29 Sep
2022
29 Sep
'22
2:35 a.m.
Hi Sudoroom,
THIS IS IMPORTANT!
The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of
weeks
ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our
position
on it.
Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate
(which
is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a
process
of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
collectives.
Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
proposal,
but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after
our
october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision
on
october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
jake: is ok with that
CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
MOP/Jacqi)
ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
"fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's
objections.
This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on
OCTOBER
6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
represent us at that meeting.
Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same
link
is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
October 6th Delegate's meeting.
-jake
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by the
Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the
content
directly.
In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
including
a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces
and
tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in
that
committee, please join us on Slack.
This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to
clean
the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next delegate's
meeting.
Billy
Community Liberation Programs
29 Sep
29 Sep
8:47 p.m.
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and diplomacy
can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move on.
If it¹s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests,
then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
Hi Sudoroom,
THIS IS IMPORTANT!
The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of weeks
ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our position
on it.
Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate (which
is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a process
of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
collectives.
Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the proposal,
but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after our
october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision on
october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
jake: is ok with that
CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
MOP/Jacqi)
ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
"fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their standard,
and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's objections.
This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on OCTOBER
6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
represent us at that meeting.
Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same
link
is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
October 6th Delegate's meeting.
-jake
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by the
Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the content
directly.
In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, including
a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces and
tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in
that
committee, please join us on Slack.
This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to clean
the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next delegate's
meeting.
Billy
Community Liberation Programs
_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
30 Sep
30 Sep
11:22 a.m.
yes this was exactly my position, if you want to create a cleanliness
accountability committee, certainly give them funds and help them create a
communications network for accountable communications, so that groups that
create messes can be contacted through a designated contact person, and their
response or lack of response can be dealt with accordingly.
but giving this group the authority to unilaterally issue fines because they
decide that some person or group is too messy, just doesn't seem practical to
me and I object to it to the point of a block.
our delegate (me) needs to know where other sudoroom members stand on this
issue. The majority of the proposal has already passed, now we're slated to
vote on the one specific issue - whether to give the CAC the ability to levy
fines. Where do people stand on this?
-jake
On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Kent Leech via sudo-discuss wrote:
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first?
Kindness and diplomacy
can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move on.
If it¹s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests,
then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
Hi Sudoroom,
THIS IS IMPORTANT!
The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of weeks
ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our position
on it.
Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate (which
is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a process
of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
collectives.
Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the proposal,
but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after our
october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision on
october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
jake: is ok with that
CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
MOP/Jacqi)
ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
"fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their standard,
and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's objections.
This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on OCTOBER
6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
represent us at that meeting.
Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same
link
is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
October 6th Delegate's meeting.
-jake
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by the
Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the content
directly.
In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, including
a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces and
tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in
that
committee, please join us on Slack.
This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to clean
the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next delegate's
meeting.
Billy
Community Liberation Programs
_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
11:41 a.m.
Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
if that doesn't work.
The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first?
Kindness and diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move
on.
If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests, then some
sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
Hi Sudoroom,
THIS IS IMPORTANT!
The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of weeks
ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our position
on it.
Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate (which
is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a process
of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
collectives.
Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the proposal,
but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after our
october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision on
october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
jake: is ok with that
CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
MOP/Jacqi)
ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
"fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their standard,
and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's objections.
This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on OCTOBER
6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
represent us at that meeting.
Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same link
is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
October 6th Delegate's meeting.
-jake
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by the
Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the content
directly.
In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, including
a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces and
tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in that
committee, please join us on Slack.
This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to clean
the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next delegate's
meeting.
Billy
Community Liberation Programs
_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
12:22 p.m.
Yar, since when can action not be taken? If someone makes a proposal at the
delegates meeting to do something about a mess, for example a collective that
has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind, and we have to pay for services
to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass the proposal and make it happen.
A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific mess is
a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt with by our community, and we
can't evade that responsibility by deputizing an individual or group to levy
fines with no oversight. That's what i'm objecting to. Everything else has
already been passed, and we haven't even tried addressing these problems
without the weaponization of this new committee.
I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to levy
fines, we're still focusing on approving that part of the proposal as if it's a
highly important and desirable dynamic that we want to add to our community.
-jakonlye
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the
committee intends.
They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
if that doesn't work.
The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up
first? Kindness and diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up
and move on.
If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests, then some
sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
Hi Sudoroom,
THIS IS IMPORTANT!
The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of weeks
ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our position
on it.
Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate (which
is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a process
of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
collectives.
Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the proposal,
but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after our
october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision on
october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
jake: is ok with that
CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
MOP/Jacqi)
ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
"fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their standard,
and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's objections.
This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on OCTOBER
6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
represent us at that meeting.
Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same link
is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
October 6th Delegate's meeting.
-jake
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by the
Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the content
directly.
In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, including
a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces and
tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in that
committee, please join us on Slack.
This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to clean
the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next delegate's
meeting.
Billy
Community Liberation Programs
_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
5:06 p.m.
It's so bizarre to me that you're just speaking about messes like
they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
restore it.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote:
Yar, since when can action not be taken? If someone makes a proposal at the
delegates meeting to do something about a mess, for example a collective that
has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind, and we have to pay for services
to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass the proposal and make it happen.
A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific mess is
a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt with by our community, and we
can't evade that responsibility by deputizing an individual or group to levy
fines with no oversight. That's what i'm objecting to. Everything else has
already been passed, and we haven't even tried addressing these problems
without the weaponization of this new committee.
I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to levy
fines, we're still focusing on approving that part of the proposal as if it's a
highly important and desirable dynamic that we want to add to our community.
-jakonlye
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
> Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
> They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
> kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
> if that doesn't work.
>
> The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
> action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
> proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
> <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and diplomacy can
go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move on.
>>
>> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests, then
some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
>>
>> -Kent
>> -----
>>
>> Kent Leech Illustration
>> http://www.kentleech.com
>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>> --
>>
>>
>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee
proposal
>>
>> Hi Sudoroom,
>>
>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>>
>> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of
weeks
>> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
>>
>> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
>> forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our position
>> on it.
>>
>> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate (which
>> is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
>> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a process
>> of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
>> collectives.
>>
>> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the proposal,
>> but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
>> ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
>> were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
>>
>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after our
>> october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision on
>> october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
>> jake: is ok with that
>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
>> MOP/Jacqi)
>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>>
>> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
>> the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
>> "fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
>> and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
>> even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>>
>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on
OCTOBER
>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
>> represent us at that meeting.
>>
>> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same link
>> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>>
>> -jake
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
>>
>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>>
>> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by
the
>> Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
>> for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the content
>> directly.
>>
>> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, including
>> a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces and
>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in
that
>> committee, please join us on Slack.
>>
>> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to clean
>> the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
>> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next
delegate's
>> meeting.
>>
>> Billy
>> Community Liberation Programs
>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>> More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
> More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>
10:33 p.m.
But would it work tho? Presumably, some of you know who this kind of
scenario might apply to, I currently have no clue. If such a system were
on place would it effectively work as a deterrent to prevent future
problems?
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 5:08 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
It's so bizarre to me that you're just
speaking about messes like
they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
restore it.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote:
Yar, since when can action not be taken? If someone makes a proposal at
the
delegates meeting to do something about a mess,
for example a collective
that
has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind,
and we have to pay for
services
to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass
the proposal and make it
happen.
A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific
mess is
a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt
with by our community,
and we
can't evade that responsibility by deputizing
an individual or group to
levy
fines with no oversight. That's what i'm
objecting to. Everything else
has
already been passed, and we haven't even
tried addressing these problems
without the weaponization of this new committee.
I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to
levy
fines, we're still focusing on approving that
part of the proposal as if
it's a
highly important and desirable dynamic that we
want to add to our
community.
-jakonlye
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
> Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
> They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
> kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
> if that doesn't work.
>
> The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
> action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
> proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
> <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and
diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and
move on.
>>
>> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up
requests, then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
>>
>> -Kent
>> -----
>>
>> Kent Leech Illustration
>> http://www.kentleech.com
>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>> --
>>
>>
>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
>>
>> Hi Sudoroom,
>>
>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>>
>> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple
of weeks
>> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was
discussed.
>>
>> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
failed
to
>> forward this proposal to this list so
that sudoroom could discuss our
position
>> on it.
>>
>> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our
delegate
(which
>> is me) that I am against giving a
committee the power to levy fines
against
>> omni collectives/tenants/people,
especially since we have not tried a
process
>> of simple communication between a
cleaning collective and
representatives of
>> collectives.
>>
>> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
proposal,
>> but they were willing to remove the
provision giving the new
Committee the
>> ability to "impose a monetary
penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
>> were guilty of being messy. The
proposal was partially passed as
seen here:
>>
>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until
after our
>> october 6 meeting, and require
another affirmative consensus
decision on
>> october 6 to give them that fine
enforcement power?
>> jake: is ok with that
>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
CLP/Billy
>> MOP/Jacqi)
>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>>
>> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed
Committee with
>> the power to, for example, determine
that Sudoroom is too messy and
issue
>> "fines" of $50 per day until
they feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
>> and I'm glad that the other
delegates were willing to remove this
provision
>> even though they were technically
capable of overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>>
>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on
OCTOBER
>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our
position, in order for our
delegate to
>> represent us at that meeting.
>>
>> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee
(same link
>> is in the meeting notes above) and
discuss the provision that's
slated for
>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>>
>> -jake
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee
proposal
>>
>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>>
>> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated
by the
>> Events team which is linked above. This
is a draft proposal and
instructions
>> for how to suggest edits are on top of
the doc. Please do not edit
the content
>> directly.
>>
>> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
including
>> a monetary penalty for any space left
out of order for both shared
spaces and
>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be
an active and dedicated
participant in that
>> committee, please join us on Slack.
>>
>> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds
to
clean
>> the space regularly and keep it at a
level of cleanliness that must be
>> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with
any
>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before
it's voted on at the next
delegate's
>> meeting.
>>
>> Billy
>> Community Liberation Programs
>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing
list
-- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>> More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>
_______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
> More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
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1 Oct
1 Oct
8:13 a.m.
I don't know if it will work, but I want to support the folks who are
taking ownership of the problem and proposing solutions. Let's just give
them a chance and see what happens. It's not like they can force people to
pay fines even if the delegates say "you can give fines". There is
literally no enforcement mechanism and no teeth to this, you can always
appeal the results to the delegates if you don't like it anyway.
But imho our delegate meetings have enough to deal with trying to save this
building and we shouldn't ask them to adjudicate every pile of trash.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 10:34 PM Cere Misc <cere.misc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
But would it work tho? Presumably, some of you know
who this kind of
scenario might apply to, I currently have no clue. If such a system were
on place would it effectively work as a deterrent to prevent future
problems?
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 5:08 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
It's so bizarre to me that you're just
speaking about messes like
they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
restore it.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote:
Yar, since when can action not be taken? If someone makes a proposal
at the
delegates meeting to do something about a mess,
for example a
collective that
has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind,
and we have to pay for
services
to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass
the proposal and make it
happen.
A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific
mess is
a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt
with by our
community, and we
can't evade that responsibility by deputizing
an individual or group to
levy
fines with no oversight. That's what i'm
objecting to. Everything
else has
already been passed, and we haven't even
tried addressing these problems
without the weaponization of this new committee.
I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to
levy
fines, we're still focusing on approving that
part of the proposal as
if it's a
highly important and desirable dynamic that we
want to add to our
community.
-jakonlye
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
> Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
> They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
> kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
> if that doesn't work.
>
> The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
> action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
> proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
> <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and
diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and
move on.
>>
>> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up
requests, then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
>>
>> -Kent
>> -----
>>
>> Kent Leech Illustration
>> http://www.kentleech.com
>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>> --
>>
>>
>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
>>
>> Hi Sudoroom,
>>
>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>>
>> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a
couple
of weeks
>> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was
discussed.
>>
>> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
failed
to
>> forward this proposal to this list so
that sudoroom could discuss
our position
>> on it.
>>
>> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our
delegate
(which
>> is me) that I am against giving a
committee the power to levy fines
against
>> omni collectives/tenants/people,
especially since we have not tried
a process
>> of simple communication between a
cleaning collective and
representatives of
>> collectives.
>>
>> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
proposal,
>> but they were willing to remove the
provision giving the new
Committee the
>> ability to "impose a monetary
penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
>> were guilty of being messy. The
proposal was partially passed as
seen here:
>>
>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until
after our
>> october 6 meeting, and require
another affirmative consensus
decision on
>> october 6 to give them that fine
enforcement power?
>> jake: is ok with that
>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
CLP/Billy
>> MOP/Jacqi)
>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>>
>> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed
Committee with
>> the power to, for example, determine
that Sudoroom is too messy and
issue
>> "fines" of $50 per day until
they feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
>> and I'm glad that the other
delegates were willing to remove this
provision
>> even though they were technically
capable of overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>>
>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting
on
OCTOBER
>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our
position, in order for our
delegate to
>> represent us at that meeting.
>>
>> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee
(same link
>> is in the meeting notes above) and
discuss the provision that's
slated for
>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>>
>> -jake
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee
proposal
>>
>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>>
>> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal
formulated
by the
>> Events team which is linked above. This
is a draft proposal and
instructions
>> for how to suggest edits are on top of
the doc. Please do not edit
the content
>> directly.
>>
>> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
including
>> a monetary penalty for any space left
out of order for both shared
spaces and
>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be
an active and dedicated
participant in that
>> committee, please join us on Slack.
>>
>> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds
to
clean
>> the space regularly and keep it at a
level of cleanliness that must
be
>> maintained for Omni to exist. Please
check this out and get back
with any
>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before
it's voted on at the next
delegate's
>> meeting.
>>
>> Billy
>> Community Liberation Programs
>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing
list
-- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>> More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>
_______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
> More options at
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>
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More options at
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2 Oct
2 Oct
3:22 p.m.
On Sat, 1 Oct 2022, Yardena Cohen wrote:
I don't know if it will work, but I want to
support the folks who are taking
ownership of the problem and proposing solutions. Let's just give them a
chance and see what happens. It's not like they can force people to pay fines
even if the delegates say "you can give fines". There is literally no
enforcement mechanism and no teeth to this, you can always appeal the results
to the delegates if you don't like it anyway.
But imho our delegate meetings have enough to deal with trying to save this
building and we shouldn't ask them to adjudicate every pile of trash.
if there is no power conferred by the delegates approving that part of their
proposal, then I don't see why it's necessary for the delegates to pass the
proposal. They already have the ability to assert that someone should pay
fines in the way you're suggesting.
-jake
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 10:34 PM Cere Misc
<cere.misc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
But would it work tho? Presumably, some of you
know who this kind of
scenario might apply to, I currently have no clue. If such a system were
on place would it effectively work as a deterrent to prevent future
problems?
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 5:08 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
It's so bizarre to me that you're just
speaking about messes like
they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
restore it.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote:
requests, then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
Committee proposal
couple of weeks
after
our
on OCTOBER
formulated by the
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
Yar, since when can action not be taken? If someone makes a proposal
at the
delegates meeting to do something about a mess,
for example a
collective that
has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind,
and we have to pay for
services
to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass
the proposal and make it
happen.
A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific
mess is
a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt
with by our
community, and we
can't evade that responsibility by deputizing
an individual or group to
levy
fines with no oversight. That's what i'm
objecting to. Everything
else has
already been passed, and we haven't even
tried addressing these problems
without the weaponization of this new committee.
I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability to
levy
fines, we're still focusing on approving that
part of the proposal as
if it's a
highly important and desirable dynamic that we
want to add to our
community.
-jakonlye
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
> Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee intends.
> They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first, with
> kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose fines
> if that doesn't work.
>
> The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort of
> action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part of the
> proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
> <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and
diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and
move on.
>
>> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up >
>> -Kent
>> -----
>
>> Kent Leech Illustration
>> http://www.kentleech.com
>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>> --
>
>
>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability >
>> Hi Sudoroom,
>
>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>
>> The following proposal was
brought to the delegate's meeting a >> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was
discussed.
failed to
>
>> Since I had not been attending
delegates meetings for some time, I >> forward this proposal to this list so
that sudoroom could discuss
our position
>> on it.
delegate (which
>
>> Since I am a Sudoroom member,
I voiced my position through our >> is me) that I am against giving a
committee the power to levy fines
against
>> omni collectives/tenants/people,
especially since we have not tried
a process
>> of simple communication between a
cleaning collective and
representatives of
>> collectives.
proposal,
>
>> Ultimately the other Omni
delegates felt strongly about passing the >> but they were willing to remove the
provision giving the new
Committee the
>> ability to "impose a monetary
penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
>> were guilty of being messy. The proposal
was partially passed as
seen here:
>
>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until >> october 6 meeting, and require
another affirmative consensus
decision on
>> october 6 to give them that fine
enforcement power?
>> jake: is ok with that
>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
CLP/Billy
>> MOP/Jacqi)
>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
Committee with
>
>> I personally think it's
unreasonable to trust a newly formed >> the power to, for example, determine that
Sudoroom is too messy and
issue
>> "fines" of $50 per day until
they feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
>> and I'm glad that the other delegates
were willing to remove this
provision
>> even though they were technically capable
of overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>
>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting
>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our
position, in order for our
delegate to
>> represent us at that meeting.
(same link
>
>> Please see the link below for
the proposed text of the new Committee >> is in the meeting notes above) and
discuss the provision that's
slated for
>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
proposal
>
>> -jake
>
>> ---------- Forwarded message
----------
>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee >
>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>
>> At the delegate's meeting
tonight, we discussed a proposal >> Events team which is linked above. This
is a draft proposal and
instructions
>> for how to suggest edits are on top of
the doc. Please do not edit
the content
>> directly.
including
>
>> In short, it exists to create
a new committee which will oversee the
>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, >> a monetary penalty for any space left out
of order for both shared
spaces and
>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be
an active and dedicated
participant in that
>> committee, please join us on Slack.
to clean
>
>> This committee would also be
able to spend some amount of Omni funds >> the space regularly and keep it at a
level of cleanliness that must
be
>> maintained for Omni to exist. Please
check this out and get back
with any
>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before
it's voted on at the next
delegate's
>> meeting.
list
-- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
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>
>> Billy
>> Community Liberation Programs
>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing >
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>> More options at >
_______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
> More options at
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>
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4:02 p.m.
I'm not saying the proposal is meaningless, just that the risk of saying
yes to your comrades here is extremely low compared to the risk of
alienating them by saying no. Just let it play out and argue over the
actual results rather than arguing over hypotheticals. The way you're going
about this is just so needlessly high temperature. And comparing cleaning
fees to "violence" or a police department with an "iron fist" is next
level
ridiculous coming from the same person who railed for months against Homes
Not Jails becoming a collective without paying arbitrary amounts of money.
The only common denominator I see here is that you are a serial blocker of
things, Jake. I think you have been consistently abusing your blocking
power to the detriment of the whole consensus process.
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022, 3:22 PM Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote:
if there is no power conferred by the delegates
approving that part of
their
proposal, then I don't see why it's necessary for the delegates to pass the
proposal. They already have the ability to assert that someone should pay
fines in the way you're suggesting.
-jake
On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 10:34 PM Cere Misc
<cere.misc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> But would it work tho? Presumably, some of you know who this kind of
> scenario might apply to, I currently have no clue. If such a system
were
> on place would it effectively work as a
deterrent to prevent future
> problems?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 5:08 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>
>> It's so bizarre to me that you're just speaking about messes like
>> they're hypotheticals. The reality is that all our spaces are
>> disastrously disgusting, a structure for consequences is already way
>> way overdue, the patience and good faith of people who do regular
>> cleaning labor is already worn out, and we need actual solutions that
>> don't pile yet more expectations of the same kind of feminized and
>> racialized labor (cleaning + communication) onto the same set of
>> burnt-out volunteers. The burden should be on the people who are
>> turning our commons into a tragedy, not on the people trying to
>> restore it.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yar, since when can action not be taken? If someone makes a proposal
>> at the
>>> delegates meeting to do something about a mess, for example a
>> collective that
>>> has moved out and left a bunch of stuff behind, and we have to pay for
>> services
>>> to remove it, it's a simple measure to pass the proposal and make it
>> happen.
>>>
>>> A person or collective ignoring clear communications about a specific
>> mess is
>>> a serious issue and should be discussed and dealt with by our
>> community, and we
>>> can't evade that responsibility by deputizing an individual or group
to
>> levy
>>> fines with no oversight. That's what i'm objecting to. Everything
>> else has
>>> already been passed, and we haven't even tried addressing these
problems
>>>> without the weaponization of this new committee.
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand why, after passing everything except the ability
to
>>> levy
>>>> fines, we're still focusing on approving that part of the proposal
as
>>> if it's a
>>>> highly important and desirable dynamic that we want to add to our
>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> -jakonlye
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kent, that is what the proposal says and what the committee
intends.
>>>>> They're not authoritarian monsters. Their plan is to ask first,
with
>>>>> kindness and diplomacy, give people some time, and then impose
fines
>>>>> if that doesn't work.
>>>>>
>>>>> The status quo is that no matter how bad things get, "some sort
of
>>>>> action by Omni" cannot be taken, and Jake is blocking the part
of the
>>>>> proposal which says action could eventually be taken.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 8:49 PM Kent Leech via sudo-discuss
>>>>> <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness
and
>>> diplomacy can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and
>>> move on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it’s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple
clean-up
>>> requests, then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Kent
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kent Leech Illustration
>>>>>> http://www.kentleech.com
>>>>>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>>>>>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>>>>>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness
Accountability
>>> Committee proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sudoroom,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting
a
>>> couple of weeks
>>>>>> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time,
I
>>> failed to
>>>>>> forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could
discuss
>>> our position
>>>>>> on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our
>>> delegate (which
>>>>>> is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy
fines
>>> against
>>>>>> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not
tried
>>> a process
>>>>>> of simple communication between a cleaning collective and
>>> representatives of
>>>>>> collectives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing
the
>>> proposal,
>>>>>> but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new
>>> Committee the
>>>>>> ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or
individuals they
>>> determined
>>>>>> were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed
as
>>> seen here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>>>>>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement
until
>>> after our
>>>>>> october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative
consensus
>>> decision on
>>>>>> october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
>>>>>> jake: is ok with that
>>>>>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
>>> CLP/Billy
>>>>>> MOP/Jacqi)
>>>>>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>>>>>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly
formed
>>> Committee with
>>>>>> the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy
and
>>> issue
>>>>>> "fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have
satisfied their
>>> standard,
>>>>>> and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove
this
>>> provision
>>>>>> even though they were technically capable of overriding
sudoroom's
>>> objections.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's
meeting
>>> on OCTOBER
>>>>>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for
our
>>> delegate to
>>>>>> represent us at that meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new
Committee
>>> (same link
>>>>>> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision
that's
>>> slated for
>>>>>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -jake
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>>>>>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>>>>>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee
>>> proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal
>>> formulated by the
>>>>>> Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and
>>> instructions
>>>>>> for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not
edit
>>> the content
>>>>>> directly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee
the
>>>>>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do
so,
>>> including
>>>>>> a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both
shared
>>> spaces and
>>>>>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated
>>> participant in that
>>>>>> committee, please join us on Slack.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni
funds
>>> to clean
>>>>>> the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that
must
>>> be
>>>>>> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get
back
>>> with any
>>>>>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the
next
>>> delegate's
>>>>>> meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Billy
>>>>>> Community Liberation Programs
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
mailing
>>> list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
>>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>>>>>> More options at
>>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>>>>> More options at
>>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>>> More options at
>>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>>
>>
>
3:26 p.m.
Yes this is the case, messes need to be addressed and accountability assigned,
but I don't think it makes sense to suddenly grant the power to issue
"fines"
to a newly formed committee without having any context for the specific need
for such a thing.
So far i've heard a lot of yelling that this is needed, and an accusation that
the Omni Commons is too "laissez-faire" to function properly, implying that
what we really need is a police department with an iron fist. I am not
convinced.
Kent, as delegate I need to solicit peoples' positions on this upcoming
proposal so please be clear about how you want our position to be represented.
-jake
On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Kent Leech via sudo-discuss wrote:
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first?
Kindness and diplomacy
can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move on.
If it¹s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests,
then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
Hi Sudoroom,
THIS IS IMPORTANT!
The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple of weeks
ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I failed to
forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss our position
on it.
Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate (which
is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines against
omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried a process
of simple communication between a cleaning collective and representatives of
collectives.
Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the proposal,
but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new Committee the
ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or individuals they
determined
were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until after our
october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus decision on
october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
jake: is ok with that
CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
MOP/Jacqi)
ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee with
the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and issue
"fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied their standard,
and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this provision
even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's objections.
This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on OCTOBER
6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our delegate to
represent us at that meeting.
Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee (same
link
is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated for
October 6th Delegate's meeting.
-jake
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated by the
Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and instructions
for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit the content
directly.
In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so, including
a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared spaces and
tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated participant in
that
committee, please join us on Slack.
This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to clean
the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must be
maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with any
thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next delegate's
meeting.
Billy
Community Liberation Programs
_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
3:33 p.m.
I'm in favor of giving this proposal a chance. As Yar said, we can always
decide to revoke it again if it turns out not to work the way we like.
Patrik
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022, 3:27 PM Jake via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Yes this is the case, messes need to be addressed and
accountability
assigned,
but I don't think it makes sense to suddenly grant the power to issue
"fines"
to a newly formed committee without having any context for the specific
need
for such a thing.
So far i've heard a lot of yelling that this is needed, and an accusation
that
the Omni Commons is too "laissez-faire" to function properly, implying that
what we really need is a police department with an iron fist. I am not
convinced.
Kent, as delegate I need to solicit peoples' positions on this upcoming
proposal so please be clear about how you want our position to be
represented.
-jake
On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Kent Leech via sudo-discuss wrote:
sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up
first? Kindness and
diplomacy
can go further. Give the messy group some time to
tidy up and move on.
If it¹s a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up
requests,
then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
> Hi Sudoroom,
>
> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>
> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple
of
weeks
> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was
discussed.
>
> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
failed to
> forward this proposal to this list so that
sudoroom could discuss our
position
> on it.
>
> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate
(which
> is me) that I am against giving a committee
the power to levy fines
against
> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially
since we have not tried a
process
> of simple communication between a cleaning
collective and
representatives of
> collectives.
>
> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
proposal,
> but they were willing to remove the provision
giving the new Committee
the
> ability to "impose a monetary
penalty" on groups or individuals they
> determined
> were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen
here:
>
> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until
after
our
> october 6 meeting, and require another
affirmative consensus
decision on
> october 6 to give them that fine
enforcement power?
> jake: is ok with that
> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
> MOP/Jacqi)
> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>
> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee
with
> the power to, for example, determine that
Sudoroom is too messy and
issue
> "fines" of $50 per day until they
feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
> and I'm glad that the other delegates
were willing to remove this
provision
> even though they were technically capable of
overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>
> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on
OCTOBER
> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our
position, in order for our
delegate to
> represent us at that meeting.
>
> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee
(same
> link
> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated
for
> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>
> -jake
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
>
> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>
> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated
by
the
> Events team which is linked above. This is a
draft proposal and
instructions
> for how to suggest edits are on top of the
doc. Please do not edit the
content
> directly.
>
> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
including
> a monetary penalty for any space left out of
order for both shared
spaces and
> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an
active and dedicated participant
in
> that
> committee, please join us on Slack.
>
> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to
clean
> the space regularly and keep it at a level of
cleanliness that must be
> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with
any
> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before
it's voted on at the next
delegate's
> meeting.
>
> Billy
> Community Liberation Programs
> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing
list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
_______________________________________________
4:39 p.m.
Patrik, what you're missing about this proposal is that it was made by someone
who has shown themselves to be too immature to handle such power.
A while ago Billy got upset because some speakers got moved into the ballroom
and he felt they were in the way. I responded to his question about how they
got moved there and he went on an embarrassing rampage on the consensus list,
ending with a threat to unilaterally "get rid of" the speakers, and describing
the discussion as a "pissing contest" (another way to say "penis size
comparison") as seen in this thread (read the whole thing for context):
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-August/003618.html
two weeks later, Billy proposed the "Cleanliness Accountability Proposal" with
the ability to levy fines against people he decides have been irresponsible.
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-September/003634.html
Since the only time i've heard of a conflict about a "mess" being cleaned up
on
any email lists (and i'm on a bunch of them) has been Billy targeting me
personally, I don't think it makes sense to deputize him to be able to levy
fines against people.
He also accused us of being "laissez faire" in the meeting since we were
hesitating to pass his proposal. Maybe you didn't notice that.
As for you being in favor of the proposal, the proposal has been passed with
the sole exception of the ability to levy fines. The fact that we're spending
so much energy discussing this one point makes me question why it's so much
more important than any other aspect of the proposal. There has been no
discussion of budget, or coordination of this new committee, since the proposal
was passed, the only discussion has been advocating for the ability to levy
fines.
-jake
On Sun, 2 Oct 2022, Patrik D'haeseleer wrote:
I'm in favor of giving this proposal a chance. As
Yar said, we can always
decide to revoke it again if it turns out not to work the way we like.
Patrik
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022, 3:27 PM Jake via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Yes this is the case, messes need to be addressed
and accountability
assigned, but I don't think it makes sense to suddenly grant the power to
issue "fines" to a newly formed committee without having any context for the
specific need for such a thing.
So far i've heard a lot of yelling that this is needed, and an accusation
that the Omni Commons is too "laissez-faire" to function properly, implying
that what we really need is a police department with an iron fist. I am not
convinced.
Kent, as delegate I need to solicit peoples' positions on this upcoming
proposal so please be clear about how you want our position to be
represented.
-jake
On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Kent Leech via sudo-discuss wrote:
sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up
first? Kindness and diplomacy
can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move on.
If it's a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests,
then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
> Hi Sudoroom,
>
> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>
> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple
of
weeks
> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was
discussed.
>
> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
failed to
> forward this proposal to this list so that
sudoroom could discuss our
position
> on it.
>
> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate
(which
> is me) that I am against giving a committee
the power to levy fines
against
> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially
since we have not tried a
process
> of simple communication between a cleaning
collective and
representatives of
> collectives.
>
> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
proposal,
> but they were willing to remove the provision
giving the new Committee
the
> ability to "impose a monetary
penalty" on groups or individuals they
> determined
> were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen
here:
>
> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until
after
our
> october 6 meeting, and require another
affirmative consensus
decision on
> october 6 to give them that fine
enforcement power?
> jake: is ok with that
> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
> MOP/Jacqi)
> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>
> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee
with
> the power to, for example, determine that
Sudoroom is too messy and
issue
> "fines" of $50 per day until they
feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
> and I'm glad that the other delegates
were willing to remove this
provision
> even though they were technically capable of
overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>
> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on
OCTOBER
> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our
position, in order for our
delegate to
> represent us at that meeting.
>
> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee
(same
> link
> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated
for
> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>
> -jake
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
>
> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>
> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated
by
the
> Events team which is linked above. This is a
draft proposal and
instructions
> for how to suggest edits are on top of the
doc. Please do not edit the
content
> directly.
>
> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
including
> a monetary penalty for any space left out of
order for both shared
spaces and
> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an
active and dedicated participant
in
> that
> committee, please join us on Slack.
>
> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to
clean
> the space regularly and keep it at a level of
cleanliness that must be
> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with
any
> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before
it's voted on at the next
delegate's
> meeting.
>
> Billy
> Community Liberation Programs
> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing
list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
_______________________________________________
3 Oct
3 Oct
2:24 p.m.
1) Billy's pronouns are they/them
2) the committee HAS begun organizing already, in a public channel on
omni's slack which anybody is welcome to join. ping me with your email
address for an invite to omni slack
3) what is so wrong with the term laissez faire?
4) This proposal is NOT an attempt to target you personally in any
way. It is an attempt to solve real problems related to ongoing work
by the dozens of people who use and maintain common spaces at omni.
It's really really really not about you. Please make better attempts
at resolving your personal problems out of band so they stop leaking
into omni business and wasting everybody else's time.
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jake via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Patrik, what you're missing about this proposal is that it was made by someone
who has shown themselves to be too immature to handle such power.
A while ago Billy got upset because some speakers got moved into the ballroom
and he felt they were in the way. I responded to his question about how they
got moved there and he went on an embarrassing rampage on the consensus list,
ending with a threat to unilaterally "get rid of" the speakers, and describing
the discussion as a "pissing contest" (another way to say "penis size
comparison") as seen in this thread (read the whole thing for context):
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-August/003618.html
two weeks later, Billy proposed the "Cleanliness Accountability Proposal" with
the ability to levy fines against people he decides have been irresponsible.
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-September/003634.html
Since the only time i've heard of a conflict about a "mess" being cleaned
up on
any email lists (and i'm on a bunch of them) has been Billy targeting me
personally, I don't think it makes sense to deputize him to be able to levy
fines against people.
He also accused us of being "laissez faire" in the meeting since we were
hesitating to pass his proposal. Maybe you didn't notice that.
As for you being in favor of the proposal, the proposal has been passed with
the sole exception of the ability to levy fines. The fact that we're spending
so much energy discussing this one point makes me question why it's so much
more important than any other aspect of the proposal. There has been no
discussion of budget, or coordination of this new committee, since the proposal
was passed, the only discussion has been advocating for the ability to levy
fines.
-jake
On Sun, 2 Oct 2022, Patrik D'haeseleer wrote:
I'm in favor of giving this proposal a
chance. As Yar said, we can always
decide to revoke it again if it turns out not to work the way we like.
Patrik
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022, 3:27 PM Jake via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
Yes this is the case, messes need to be addressed
and accountability
assigned, but I don't think it makes sense to suddenly grant the power to
issue "fines" to a newly formed committee without having any context for the
specific need for such a thing.
So far i've heard a lot of yelling that this is needed, and an accusation
that the Omni Commons is too "laissez-faire" to function properly, implying
that what we really need is a police department with an iron fist. I am not
convinced.
Kent, as delegate I need to solicit peoples' positions on this upcoming
proposal so please be clear about how you want our position to be
represented.
-jake
On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Kent Leech via sudo-discuss wrote:
Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up
first? Kindness and diplomacy
can go further. Give the messy group some time to tidy up and move on.
If it's a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up requests,
then some sort of action by Omni could be taken.
-Kent
-----
Kent Leech Illustration
http://www.kentleech.com
kent(a)kentleech.com
+1 (510) 504-0634
--
From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
Committee proposal
> Hi Sudoroom,
>
> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>
> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a couple
of
weeks
> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was
discussed.
>
> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
failed to
> forward this proposal to this list so that
sudoroom could discuss our
position
> on it.
>
> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our delegate
(which
> is me) that I am against giving a committee
the power to levy fines
against
> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially
since we have not tried a
process
> of simple communication between a cleaning
collective and
representatives of
> collectives.
>
> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
proposal,
> but they were willing to remove the provision
giving the new Committee
the
> ability to "impose a monetary
penalty" on groups or individuals they
> determined
> were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as seen
here:
>
> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until
after
our
> october 6 meeting, and require another
affirmative consensus
decision on
> october 6 to give them that fine
enforcement power?
> jake: is ok with that
> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen CLP/Billy
> MOP/Jacqi)
> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>
> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed Committee
with
> the power to, for example, determine that
Sudoroom is too messy and
issue
> "fines" of $50 per day until they
feel that we have satisfied their
standard,
> and I'm glad that the other delegates
were willing to remove this
provision
> even though they were technically capable of
overriding sudoroom's
objections.
>
> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting on
OCTOBER
> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our
position, in order for our
delegate to
> represent us at that meeting.
>
> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee
(same
> link
> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's slated
for
> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>
> -jake
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee proposal
>
> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>
> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal formulated
by
the
> Events team which is linked above. This is a
draft proposal and
instructions
> for how to suggest edits are on top of the
doc. Please do not edit the
content
> directly.
>
> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
including
> a monetary penalty for any space left out of
order for both shared
spaces and
> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an
active and dedicated participant
in
> that
> committee, please join us on Slack.
>
> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni funds to
clean
> the space regularly and keep it at a level of
cleanliness that must be
> maintained for Omni to exist. Please check this out and get back with
any
> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before
it's voted on at the next
delegate's
> meeting.
>
> Billy
> Community Liberation Programs
> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing
list --
> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send
an email to
> sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
> https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list --
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
3:40 p.m.
If I am reading this conversation correctly, it appears that people don't
have an issue with a group or person monitoring or making recommendations
about building cleanups, but a significant number of people at SudoRoom DO
have an issue with giving a single person or group the power to levy
fines. This entire thread - having now moved in a more volatile direction
- has not moved the needle even a little bit on this question. If Sudo or
Omni wants to consider this proposal further, I recommend we do it off the
list and in an online or in-person meeting.
On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 2:26 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
1) Billy's pronouns are they/them
2) the committee HAS begun organizing already, in a public channel on
omni's slack which anybody is welcome to join. ping me with your email
address for an invite to omni slack
3) what is so wrong with the term laissez faire?
4) This proposal is NOT an attempt to target you personally in any
way. It is an attempt to solve real problems related to ongoing work
by the dozens of people who use and maintain common spaces at omni.
It's really really really not about you. Please make better attempts
at resolving your personal problems out of band so they stop leaking
into omni business and wasting everybody else's time.
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jake via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
Patrik, what you're missing about this proposal is that it was made by
someone
who has shown themselves to be too immature to
handle such power.
A while ago Billy got upset because some speakers got moved into the
ballroom
and he felt they were in the way. I responded to
his question about how
they
got moved there and he went on an embarrassing
rampage on the consensus
list,
ending with a threat to unilaterally "get
rid of" the speakers, and
describing
the discussion as a "pissing contest"
(another way to say "penis size
comparison") as seen in this thread (read the whole thing for context):
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-August/003618.html
two weeks later, Billy proposed the "Cleanliness Accountability
Proposal" with
the ability to levy fines against people he
decides have been
irresponsible.
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-September/003634.html
Since the only time i've heard of a conflict about a "mess" being
cleaned up on
any email lists (and i'm on a bunch of them)
has been Billy targeting me
personally, I don't think it makes sense to deputize him to be able to
levy
fines against people.
He also accused us of being "laissez faire" in the meeting since we were
hesitating to pass his proposal. Maybe you didn't notice that.
As for you being in favor of the proposal, the proposal has been passed
with
the sole exception of the ability to levy fines.
The fact that we're
spending
so much energy discussing this one point makes me
question why it's so
much
more important than any other aspect of the
proposal. There has been no
discussion of budget, or coordination of this new committee, since the
proposal
was passed, the only discussion has been
advocating for the ability to
levy
fines.
-jake
On Sun, 2 Oct 2022, Patrik D'haeseleer wrote:
> I'm in favor of giving this proposal a chance. As Yar said, we can
always
> decide to revoke it again if it turns out
not to work the way we like.
>
> Patrik
>
> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022, 3:27 PM Jake via sudo-discuss <
> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes this is the case, messes need to be addressed and accountability
>> assigned, but I don't think it makes sense to suddenly grant the
power to
>> issue "fines" to a newly
formed committee without having any context
for the
>> specific need for such a thing.
>>
>> So far i've heard a lot of yelling that this is needed, and an
accusation
>> that the Omni Commons is too
"laissez-faire" to function properly,
implying
>> that what we really need is a police
department with an iron fist. I
am not
>> convinced.
>>
>> Kent, as delegate I need to solicit peoples' positions on this
upcoming
>> proposal so please be clear about how
you want our position to be
>> represented.
>>
>> -jake
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Kent Leech via sudo-discuss wrote:
>>
>>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and
diplomacy
>>> can go further. Give the messy group
some time to tidy up and move
on.
>>>
>>> If it's a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up
requests,
>>> then some sort of action by Omni
could be taken.
>>>
>>> -Kent
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Kent Leech Illustration
>>> http://www.kentleech.com
>>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
>>> Committee proposal
>>>
>>>> Hi Sudoroom,
>>>>
>>>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>>>>
>>>> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a
couple
>> of weeks
>>>> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
>>>>
>>>> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
>> failed to
>>>> forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss
our
>> position
>>>> on it.
>>>>
>>>> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our
delegate
>> (which
>>>> is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines
>> against
>>>> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not tried
a
>> process
>>>> of simple communication between a cleaning collective and
>> representatives of
>>>> collectives.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
>> proposal,
>>>> but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new
Committee
>> the
>>>> ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or
individuals they
>>>> determined
>>>> were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as
seen
>> here:
>>>>
>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>>>> yar: if we approve the proposal but delay the fine enforcement until
>> after our
>>>> october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus
>> decision on
>>>> october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
>>>> jake: is ok with that
>>>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
CLP/Billy
>>>> MOP/Jacqi)
>>>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>>>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>>>>
>>>> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed
Committee
>> with
>>>> the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and
>> issue
>>>> "fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied
their
>> standard,
>>>> and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this
>> provision
>>>> even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's
>> objections.
>>>>
>>>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting
on
>> OCTOBER
>>>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our
>> delegate to
>>>> represent us at that meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new Committee
>> (same
>>>> link
>>>> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's
slated
>> for
>>>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>>>>
>>>> -jake
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>>>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>>>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>>>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee
proposal
>>>>
>>>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>>>>
>>>> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal
formulated
>> by the
>>>> Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and
>> instructions
>>>> for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit
the
>> content
>>>> directly.
>>>>
>>>> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee the
>>>> cleanliness of the space, design and implement new systems to do so,
>> including
>>>> a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared
>> spaces and
>>>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated
participant
>> in
>>>> that
>>>> committee, please join us on Slack.
>>>>
>>>> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni
funds to
>> clean
>>>> the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that must
be
>>>> maintained for Omni to exist.
Please check this out and get back
with
>> any
>>>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next
>> delegate's
>>>> meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Billy
>>>> Community Liberation Programs
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing
>> list --
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
>>>>
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
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4 Oct
4 Oct
7:59 a.m.
Good point. I'm putting this on the agenda for tomorrow's Sudo Room meeting.
On Mon, Oct 3, 2022, 3:41 PM Cere Misc via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
If I am reading this conversation correctly, it appears that people don't
have an issue with a group or person monitoring or making recommendations
about building cleanups, but a significant number of people at SudoRoom DO
have an issue with giving a single person or group the power to levy
fines. This entire thread - having now moved in a more volatile direction
- has not moved the needle even a little bit on this question. If Sudo or
Omni wants to consider this proposal further, I recommend we do it off the
list and in an online or in-person meeting.
On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 2:26 PM Yardena Cohen via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
1) Billy's pronouns are they/them
2) the committee HAS begun organizing already, in a public channel on
omni's slack which anybody is welcome to join. ping me with your email
address for an invite to omni slack
3) what is so wrong with the term laissez faire?
4) This proposal is NOT an attempt to target you personally in any
way. It is an attempt to solve real problems related to ongoing work
by the dozens of people who use and maintain common spaces at omni.
It's really really really not about you. Please make better attempts
at resolving your personal problems out of band so they stop leaking
into omni business and wasting everybody else's time.
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jake via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
Patrik, what you're missing about this proposal is that it was made by
someone
who has shown themselves to be too immature to
handle such power.
A while ago Billy got upset because some speakers got moved into the
ballroom
and he felt they were in the way. I responded to
his question about
how they
got moved there and he went on an embarrassing
rampage on the consensus
list,
ending with a threat to unilaterally "get
rid of" the speakers, and
describing
the discussion as a "pissing contest"
(another way to say "penis size
comparison") as seen in this thread (read the whole thing for context):
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-August/003618.html
two weeks later, Billy proposed the "Cleanliness Accountability
Proposal" with
the ability to levy fines against people he
decides have been
irresponsible.
https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2022-September/003634.html
Since the only time i've heard of a conflict about a "mess" being
cleaned up on
any email lists (and i'm on a bunch of them)
has been Billy targeting me
personally, I don't think it makes sense to deputize him to be able to
levy
fines against people.
He also accused us of being "laissez faire" in the meeting since we were
hesitating to pass his proposal. Maybe you didn't notice that.
As for you being in favor of the proposal, the proposal has been passed
with
the sole exception of the ability to levy fines.
The fact that we're
spending
so much energy discussing this one point makes me
question why it's so
much
more important than any other aspect of the
proposal. There has been no
discussion of budget, or coordination of this new committee, since the
proposal
was passed, the only discussion has been
advocating for the ability to
levy
fines.
-jake
On Sun, 2 Oct 2022, Patrik D'haeseleer wrote:
> I'm in favor of giving this proposal a chance. As Yar said, we can
always
> decide to revoke it again if it turns out
not to work the way we like.
>
> Patrik
>
> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022, 3:27 PM Jake via sudo-discuss <
> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes this is the case, messes need to be addressed and accountability
>> assigned, but I don't think it makes sense to suddenly grant the
power to
>> issue "fines" to a newly
formed committee without having any context
for the
>> specific need for such a thing.
>>
>> So far i've heard a lot of yelling that this is needed, and an
accusation
>> that the Omni Commons is too
"laissez-faire" to function properly,
implying
>> that what we really need is a police
department with an iron fist.
I am not
>> convinced.
>>
>> Kent, as delegate I need to solicit peoples' positions on this
upcoming
>> proposal so please be clear about how
you want our position to be
>> represented.
>>
>> -jake
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Kent Leech via sudo-discuss wrote:
>>
>>> Why not just ask the messy groups to clean up first? Kindness and
diplomacy
>>> can go further. Give the messy group
some time to tidy up and move
on.
>>>
>>> If it's a real dysfunctional group that ignores multiple clean-up
requests,
>>> then some sort of action by Omni
could be taken.
>>>
>>> -Kent
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Kent Leech Illustration
>>> http://www.kentleech.com
>>> kent(a)kentleech.com
>>> +1 (510) 504-0634
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Jake Watters via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>>> Reply-To: Jake Watters <typeinthenumber(a)gmail.com>
>>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 2:35 AM
>>> To: <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
>>> Subject: [sudo-discuss] [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability
>>> Committee proposal
>>>
>>>> Hi Sudoroom,
>>>>
>>>> THIS IS IMPORTANT!
>>>>
>>>> The following proposal was brought to the delegate's meeting a
couple
>> of weeks
>>>> ago, and tonight in the meeting it was discussed.
>>>>
>>>> Since I had not been attending delegates meetings for some time, I
>> failed to
>>>> forward this proposal to this list so that sudoroom could discuss
our
>> position
>>>> on it.
>>>>
>>>> Since I am a Sudoroom member, I voiced my position through our
delegate
>> (which
>>>> is me) that I am against giving a committee the power to levy fines
>> against
>>>> omni collectives/tenants/people, especially since we have not
tried a
>> process
>>>> of simple communication between a cleaning collective and
>> representatives of
>>>> collectives.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately the other Omni delegates felt strongly about passing the
>> proposal,
>>>> but they were willing to remove the provision giving the new
Committee
>> the
>>>> ability to "impose a monetary penalty" on groups or
individuals
they
>>>> determined
>>>> were guilty of being messy. The proposal was partially passed as
seen
>> here:
>>>>
>>>>
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2022/09/15_Delegates#cleanliness
>>>> yar: if we approve the proposal
but delay the fine enforcement
until
>> after our
>>>> october 6 meeting, and require another affirmative consensus
>> decision on
>>>> october 6 to give them that fine enforcement power?
>>>> jake: is ok with that
>>>> CONSENSUS: YES (CCL/Patrik ANV/Silver SUDOROOM/Jake FNB/Helen
CLP/Billy
>>>> MOP/Jacqi)
>>>> ABSTAIN: (SUDOMESH/Camber)
>>>> BLOCK: (none), PASSES!
>>>>
>>>> I personally think it's unreasonable to trust a newly formed
Committee
>> with
>>>> the power to, for example, determine that Sudoroom is too messy and
>> issue
>>>> "fines" of $50 per day until they feel that we have satisfied
their
>> standard,
>>>> and I'm glad that the other delegates were willing to remove this
>> provision
>>>> even though they were technically capable of overriding sudoroom's
>> objections.
>>>>
>>>> This provision is set to be reintroduced at the Delegate's meeting
on
>> OCTOBER
>>>> 6TH and Sudoroom needs to discuss our position, in order for our
>> delegate to
>>>> represent us at that meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Please see the link below for the proposed text of the new
Committee
>> (same
>>>> link
>>>> is in the meeting notes above) and discuss the provision that's
slated
>> for
>>>> October 6th Delegate's meeting.
>>>>
>>>> -jake
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:08:55 +0000
>>>> From: deskhandle <deskhandle(a)protonmail.com>
>>>> To: consensus <consensus(a)lists.omnicommons.org>
>>>> Subject: [omni-consensus] Cleanliness Accountability Committee
proposal
>>>>
>>>> https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/GcTDiTZqA3ao5+6hbaAuobdc/
>>>>
>>>> At the delegate's meeting tonight, we discussed a proposal
formulated
>> by the
>>>> Events team which is linked above. This is a draft proposal and
>> instructions
>>>> for how to suggest edits are on top of the doc. Please do not edit
the
>> content
>>>> directly.
>>>>
>>>> In short, it exists to create a new committee which will oversee
the
>>>> cleanliness of the space, design
and implement new systems to do
so,
>> including
>>>> a monetary penalty for any space left out of order for both shared
>> spaces and
>>>> tenant spaces. If you're able to be an active and dedicated
participant
>> in
>>>> that
>>>> committee, please join us on Slack.
>>>>
>>>> This committee would also be able to spend some amount of Omni
funds to
>> clean
>>>> the space regularly and keep it at a level of cleanliness that
must be
>>>> maintained for Omni to exist.
Please check this out and get back
with
>> any
>>>> thoughts, concerns, suggestions before it's voted on at the next
>> delegate's
>>>> meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Billy
>>>> Community Liberation Programs
>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
mailing
>> list --
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org More options at
>>>>
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
>> More options at
>>
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
>
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More options at 
2 Oct
2 Oct
3:37 p.m.
The proposal of fine-levying powers for the newly formed Cleanliness Accountability
Committee is ill-conceived. Levying, or threatening to levy (symbolic and unenforceable),
cash fines against individuals and collectives at the Omni will not bring about cleaner
spaces, greater engagement or an atmosphere of collective support among our membership.
I am completely in favor of organized cooperative efforts to improve conditions at the
Omni. However, the way to accomplish this is through purposeful restorative organization
and mutual support, not through the establishment of a penal body charged with surveilling
and making judgments against our collectives and their membership.
Why not first empower this newly formed group to earnestly apply only nonviolent methods
to realize their excellent purpose? Rashly burdening the Cleanliness Accountability
Committee with power over others will be effective only in fostering an environment of
score-keeping, conflict, and disharmony among the people of the Omni.
4:01 p.m.
I want to point out that this shy person who wrote this is a sudoroom member
who has been putting TONS of work into cleaning and organizing sudoroom over
the past year, including helping me clean up a really nasty rat corner.
-jake
On Sun, 2 Oct 2022, SudoVanta--- via sudo-discuss wrote:
The proposal of fine-levying powers for the newly
formed Cleanliness Accountability Committee is ill-conceived. Levying, or threatening to
levy (symbolic and unenforceable), cash fines against individuals and collectives at the
Omni will not bring about cleaner spaces, greater engagement or an atmosphere of
collective support among our membership.
I am completely in favor of organized cooperative efforts to improve conditions at the
Omni. However, the way to accomplish this is through purposeful restorative organization
and mutual support, not through the establishment of a penal body charged with surveilling
and making judgments against our collectives and their membership.
Why not first empower this newly formed group to earnestly apply only nonviolent methods
to realize their excellent purpose? Rashly burdening the Cleanliness Accountability
Committee with power over others will be effective only in fostering an environment of
score-keeping, conflict, and disharmony among the people of the Omni.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
More options at https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
5:22 p.m.
I've been coming to Sudoroom since 2017 but my involvement has been more intensive
over the past few years. Honestly, cleaning and organizing our space has been really
rewarding for me. I feel like the effort I put into making the space better directly
correlates with more people showing up each week and becoming Sudoroom members!
So far, I've linked up with two other Sudoroom members and we've agreed to meet up
weekly to work on the space. Other Omni members have noticed the improvements and
approached me about joining in on weekly maintenance parties. These experiences give me
conviction that cooperative action, communication, and peer support are the way to improve
both Sudoroom and the Omni itself.
There is obviously still much more work to do, but we've improved so much already! The
needed work of cleaning and organizing is not hard per se but it is work that is best
shared. I am hopeful that the CAC will ultimately do the sort of community building work
that I am doing. I'm working to make Sudoroom the best, most functional, and most
welcoming hackerspace it can be! I do this not because I'm being coerced or threatened
with fines by some would-be cleanliness enforcer but because I believe in the space, the
people, and the mission.
Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 4:01 PM, Jake via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
I want to point out that this shy person who wrote
this is a sudoroom member
who has been putting TONS of work into cleaning and organizing sudoroom over
the past year, including helping me clean up a really nasty rat corner.
-jake
On Sun, 2 Oct 2022, SudoVanta--- via sudo-discuss wrote:
The proposal of fine-levying powers for the newly
formed Cleanliness Accountability Committee is ill-conceived. Levying, or threatening to
levy (symbolic and unenforceable), cash fines against individuals and collectives at the
Omni will not bring about cleaner spaces, greater engagement or an atmosphere of
collective support among our membership.
I am completely in favor of organized cooperative efforts to improve conditions at the
Omni. However, the way to accomplish this is through purposeful restorative organization
and mutual support, not through the establishment of a penal body charged with surveilling
and making judgments against our collectives and their membership.
Why not first empower this newly formed group to earnestly apply only nonviolent methods
to realize their excellent purpose? Rashly burdening the Cleanliness Accountability
Committee with power over others will be effective only in fostering an environment of
score-keeping, conflict, and disharmony among the people of the Omni.
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
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3 Oct
3 Oct
2:01 p.m.
I’m in favor.
It seems like a structurally sensible response to a genuine problem. I
don’t see the monetary element as penal: it seems like a reasonable
response if an area is unable to limit trash that can worsen the rodent
problem to require them to furnish funds to help mitigate the consequence
of that.
Also, I’m not concerned about the consequence because I don’t foresee us
reaching that point. We have issues with mess, but I think they’re largely
internal issues of organization, not the kind of mess that would affect the
rest of the building. Also, they seem to be getting a lot better. So if
they wanna have this power I don’t mind giving it to them because I don’t
plan to ever be on the receiving end of it.
I think this is a recurring theme: the delegates board proposes new powers
and people fret over the potential for abuse. It kind of seems like a
tempest in a teapot to me. If someone really wants to go powermad I think
they would have a very hard time doing it, so it matters little to me what
any petty tyrant might conceivably want to be able to do. No one can really
force us to give them money, and we rarely even have enough of it for
someone to take. And aren’t these the same people who’ve forgiven thousands
of dollars of our debt? It seems silly to worry about them financially
abusing us. Oh: and also the building might be repossessed in three months.
Ultimately, I just don’t feel strongly about this. But if it’s a big deal
to others, I don’t want to dismiss that. Can we suggest a compromise? A
limit of $20 per day? Would that be satisfactory to everyone?
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 5:31 PM E via sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org>
wrote:
I've been coming to Sudoroom since 2017 but my
involvement has been more
intensive over the past few years. Honestly, cleaning and organizing our
space has been really rewarding for me. I feel like the effort I put into
making the space better directly correlates with more people showing up
each week and becoming Sudoroom members!
So far, I've linked up with two other Sudoroom members and we've agreed to
meet up weekly to work on the space. Other Omni members have noticed the
improvements and approached me about joining in on weekly maintenance
parties. These experiences give me conviction that cooperative action,
communication, and peer support are the way to improve both Sudoroom and
the Omni itself.
There is obviously still much more work to do, but we've improved so much
already! The needed work of cleaning and organizing is not hard per se but
it is work that is best shared. I am hopeful that the CAC will ultimately
do the sort of community building work that I am doing. I'm working to make
Sudoroom the best, most functional, and most welcoming hackerspace it can
be! I do this not because I'm being coerced or threatened with fines by
some would-be cleanliness enforcer but because I believe in the space, the
people, and the mission.
Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 4:01 PM, Jake via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
--
*Andrew R Gross, (he/him)*
412.657.5332 - shrad.org <http://www.shrad.org>
I want to point out that this shy person who
wrote this is a sudoroom
member
who has been putting TONS of work into cleaning
and organizing sudoroom
over
the past year, including helping me clean up a
really nasty rat corner.
-jake
On Sun, 2 Oct 2022, SudoVanta--- via sudo-discuss wrote:
> The proposal of fine-levying powers for the newly formed Cleanliness
Accountability Committee is ill-conceived. Levying, or threatening to levy
(symbolic and unenforceable), cash fines against individuals and
collectives at the Omni will not bring about cleaner spaces, greater
engagement or an atmosphere of collective support among our membership.
>
> I am completely in favor of organized cooperative efforts to improve
conditions at the Omni. However, the way to accomplish this is through
purposeful restorative organization and mutual support, not through the
establishment of a penal body charged with surveilling and making judgments
against our collectives and their membership.
>
> Why not first empower this newly formed group to earnestly apply only
nonviolent methods to realize their excellent purpose? Rashly burdening the
Cleanliness Accountability Committee with power over others will be
effective only in fostering an environment of score-keeping, conflict, and
disharmony among the people of the Omni.
>
_______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
> More options at
https://sudoroom.org/lists/postorius/lists/sudo-discuss.sudoroom.org/
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569
days inactive
574
days old
19 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Andrew R Gross -
Cere Misc -
E -
Jake -
Jake Watters -
Kent Leech -
Patrik D'haeseleer -
SudoVanta＠proton.me
-
Yardena Cohen