[sudo-discuss] Re: E-Waste Plan

I will definitely make the meeting tomorrow night hybrid. And I don't think we'll make any irreversible decisions, so no one who misses it will be left behind. *Just join at the usual address tomorrow, Monday February 21st at 8:30 PM: https://meet.waag.org/turtlesturtlesturtles <https://meet.waag.org/turtlesturtlesturtles>* I agree that it's useful to recognize the sensitivity of this issue, and I agree that we can definitely take some big bites out of the problem right away without undermining anyone's vision. *Andrew R Gross, (he/him)* 412.657.5332 - shrad.org <http://www.shrad.org> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 1:09 PM David Keenan &lt;dkeenan44(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Just wanted to say this thread feels like a really central and helpful > group discussion, and it’s great to see this visioning around sudo, > hackerspaces, and their relation between stuff and humans. > > A meeting to discuss more sounds good and will do my best to be > available, though I can’t yet confirm :/ Might it be possible to schedule a > virtual meeting, which might make it easier for folks given short notice? > > I also wanted to acknowledge that there are some deep feelings around > this topic and so we should all make an extra hard effort to *not* take > different views personally and to remember that everyone probably shares > the same ultimate goal of how to make sudo more inviting and lively. > > Imo it’s not so much about choosing between ‘empty yoga studio’ vs > ‘hoarders paradise’ approaches as two opposing extremes, as much as > deciding on what a reasonable balance is? by perhaps defining some minimal > standards and routines. > > Since standards decided upon can always be changed later, we might > embrace new approaches like the experiment that they are, without them > feeling too fraught or set in stone, a la the ‘RERO’ truism (release early, > release often). By the same token the earlier hacker truism that seems far > less in vogue these days, but I think particularly relevant to our approach > here about structuring space, is GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). > > Best, > David > > On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 07:36 Andrew R Gross via sudo-discuss < > sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org&gt; wrote: > >> I would like to discuss this in real-time, ideally face to face, for >> those available. *Who can join me tomorrow (Monday) night at 8:30 pm?* >> >> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, 9:21 PM Eric O'Connor via sudo-discuss < >> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org&gt; wrote: >> >>> There is a lot of talk about what policy changes should be made, and >>> what Sudo *should not* be like. I think consensus works best when you go >>> from current situation > future situation > goals/motives > plans > >>> execution. >>> >>> So, having more or less established that the current situation is not >>> ideal, could we talk about what SudoRoom *should be* in the future? If >>> people can agree on that, I think the policies might be more clear. >>> >>> >>> To me, a hackerspace is useful because it has a bunch of great people >>> and tools and materials that I don’t have access to at my own home. >>> >>> 1) I can learn things from people, whether through casual interactions, >>> shared projects, and/or organized classes >>> 2) Sharing tools and space, and acquiring materials in bulk means >>> everyone can have cheaper access overall >>> 3) The community energy is inspiring and focusing. I want to do cool >>> things when I’m hanging with people who do cool things. >>> 4-?) ??? add your thing here >>> >>> In terms of motives, goals, fears, etc: >>> >>> If I understand correctly, Jake is saying that curating tools and >>> materials is an important function of a Hackerspace — i.e. to enable (2) — >>> and that doing so requires significant effort. >>> >>> Again, if I understand correctly, Yar, Andrew, and others are saying >>> that a cluttered space inhibits (1) and (3). >>> >>> To add a fear of my own: materials (and to a lesser extent tools, which >>> are often consumable — drill bits, grinding wheels, etc.) cost money/time, >>> and are often not maintained/replaced when they’re shared. >>> >>> >>> It seems like the solution is to decide on a vision for what future >>> SudoRoom should be like. If you show up at SudoRoom on any given day, what >>> tools, materials, and people would you want to have access to? If we agree >>> on that, the plan should be easier to come up with, and people will be more >>> motivated to actually do it. >>> >>> >>> Eric >>> >>>> On Feb 19, 2022, at 15:19, Jake via sudo-discuss < >>> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022, Alexander Papazoglou wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't have any concrete suggestions other than finding a way to >>> make >>>>> stuff transit though sudoroom in a more orderly fashion. Like with >>> planned >>>>> events, maybe in concert with other hackerspaces. But I'm probably >>> just >>>>> echoing Joule's sentiments there. >>>> >>>> I listed concrete suggestions: I said "come and get involved, spend >>> time >>>> understanding what we have and why, and make an impact." >>>> >>>>> However, I think saying that people who don't like the space as it >>> is should >>>>> just go elsewhere is not good policy. >>>> >>>> I understand that that's what people are interpreting from my email, >>> and that >>>> is not what I meant. I tried to be clear but I realize that it >>> didn't work. >>>> >>>> I was saying that people who want an empty room should not try to >>> make sudoroom >>>> into an empty room. There are other places for that, and I support >>> that, but >>>> like I said, sudoroom (to me) is a place where we have tools and >>> materials in >>>> addition to clear and clean workspace. >>>> >>>> And I wish that people didn't interpret my email as telling people >>> not to come >>>> to the space, when I repeatedly and clearly said that what we need is >>> for >>>> people to come to the space and help make it better. >>>> >>>>> Firstly it's exclusionary whereas the spirit of the space is meant >>> to be as >>>>> inclusive as reasonably possible, and secondly it selects for people >>> who have >>>>> high clutter, disgust and hazard tolerance thresholds. While I score >>> high on >>>>> those metrics, I would like the space to be open to people who >>> don't, and I >>>>> think we would benefit from having members on that side of the >>> "spectrum". We >>>>> don't need to make it a yoga studio, but it can be more like an >>> organized >>>>> shop, can't it? >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>> >>>> yes, I agree with you 100%. And I think that the way to get there is >>> for more >>>> people to come to the space and contribute to making it nicer. You >>> and I have >>>> already been doing that and we will continue to do it. I am planning >>> to do a >>>> large e-waste run soon (in the next couple of weeks) and I put work >>> into >>>> preparing that every tuesday night after people leave. >>>> >>>> I understand that my previous email was pretty long and didn't >>> succeed in >>>> getting through what I was trying to say. >>>> >>>> I think that it would be really nice to have the space clean and >>> organized and >>>> inviting, and the way we will do that is by people coming into the >>> space and >>>> cleaning and organizing it. There is no substitute for that, and >>> people who >>>> think that turning away donations (which have supplied literally >>> everything in >>>> sudoroom) are mistaken, and their suggestions harm us and don't help >>> anything. >>>> >>>> -jake >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 12:24 AM Jake via sudo-discuss < >>> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I see what I feel are pretty harsh condemnations of something I >>> think is an >>>>>> important part of hackerspaces/makerspaces like our sudoroom. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been hosting tuesday nights at sudoroom for a while now, and >>> trying to >>>>>> get people back into coming to the space and making use of it. We >>> make use >>>>>> of a lot of different tools and supplies in the space, to build >>> things, >>>>>> repair things, and ideate. We also make use of swaths of blank >>> space on the >>>>>> tables. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a spectrum of interest in the kind of hardware tools and >>> materials >>>>>> we have in sudoroom. Some people are very comfortable surrounded >>> by the >>>>>> many kinds of electronic and other bits we have, even though >>> they're far >>>>>> from organized the way we would like them to be. >>>>>> >>>>>> Other people have zero interest, and would be most at home in an >>> empty room >>>>>> with nothing but clean blank tables, good even lighting, and no >>> visual >>>>>> clutter, like a nice yoga studio. Those people should definitely >>> have that, >>>>>> and I encourage them to start with the disco room! It's almost >>> there, >>>>>> although the floor is a little too "busy" but it could be coated >>> with carpet >>>>>> or something. >>>>>> >>>>>> It would be a mistake for the second kind of people to entirely >>> fail to >>>>>> understand the value of the materials we have, when the real issue >>> is that >>>>>> we've faced a lack of human resources to curate the space. >>>>>> >>>>>> materials, computers, monitors, TVBGones, monitors, soldering irons, >>>>>> monitors, printers, broken laptops, power supplies, oscilloscopes, >>> 3D >>>>>> printers, and random stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> Literally everything in sudoroom at this point has been a donation: >>> the >>>>>> laser cutter, the tables, the light fixtures over the north half of >>> the room >>>>>> (I salvaged them from an abandoned building, brought them and >>> helped install >>>>>> them) >>>>>> >>>>>> yes, we get a lot of stuff that is not something we want to keep. >>> The first >>>>>> thing that comes to mind is "printers" but a notable exception was >>> when >>>>>> recently Hilary was able to score a useful and working printer from >>> the main >>>>>> tables that had been dropped off just a few weeks earlier, by one of >>>>>> Sudoroom's long-lost co-founders. >>>>>> >>>>>> What keeps Sudoroom from being unusable due to too much clutter, as >>> some >>>>>> people have reasonably claimed about the space recently? A lack of >>>>>> contributing effort. Joule contributed tons of effort in the past, >>> and >>>>>> hauled off lots of stuff (although they are also the source of many >>> things >>>>>> we still have) >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been putting hours every tuesday night (after others go >>> home) sorting >>>>>> what we have, cleaning up, and preparing to make a big e-waste >>> run. I've >>>>>> also given away lots of "donations" to people who would give them a >>> good >>>>>> home, and i've even sold a few things (all money goes to sudoroom) >>> and i'll >>>>>> do it again. >>>>>> >>>>>> Today, perhaps thanks to my encouragement, Ian gathered our huge >>> excess of >>>>>> monitors and sorted them according to which ones we should keep, >>> and the >>>>>> rest of them will be donated to https://techexchange.org which is >>> an >>>>>> organization that distributes computers to low-income families in >>> Oakland. >>>>>> Why didn't our excess of monitors get donated to them sooner? >>> Because it >>>>>> requires human labor, and the pandemic has had us basically closed >>> for two >>>>>> years. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want to help sudoroom be a better place; less cluttered, more >>>>>> inviting, then come and get involved, spend time understanding what >>> we have >>>>>> and why, and make an impact. But please don't be reactionary and >>> wish for a >>>>>> blank and empty space, or whatever minimalist vision you have in >>> mind that >>>>>> doesn't align with the spirit of material hacking and creativity >>> that the >>>>>> space was founded on. >>>>>> >>>>>> -jake >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org >>>> More options at >>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/ >>>> This message archived at >>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/hyperkitty/list/sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org/messag… >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org >>> More options at >>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/ >>> This message archived at >>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/hyperkitty/list/sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org/messag… >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org >> More options at >> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/ >> This message archived at >> https://sudoroom.org/lists/hyperkitty/list/sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org/messag… > >