2 Oct
2022
2 Oct
'22
3:22 p.m.
On Sat, 1 Oct 2022, Yardena Cohen wrote:
I don't know if it will work, but I want to
support the folks who are taking
ownership of the problem and proposing solutions. Let's just give them a
chance and see what happens. It's not like they can force people to pay fines
even if the delegates say "you can give fines". There is literally no
enforcement mechanism and no teeth to this, you can always appeal the results
to the delegates if you don't like it anyway.
But imho our delegate meetings have enough to deal with trying to save this
building and we shouldn't ask them to adjudicate every pile of trash.
if there is no power conferred by the delegates approving that part of their
proposal, then I don't see why it's necessary for the delegates to pass the
proposal. They already have the ability to assert that someone should pay
fines in the way you're suggesting.
-jake
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 10:34 PM Cere Misc
<cere.misc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
But would it work tho? Presumably, some of you
know who this kind of
scenario might apply to, I currently have no clue. If such a system were
on place would it effectively work as a deterrent to prevent future
problems?
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 5:08 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
It's so bizarre to me that you're just
speaking about messes like
they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
restore it.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote:
requests, then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
Committee proposal
couple of weeks
after
our
on OCTOBER
formulated by the
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
Yar, since when can action not be taken? If someone makes a proposal
at the
delegates meeting to do something about a mess,
for example a
collective that
has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind,
and we have to pay for
services
to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass
the proposal and make it
happen.
A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific
mess is
a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt
with by our
community, and we
can't evade that responsibility by deputizing
an individual or group to
levy
fines with no oversight. That's what i'm
objecting to. Everything
else has
already been passed, and we haven't even
tried addressing these problems
without the weaponization of this new committee.
I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to
levy
fines, we're still focusing on approving that
part of the proposal as
if it's a
highly important and desirable dynamic that we
want to add to our
community.
-jakonlye
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
> Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
> They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
> kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
> if that doesn't work.
>
> The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
> action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
> proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
> <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and
diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and
move on.
>
>> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up >
>> -Kent
>> -----
>
>> Kent Leech Illustration
>> http://www.kentleech.com
>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>> --
>
>
>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability >
>> Hi Sudoroom,
>
>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>
>> The following proposal was
brought to the delegate's meeting a >> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was
discussed.
failed to
>
>> Since I had not been attending
delegates meetings for some time, I >> forward this proposal to this list so
that sudoroom could discuss
our position
>> on it.
delegate (which
>
>> Since I am a Sudoroom member,
I voiced my position through our >> is me) that I am against giving a
committee the power to levy fines
against
>> omni collectives/tenants/people,
especially since we have not tried
a process
>> of simple communication between a
cleaning collective and
representatives of
>> collectives.
proposal,
>
>> Ultimately the other Omni
delegates felt strongly about passing the >> but they were willing to remove the
provision giving the new
Committee the
>> ability to "impose a monetary
penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
>> were guilty of being messy. The proposal
was partially passed as
seen here:
>
>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until >> october 6 meeting, and require
another affirmative consensus
decision on
>> october 6 to give them that fine
enforcement power?
>> jake: is ok with that
>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
CLP/Billy
>> MOP/Jacqi)
>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
Committee with
>
>> I personally think it's
unreasonable to trust a newly formed >> the power to, for example, determine that
Sudoroom is too messy and
issue
>> "fines" of $50 per day until
they feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
>> and I'm glad that the other delegates
were willing to remove this
provision
>> even though they were technically capable
of overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>
>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting
>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our
position, in order for our
delegate to
>> represent us at that meeting.
(same link
>
>> Please see the link below for
the proposed text of the new Committee >> is in the meeting notes above) and
discuss the provision that's
slated for
>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
proposal
>
>> -jake
>
>> ---------- Forwarded message
----------
>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee >
>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>
>> At the delegate's meeting
tonight, we discussed a proposal >> Events team which is linked above. This
is a draft proposal and
instructions
>> for how to suggest edits are on top of
the doc. Please do not edit
the content
>> directly.
including
>
>> In short, it exists to create
a new committee which will oversee the
>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, >> a monetary penalty for any space left out
of order for both shared
spaces and
>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be
an active and dedicated
participant in that
>> committee, please join us on Slack.
to clean
>
>> This committee would also be
able to spend some amount of Omni funds >> the space regularly and keep it at a
level of cleanliness that must
be
>> maintained for Omni to exist. Please
check this out and get back
with any
>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before
it's voted on at the next
delegate's
>> meeting.
list
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>
>> Billy
>> Community Liberation Programs
>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing >
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