Re: [sudo-discuss] Power: nyms, part 1: improper nouns.

Rachel, Your defensive explanation of why you said what you did completely misses the point, sucking all the air out of the room. People always have reasoning for why they did what they did. Requiring offended folks to read about your reasoning for why you said what you said misses the point, devalues your apology, and to me makes the conversation read like you don't care if you were offensive. Don't take refuge in a pattern of defense. It doesn't matter what you've been thinking about, or talking about, or your experiences, or what you meant, or who was sent to the chambers, or what your heritage is. It doesn't. As fun as you may find it to think about, the way things are *heard*, by others, NOW, is a trump card for many. In the future, try harder to modulate your behavior to be less offensive. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 11:03 AM, rachel lyra hospodar <rachelyra(a)gmail.com > Hey eddan, > > I'm sorry. > > I wasn't trying to make any particular point about behavioral standards, > or to act out, just making poorly-thought-out remarks about a group I > identify with. Ironic, I guess. > > It's a big, diverse group, and i'd guess that most of my experiences > within it are pretty different than yours. > > I have been thinking/talking about circumcision a lot in other contexts > and didn't really think about the way my comments would affect you, or > generally be read by someone whose relationship to Judaism varies so widely > from my own. > > Apologies. > > (some catholics were sent to the chambers as well, along with queers, and > other misfits....as long as we're calling out my heritage and tracking > where my hypothetical allegiances lie. and I wasn't alluding to a zionist > conspiracy so much as attempting to examine critically the various strands > of my cultural heritage, and the stories I hear from people about their > lives... thinking more about social acceptance on personal levels than any > sort of global conspiracy. I learned about slavery and the holocaust > side-by-side in school, and saw no difference in describing them as the > wages of hate applied towards the kin of everyone in my classroom. I've > spent a lot of time, then and since, wondering at the ways that I and my > peers are affected by these pasts, and differing presents.) > On May 4, 2013 3:50 PM, "Eddan Katz" <eddan(a)clear.net> wrote: > >> Most Jewish people I know who go through the ceremonial Brit Milah >> (circumcision) at 8 days after the birth of a son understand it as the >> first covenant with God. Even when doing such a thing to your son would >> significantly increase the likelihood of him being murdered, as in during >> the Holocaust, parents continued to do that for their children as part of >> their fundamental beliefs in this world. I have more nuanced notions and >> struggle with the meaning of it, as I do with most things, but that's >> besides the point. >> >> Suggesting that (from the first person accounts you've heard from ...) >> it is an intentional part of a world-historical plan to unwillingly dupe >> modern governments, and incidentally doctors who point to a lot of evidence >> about health benefits - that takes some balls (pun intended). It is that >> same kind of rhetoric that made it easier for some of your European >> ancestry to systematically murder 80% of the two generations before me. >> According to most accounts in the world (outside the US), anti-semitism has >> increased dramatically, especially since the myth that Jews orchestrated >> 9/11 as 'an inside job' has been openly perpetuated in too many places. >> >> So I know you well enough to know that you struggle hard against the >> discriminations prevalent in the world to respect you. But those nonsense >> two paragraphs scribbled below is vile horseshit (no offense to people who >> love horses). >> >> I know you're not personally responsible for the comprehensive >> dehumanization, murder, and theft of all my great-aunts and great-uncles >> and all their parents and friends. But I've stood at the site where 15,000 >> Jews were killed over a matter of two days right outside the town of >> Vilkaviski, Lithuania - and I will never know who and how many we're of my >> family (my grandparents had escaped to the British colony of Palestine). >> >> I also know you're half-Jewish, and I'm sorry if I've outed you. I >> didn't see you at last years World Jewish Conspiracy meeting (there's no >> such thing, by the way). I just wanted to demonstrate what I meant by the >> trump card notion, which is different for me than how you understood it. >> What you described sounds more like solipsism to me. I can trump you in >> terms of horrible and violent and insensitive things that have been done to >> my ancestors and in terms of things my immediate family has experienced. >> >> But that's precisely why I think a battle to identify with who's been >> more oppressed and the identity politics that ensue, are not helpful to >> present-day, you and me, and all the other Sudo folk I know. I think we >> should all try to be respectful of each other. And that no one has any >> special rights to offend any other of us. And I do care if I've offended >> you, whether or not I am part of the designated oppressor class for that >> particular scenario. I'm sorry to see you say that you don't care if you >> offend me. >> >> With great respect to my friend Rachel. >> -Eddan >> >> >> >> On May 4, 2013, at 11:04 AM, rachel lyra hospodar <rachelyra(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> One of the ways Jews maintained cultural cohesion is through a >> systematic mutilation of their children that, while overtly hidden, marked >> them as separate from the culture around them. >> >> In this context it is interesting that the US has mainstreamed >> circumcision, and based on first person reports I have heard, in some ways >> this does contribute to a global drop in anti-semitism, which increases >> cultural diffusion. >> >> Re gender assumptions, 'someday' we 'might' move beyond... feel free to >> stop making them at any time. That is something you can do that would help >> with our cultural evolution. People often keep their name, for all the >> other reasons elucidated here, even when some of its markers are outdated >> or overtly misfit. I know female-bodied people who go by male-marked names. >> Move past your assumptions. >> >> Further discussion of names might be informed through reference to >> neuroscience, as our name is encoded pretty deeply in the brain, and we >> respond to it with a unique signature even in sleep. >> >> R. >> On May 4, 2013 10:28 AM, "GtwoG PublicOhOne" <g2g-public01(a)att.net> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Steve & Yo's- >>> >>> Yes and yes. Similarly in a range of ethnicities: name-constructions >>> such as "Peterson" implying or directly meaning "Peter's son" (and in some >>> parts of Northern Europe at least, similarly for "daughter") or a >>> geographic origin (last name prefixes that mean "from" or "of" referring to >>> a city or a family or clan: common all over Europe), or including both the >>> mother's family name and the father's family name (common in Central >>> America). >>> >>> All of these are deeply meaningful in establishing that one is related >>> to others and connected to a wider web. But today those social relations >>> are strung across countries, continents, and the globe, where solidarity >>> and mutual support can be difficult at best. >>> >>> To be clear: I don't want to throw away all of those babies with the >>> surveillance-dystopia bathwater. In many ways I'm very square and very >>> traditional. But the future we face is one where we are f-o-o-d for the >>> oligarchy, and social relations are subordinated to economic relations, >>> unless we make a concerted effort to overturn the economic relations and >>> assert the primacy of the social relations. >>> >>> Now something just occurred to me, and the following may be in the "not >>> even wrong" category, but none the less I'd be interested in what you have >>> to say about this: >>> >>> The Jewish people were until recently a complete diaspora, "strung >>> across countries, continents, and the globe" at times when there were >>> effectively no rapid communications as there are today. Yet somehow the >>> Jewish community on a global scale managed a degree of resilience that is >>> truly amazing, including during the Holocaust. >>> >>> We can learn from that. >>> >>> Somewhere in that history are important lessons that we can apply in >>> our present struggle with an oligarchy that is downright benign in >>> comparison to the types and degrees of oppression and existential threats >>> faced by the Jews throughout history. >>> >>> Is this something that can be taught and learned, or is it only >>> something that can be inherited over the course of generations of history? >>> And if the former, then how can we begin to understand the lessons? >>> >>> I'll be AFK until this evening but I'll pick up the thread then. >>> >>> -G. >>> >>> >>> ===== >>> >>> >>> On 13-05-04-Sat 10:04 AM, Steve Berl wrote: >>> >>> Seems to me that traditional Jewish convey family connections, and >>> geography. So until very recent times in history, to my Jewish ancestors, I >>> would be Steve, son of Lou (and Benay added in more modern times), from New >>> York. It helps to identify just which Steve you are talking about when >>> gossiping about Steve, and just what social connections there might be >>> between Steve and other people. So the name evokes questions like, Oh, your >>> from New York, do you know xxxx? Or Lou is your father. Are you related to >>> my 3rd cousin Fred, who has a brother name Lou? >>> >>> Humans are social animals and our social connections are important. >>> You are you because of some combination of what you do, who you know, and >>> who you are related to. Encoding some of that information in the name has >>> been a convenience developed over the past 10,000 or so years, and we >>> should consider carefully whether you are ready to throw it away. >>> >>> -steve >>> >>> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:07 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <g2g-public01(a)att.net >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Aestetix & Yo's- >>>> >>>> Names are nouns, but I puzzle over the term "proper noun," because a >>>> name is an arbitrary character-string that only appears noun-like because >>>> we say so. A "proper" type of noun should be one with some degree of >>>> linguistic meaning, for example through etymology ("bike" is a contraction >>>> of "bicycle", that has "two things that rotate", from which we also derive >>>> "motorcycle" that is also colloquially a "bike"), and names should be >>>> "improper nouns" because they don't follow that rule. >>>> >>>> The linguistic meaning of "given names" is limited, though perhaps >>>> sufficient for their historic purposes. Conventionally they convey gender, >>>> which is only useful in remotely assessing whether someone is a potential >>>> sex-partner. By geographic origin they often convey ethnicity, though this >>>> is starting to break down through cultural mixing (most of us are mutts, >>>> with two or more ethnicities in our families). Sometimes they convey >>>> religion, usually by inference from geographic origin or resemblance to >>>> historic names identified with specific religions. At one time they >>>> conveyed occupation, as with "Baker" and "Smith," though thankfully we have >>>> overcome mandatory hereditary assignment of jobs. >>>> >>>> There was a time when we could infer, for example, that "John Smith" >>>> was almost certainly male, probably Christian ("John" as Biblical name), >>>> and probably an ironworker ("blacksmith"). Bluntly put, this would tell >>>> you whether John Smith was someone you could mate with, someone with whom >>>> that mating would be approved by your own church, and where he stood in the >>>> socio-economic hierarchy. The use of "Miss" and "Mrs." for women ("Miss >>>> Jane Smith") further emphasized that in a patriarchial culture, males had a >>>> prerogative of ascertaining the eligibility of females as mating partners. >>>> >>>> >>>> Today all we can be reasonably sure of is that John Smith is male. He >>>> might be a Buddhist or an atheist by his own choice, and he probably works >>>> at a desk rather than a forge, and his ethnicity might be a combination of >>>> English, French, Kenyan, and Chinese for all we know. >>>> >>>> Some day perhaps we'll have to guess at John Smith's gender. That >>>> would be progress. >>>> >>>> -G. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13-05-03-Fri 11:30 PM, aestetix wrote: >>>> >>>> You've opened a can of worms here :) >>>> >>>> Since elucidated discussion seems to be the modus operandi lately, I >>>> have a few thoughts on this matter that are worth contributing. Feel >>>> free to ignore at your pleasure (free listening is just as important >>>> as free speech). >>>> >>>> I think that the two key elements of your essays, food and power, are >>>> rather interchangeable depending on the contexts. It's (hopefully) >>>> obvious why we need food. Power in a more abstract sense is >>>> fascinating to me, though. Other words that come to mind are drive, >>>> charisma, persuasion, but also intellect, and most important, control. >>>> >>>> IMHO, one of the most fundamental elements of control is language, as >>>> shared patterns are effectively a way to communicate and attain >>>> various levels of self-mastery. An easy way to experience this is to >>>> try to understand a foreign language: there might be some hints of >>>> familiarity within the chaos, and as we find them, it's a bit like >>>> setting markers around, and using the markers to control the direction >>>> of your ultimate understanding. You can extend that to vocabulary and >>>> concepts as well. One of the hallmarks of a good education is the >>>> ability to curse someone out without using the generic "fuck shit >>>> damn" slurs. >>>> >>>> Language is composed of words, symbols which point to meanings, and >>>> one of the most interesting set of words is our names. And you all can >>>> guess where I'm going with this one ;) >>>> >>>> Hail Eris, >>>> aestetix >>>> >>>> PS: it might be worth doing another cryptoparty soon. >>>> >>>> On 5/3/13 7:58 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> > 2) Where the power is, and where it isn't. >>>> >>>> > Now we come to the proletariat and the lumpenproletariat. >>>> >>>> > For this, credit also goes to a good friend of mine who I won't >>>> > name here, but who's welcome to name him/herself if s/he so >>>> > chooses: s/he got me thinking down this trail a few months ago. >>>> >>>> > The proletariat is the working class: basically defined as people >>>> > who have full-time jobs or at least jobs that provide sufficient >>>> > income for the core necessities (shelter, clothing, food, >>>> > transportation, sanitation, communication), but who have little or >>>> > no ownership stake. This includes people who are in business for >>>> > themselves, but earning a working class income: they own their >>>> > employment, but their economic wellbeing is at the same level as >>>> > that of a wage-worker. >>>> >>>> > The lumpenproletariat is the level below that: basically defined >>>> > as people whose employment is marginal at best, and whose access to >>>> > the basic necessities is frequently interrupted in some way. The >>>> > unemployed, homeless, couch-surfers (another form of >>>> > homelessness), people who live at the margins of the law in order >>>> > to survive, and people who earn their livings on criminal activity. >>>> > This also includes wage-workers whose wage income is not sufficient >>>> > to provide their basic necessities from month to month: they have >>>> > jobs, but their economic wellbeing is at the same level as that of >>>> > someone who's marginally employed at best. >>>> >>>> > Decades ago, the Bay Area left/radical community made the deadly >>>> > strategic error of embracing the (essentially Maoist) analysis that >>>> > the lumpenproletariat is the revolutionary class. This error >>>> > continues to this day, in the ideology of Black Block tactics, >>>> > which are founded on the idea that expressing rage and provoking >>>> > police over-reaction will somehow spark The Revolution. >>>> >>>> > The very same tactic in more obviously violent form pops up in the >>>> > ideology of the extreme right: such as the Hutaree, a group that >>>> > was busted by the FBI for planning to shoot a bunch of cops and >>>> > then set off bombs at their funerals, in the attempt to provoke >>>> > martial law and thereby set off a "revolution" from the extreme >>>> > right. >>>> >>>> > But here's the nexus of the problem: >>>> >>>> > To the oligarchy, the lumpenproletariat is disposable: their roles >>>> > in production and consumption are so minimal that they can be >>>> > totally disregarded. They have NO power. N-O power. As >>>> > individuals or as any kind of collectivity or class. >>>> >>>> > When a social movement identifies with the lumpenproletariat >>>> > and/or attempts to organize the lumpenproletariat, the movement >>>> > effectively short-circuits its efforts into something that is >>>> > inherently doomed to failure. They may as well be trying to >>>> > organize the squirrels on the Cal Berkeley campus to strike for >>>> > better teaching-assistant salaries. How seriously do you think the >>>> > UC Regents would take the threat of a squirrel strike? >>>> >>>> > The proletariat is where the power is: the power to produce and >>>> > consume at the level that drives the engine of oligarchy, is also >>>> > the power to refuse consent in a meaningful way. >>>> >>>> > The power of the proletariat takes two forms: >>>> >>>> > One, the power to remove themselves from the oligarch's engines of >>>> > production: by going on strike (which translates to the power of >>>> > collective bargaining), by going into business for themselves, and >>>> > by developing alternatives to conventional capitalism such as >>>> > cooperatives and other forms of production that subordinate capital >>>> > to labor. >>>> >>>> > Two, the power to remove themselves from the oligarch's >>>> > consumption matrix: by boycotts (consumer strikes), by >>>> > anti-materialist or "simple living" principles that reduce >>>> > consumption levels (the equivalent of consumer general strikes), by >>>> > shifting their consumption to alternative institutions such as >>>> > coops, credit unions, and small local producers (e.g. buying >>>> > veggies at the farmers' market rather than Safeway), and very >>>> > importantly for _us_ as hackers/makers/etc., the power to build >>>> > for our own use. >>>> >>>> > This is real power. It's the power that makes the oligarchs quake >>>> > in their boots and have nightmares. And it's the power that gives >>>> > the oligarchs strong incentive to keep us distracted, digressed, >>>> > and disempowered by wasting our time trying to organize a squirrel >>>> > strike. >>>> >>>> > -G. >>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss >>>> > mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>>> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sudo-discuss mailing list >>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -steve >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sudo-discuss mailing list >>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> sudo-discuss mailing list >> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >> >> > _______________________________________________ > sudo-discuss mailing list > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss > >