
*raspberry pi (or similar) + usb wifi adapters such as the [
http://dx.com/s/2000mW 2000 mW $20 chinese models] or even just [
http://dx.com/s/500mw 500 mW $20 chinese models]
== antennas ==
*[
http://dx.com/p/2-4ghz-100w-18dbi[http://dx.com/p/2-4ghz-100w-18dbi-directi…
dBi
-directional-high-gain-18-unit-antenna-for-wifi-wireless-network-sma-34759
18 dBi for $18] including shipping.
=== parabolic ==
[http://www.provantage.com/premiertek-ant-grid-24dbi~4PREK014.htm 24 dBi
for $26.40] expensive shipping when ordering only one though.
= Firmware and routing algorithms =
*Should we use off the shelf firmware, how should we r00t our r0uters?
*Commotion wireless uses OLSR, but the current nodes in the 510pen network
use the batman-advanced.
*Other projects like Project Byzantium (targetting laptops) use the Babel
protocol.
*Performance Evaluation of BATMAN, DSR, OLSR Routing Protocols - A Review
Sandhu and Sharma 2012:
http://www.ijetae.com/files/Volume2Issue1/IJETAE_0112_35.pdf
: Maximum Number of nodes with Maximum Mobility: OLSR > BATMAN > DSR
: Maximum Number of nodes with Maximum Packet length: OLSR > DSR >
BATMAN
'''Currently, 510pen uses NG firmware extending OpenWRT with batman-adv'''
*OLSRD Configuration & Management:
https://code.commotionwireless.net/projecthttp://www.olsr.org/?q=node/13s/c…
= Action Items =
*Bill will look into OLSR and routing generally
*Saturday node-repair field trip
**jenny will ping beau
*Bring things to set up a node at sudo room next week!
**jenny will ping mark b :P
Notes archived here: http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Mesh/14_February_2013
--------
Jenny
http://jennyryan.nethttp://thepyre.orghttp://thevirtualcampfire.orghttp://technomadic.tumblr.com
`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
"Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
-Laurie Anderson
"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it."
-Hannah Arendt
"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
-Stéphane Mallarmé
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
What kind of mesh-related equipment do you have lying around that you
are willing to donate to the mesh project?
Things we need:
*wifi usb adapters
*wifi antennas or satellite dish antennas
*antenna mounting gear
*cable: usb, ethernet, coaxial and 110 vac cable.
*access points and routers that are compatible with open-wrt
*working laptops (these can be used as nodes and for testing)
*switches of at least 100 mbit speed
*old android phones
Just reply to this mail with what you have or can get.
I'll go first. I have:
*A roll of coaxial cable of unspecified length.
*A PCMCIA 802.11b wifi card with external antenna hookup.
--
Marc Juul
Howdy, if you'd like to join us in some mesh network troubleshooting +
surveying in East Oakland tomorrow, we'll be meeting up at The Bikery
(International @ 23rd Ave) at 11:30am! Hope to see you there,
--mark B.
Pretty useful hardware suggestions I got from #olsr on freenode:
02:27 < soma> generally almost everything that bases on ar71xx is
probably the best hardware for openwrt (good cpu/ram and good ath9k wifi
driver)
02:27 < legind> I've heard that having 2 cpu cores is preferable in mesh
routing
02:28 < soma> for indoor there are a lot of options where some tp-links
are quite cheap. e.g. wr1043nd or wdr3600. there are also cheaper ones
like wr703 or wr741, but they only have 4MB flash. thats enough, but i
personally wouldn't want them because restricted space in flash is uncool
02:28 < soma> for outdoors ubiquiti stuff is my favorite
02:28 < soma> why 2 cores?
02:29 < soma> better 2 wifi interfaces
02:32 < legind> one core handles the mesh network and one for internal lan
02:33 < legind> thanks for the suggestions soma
02:34 < soma> that depens on your usecase then. maybe thats good if you
want to route traffic from e.g. lan to wan at 1gbps all the time, then
it could make sense. but for all normal needs 1 core is imo enough and i
also think platforms with 2 cores are just starting to come out
