Hi! I do not agree with it at all! :-) It never goes like this. You are mixing cause and consequence. It is not networks you are interested in, but people. So I would do a diagram where it would be: 1.) few individuals get interested in mesh 2.) they get together and start hack the technology 3.) they want to do something with it, they deploy few nodes where they have access to 4.) one of them is part of a community in need and uses the technology to address that need there, this is often the only place where there is real mesh for long time 5.) more people find the idea interesting, deploy satellite nodes (not really connected wirelessly) 6.) some of those nodes connect wirelessly, some of those nodes are deployed in the place where there is no Internet connectivity so a neighbor is sought to connect to 7.) you start experimenting with long distance links 8.) there is a community in rural areas in need 9.) you connect them with a long link, a mesh network starts there 10.) you start doing a backbone of long links everywhere, nodes which are not deployed randomly where people have interest, but are designed where it would be the best for the network as a whole Mitar

Somewhere in there is also using mesh to cover temporary events, like festivals and such.

I would disagree. Knowing the technology is important, and required for long term sustainability of the network, but at this step is not yet

If there is their Internet connection, then they fix it. If they share

Hi!

Maybe the difference is motivation why people participate in the first place? In Slovenia, main motivation is for most people sharing of Internet connectivity with others - they are not utilizing it fully, so they want to share it. For them is easier to share the connection than

it is easier for them to participate. The second group of people are people who need Internet access, so again they have some reason for using it, even if it might be a black box for them. It works, this is good enough for most of them. But then some start learning and hacking and want to learn more.

What would you say is the main reason why people participate in Byzantium project? Because they have personal need they want to address? Or because they want to do something for others? Or because they want to learn something?

Hi! All these issues we addressed by using VPN tunnels from nodes to connect all nodes first together into a common network, and then Internet access is a network-wide service. Public IP of host's Internet connection is not visible. As I said, we made things easy. People do not have to know how to protect their sharing of Internet, we designed that once and then can just use it (they can of course also hack further on it, but this is not a requirement for you to participate), so that they can then easily share Internet. I agree with you, if you leave things complicated, then people will want to learn first technology to be able to protect themselves and understand better the risks. But if you develop technology in a way that the risks are low, then they do not feel anymore that is necessary and they are still willing to participate. That's clients issue. Not hosts issue (the person who would host an open AP). We should educate clients as well, they should not trust any network anyway. The question is how to make many hosts to participate. You are saying by teaching them how technology works. I am saying by making technology so easy and safe, that they do not have to learn that. (But are of course very much encouraged to do it, if they want, but it should not be a requirement.) That's why you put a sticker on the black box which says "use me" and you put SSID into the air which says "use me". OK, emergencies, unrest, disaster preparation are definitely a very different use cases than what we are trying to address primarily in Slovenia. Probably you really want and need to understand technology when you want to deploy it in such situations. But for home use, for casual browsing, I would argue that this might not be necessary (but of course welcoming and empowering). Mitar -- http://mitar.tnode.com/ https://twitter.com/mitar_m _______________________________________________ mesh mailing list mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh

Hey all, Haven't caught up entirely on this thread, but looking forward to re-reading shortly. I felt compelled to finish the updates to see what ya'll think of my depiction of a simplified and abstract representation of the overall pattern of network development / growth, this time paralleled with the community development that propels the growth. (I may switch Right with Left also btw) See attached. // Matt On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Mitar <mitar(a)tnode.com> wrote: