Don't micro-manage creativity. Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems right now; this will not always be true. Assume good faith. This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions are: What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very soon. What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for network devices, without intractable costs. What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are convenient and already appropriate for setting up network devices (fast, easy) and (b) places that allow for integrating network devices into the heating/cooling systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require coordination, approval, and implementation with potential extra costs). What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity. In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon as possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems. // Matt On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan &lt;dkeenan44(a)gmail.com <mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com>> wrote: (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into the basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.) On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan &lt;dkeenan44(a)gmail.com <mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com>> wrote: Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the blower from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap. On the west side, there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus windows above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the barr-room bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool air (without a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could pull cool air from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent heat from the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces use, or vent heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent perhaps to that lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C from the compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of the time. In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go - needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC. It's a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help sorting out, and I would really love it if we could. As others have stated, we need a working group just for the basement and space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another equally pressing aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may be a good idea to set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but I am open to suggestions about how best to comprise this. Love David On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan &lt;dkeenan44(a)gmail.com <mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi all, Again I am /super/ psyched that we are tackling where to rack servers and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort into this. Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use others' space and shared space, I feel the only real missing piece in the discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much /every/ member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any other group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building - especially for their very own space which they have already been promised are technically in possession of. /For sure/, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible place things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack should /not/ go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in the building, I think that's a conversation that should include others in the building too, not just sudoers, because it affects others' planning and use of space. The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any build-out, and all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC as a whole. This doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings - its simply a way to try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert with other groups in the space. For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack into what is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace), that particular conversation should be had with that _group_ from the get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the building with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take place /only/ on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or /only/ with other sudoers (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a lot of work - apparently, many people can only envision as a place for garbage, or to get to utility panels. Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does not mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage here compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and /time/ to do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the building. I mean, Backspace has far more intense permitting and structural issues to address - we're getting architectural drawings (I had the architect over yesterday partly for this reason), and planning it out thoughtfully - this is not going to happen in one week or even one month. Also, Backspacers are a much smaller, newer group than Sudo, in which almost everyone has day jobs and simply can't be there alla the time - they are not on sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at least any more than all of sudo should be on backspace's list. For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers / bodyworkers, in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah. So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be discussed extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying to any group wanting to build out in another group's space. As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal discussions about how articulate their model, including how best to build out, refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if you blow away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a different use, you are also potentially actually talking about removing an individual from Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think it might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into backspace in that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there that you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I mean here. Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also be had with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the omnilogistics list), especially if you see the servers as serving the entire building, not just sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too - easily enough done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.) Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine sudo will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on things, install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should be in a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for permitting issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The electrical panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never entered unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of power and solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning re: circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that, and then the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for safety's sake if nothing else. My 2c. Best, David On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo &lt;luis.murillo.plos(a)gmail.com <mailto:luis.murillo.plos@gmail.com>> wrote: Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some errands/TCB will swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-) On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody &lt;somebody(a)riseup.net <mailto:somebody@riseup.net>> wrote: Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh list was not linked from the first email that I sent out. Thx! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700 From: hol(a)gaskill.com <mailto:hol@gaskill.com> To: David Keenan &lt;dkeenan44(a)gmail.com <mailto:dkeenan44@gmail.com>> CC: sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org> for the servers. i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx are good for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot things may be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool air and letting convection do the work. if there's no objection, we could set up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run coax to a more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so i'll be around to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic infrastructure cheers On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote: space! I definitely as you can see by collective is groundfloor that space. Backspace and Sarah. an attraction for of fans plus almost takes up Backspace, Sudo wont need to get essentially non-shared have to locations, like Sudo particular location could work. for going on 20 years building for a lot be near the main near the street. excellent ventilation the furnaces are in into that venting to on energy. Also, - the compressor green solution that building. &lt;somebody(a)riseup.net <mailto:somebody@riseup.net>> wrote: building, and so far the room by the bar. because the air because it is where the space, we will have group and the group idea at our to build: would do, I believe. perhaps we should High temperature and of this process (Daniel). is found at: https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot is found at: > https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot > Thx! > _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss > mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org> > _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss > mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>> _______________________________________________ mesh mailing list mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:mesh@lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh _______________________________________________ mesh mailing list mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:mesh@lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss