Re: [sudo-discuss] Fwd: Server Room Status

Please don't misconstrue my language. If folks are participating in good faith, and they are not met with sincere appreciation (not just rhetoric), they will no longer be interested in participating. People who are willing to help will walk away if they do not feel like it is worth their time. I do not have interest in working on the physical network for the building at this point. It seems like some other(s) may be able to manage it fine on their own. Anyone else interested? // Matt p.s. Nothing has been definitive in this topic. What I was hoping to achieve with Daniel was a clear, succinct proposal to bring back to everyone. The presumption from David has been that "we" (sudo?) just want to railroad over everyone, despite protests from me (and others) about this false assumption. I find this situation to be based on an assumption of bad faith (despite the "good faith" rhetoric) since "we" (sudo?) are "colonizing" the building (or something?)--not "improving" it or "participating" in it. Willingness to hear a proposal does not imply commitment. Obsession with deflecting the possibility of a proposal is _silencing_ and is a practice that drains communities of their energy. On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:21 PM, niki <niki.shelley(a)gmail.com> wrote: Whoah, y'all! I think the main issue here is that the people involved w/Backspace aren't being included in this conversation. It may very well be that that space cannot be converted into a consultation room for Backspace, but those who may be affected by that should at least be given a chance to participate in a dialogue about whatever it is that ends up happening and what that will mean for their ability to practice in the building. Saying things like "Can't wait to see the plans..." / "Good luck!" feels like a real personal attack and really unnecessary / unsupportive - especially when it's being directed towards one person because they are the member of Backspace who happens to be on this particular mailing list. Especially when that one person agreed to come on board to help Backspace as an act of mutual aid. I also feel like questions that have been put forth in good faith such as, "Why can't the server racks be stored in Sudo?" have not been answered. If there's a good reason, that's awesome. All I'm hearing, however, is a lack of willingness to have a conversation about potentially repurposing a space that another group had planned on using and all of the reasons why this is the only / best space for the server racks. I think that's all anyone's asking for! An opportunity to participate in the dialogue and an explanation as to why this space must be used for this purpose over any other space. Love, Niki ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: MATTHEW SENATE <mattsenate(a)gmail.com> Date: Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status To: David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> Cc: "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org> David, Great, looking forward to you setting up the network somewhere as well as building out that store room in some way or other. Can't wait to see the plans, approval, and funding for the store room. Maybe in the next 4-6 months? You may want to note what Daniel said about 4ft of clearance (or similar) around those electrical panels. I think this may be the page of regulations: https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&am… [1] Wow, that's going to be a lot of work. Good luck! // Matt On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 5:48 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> wrote: Jeez.. Matt, do you require all of the Backspace Wellness Collective to join sudo-discuss email list to have this discussion collectively (and therefore, productively), or inter-collectively as the case may be? We are not all on Sudo's email list. Yes, I am on sudo's list, therefore I am responding on behalf of many members of Backspace, because I, unlike You, am in communication with all members of that collective whom are, unlike You (or Sudo since You speak for all of us Sudoers?), most likely negatively affected by this proposition. But this discussion really should take place at the Omni meeting and/or on the omnilogistics list, or at the very least, on backspace's list or at their meeting, since You are talking about building something in Backspace, not the other way around... if that makes sense? This area you are speaking of is not Backspace 'with plans' to use that room - any more than Sudo has 'plans' to use its room: Sudo is already in that room, and Backspace is are already in their area too (a small cluster of rooms). The area is clearly marked on the floorplan as Backspace and this use has been discussed numerous times in meetings for a long time, as has its rehabilitation, because its in poor shape. Backspace is a small group with an enormous burden of tasks with respect to rehabing that space and getting operations up and running. Sudo is a comparatively large group with comparatively far less to do in Sudo's own space to be functional. Backspace has a LOT to do with far less resources, and I would ask that folks be kind to Backspace when demanding things like build dates. Build dates are only a part of the timeline. What it (worryingly to me) feels like is that You are insinuating is that this is not Backspace, it is rather Your space to do whatever You think is best with it. The corollary to this is that Backspace's existence is itself also merely a 'plan' - I assure you, it is not only that. That you do not go to Backspace meetings, doesnt mean that it, or the people in it, do not exist. Yes, it is new, like the cafe, but it is also been a part of the omni project for a while with all of the real life effort that entails. Please lets all be kind to one another? We have only been in the building one week. There is a lot of shared space in the Omni, and I think its fair to say that a really compelling case has to be made if you need to build something in someone else's space, rather than Sudo's own space or in shared space. In addition, I would guess it would not be not clear to backspace that a rack of servers anywhere in the building actually will necessarily benefit them or anyone else that is not Sudo. Pretty much the only thing I can think if controlling door access and building-related infrastructure like a couple of switches, maybe an AP controller. Does that take a whole rack? Everything is Sudo. What I would suggest is that several possibilities for a rack outside of Sudo are explored and planned, and that the options are presented at the Omnilogistics meeting so they can be discussed by everyone, not just Sudoers. Does that seem fair? On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com> wrote: So what you are saying is that You (on behalf of Backspace) have plans to add improvements to that room (at some point soon, requiring approval from the landlord and financed presumably by Backspace). Further, that You (on behalf of backspace with plans for using that room) do not want any network devices or other omni-wide usage in that space since you'll both be building in it and using it in some way for Backspace after you are done building in it. Is that correct? If so, what are the anticipated the build dates? And what stage are you at in terms of approvals? And what stage are you at in terms of financing? Thanks, Matt On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:29 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> wrote: I agree with you Matt 1000% on assuming good faith. I am super pleased that people take it upon themselves to tend to all that needs doing - it was in the first line of my first two initial emails on this project. Putting servers into backspace right now may seems like the easiest / OSPF as a temporary, provisional measure for a couple of days.. I wonder, will it be just as easy to remove them in a few days when we begin laying up drywall in there and start refinishing that room, filling it with debris? After the room is finished, if the servers are too loud for sudo/ccl 's 3.2k sq ft room - how loud do you think it will sound in a room a fraction the size with practitioners in it trying to treat folks with ailments, or get a relaxing tuia-na massage, or meditate, or quietly work / read etc? A absolutely central idea of backspace is being a quiet space, while 41U of servers sounds not unlike a jet engine in my experience. Y'all, I really do have sudo's best interests at heart, and I would urge everyone reading this that expressing concerns like these is not any attempt to stomp on our collective creative do-o-cratic urges, but simply an good-hearted attempt, however adumbrated or limited it may be, to be practical and thoughtful by incorporating germane variables into a viable server room plan that might lie outside your current matrix. On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com> wrote: Don't micro-manage creativity. Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems right now; this will not always be true. Assume good faith. This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions are: What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very soon. What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for network devices, without intractable costs. What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are convenient and already appropriate for setting up network devices (fast, easy) and (b) places that allow for integrating network devices into the heating/cooling systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require coordination, approval, and implementation with potential extra costs). What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity. In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon as possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems. // Matt On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> wrote: (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into the basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.) On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> wrote: Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the blower from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap. On the west side, there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus windows above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the barr-room bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool air (without a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could pull cool air from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent heat from the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces use, or vent heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent perhaps to that lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C from the compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of the time. In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go - needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC. It's a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help sorting out, and I would really love it if we could. As others have stated, we need a working group just for the basement and space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another equally pressing aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may be a good idea to set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but I am open to suggestions about how best to comprise this. Love David On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hi all, Again I am _super_ psyched that we are tackling where to rack servers and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort into this. Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use others' space and shared space, I feel the only real missing piece in the discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much _every_ member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any other group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building - especially for their very own space which they have already been promised are technically in possession of. _For sure_, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible place things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack should _not_ go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in the building, I think that's a conversation that should include others in the building too, not just sudoers, because it affects others' planning and use of space. The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any build-out, and all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC as a whole. This doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings - its simply a way to try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert with other groups in the space. For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack into what is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace), that particular conversation should be had with that group from the get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the building with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take place _only_ on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or _only_ with other sudoers (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a lot of work - apparently, many people can only envision as a place for garbage, or to get to utility panels. Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does not mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage here compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and _time_ to do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the building. I mean, Backspace has far more intense permitting and structural issues to address - we're getting architectural drawings (I had the architect over yesterday partly for this reason), and planning it out thoughtfully - this is not going to happen in one week or even one month. Also, Backspacers are a much smaller, newer group than Sudo, in which almost everyone has day jobs and simply can't be there alla the time - they are not on sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at least any more than all of sudo should be on backspace's list. For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers / bodyworkers, in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah. So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be discussed extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying to any group wanting to build out in another group's space. As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal discussions about how articulate their model, including how best to build out, refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if you blow away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a different use, you are also potentially actually talking about removing an individual from Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think it might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into backspace in that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there that you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I mean here. Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also be had with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the omnilogistics list), especially if you see the servers as serving the entire building, not just sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too - easily enough done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.) Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine sudo will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on things, install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should be in a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for permitting issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The electrical panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never entered unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of power and solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning re: circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that, and then the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for safety's sake if nothing else. My 2c. Best, David On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <luis.murillo.plos(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some errands/TCB will swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-) On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <somebody(a)riseup.net> wrote: Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh list was not linked from the first email that I sent out. Thx! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700 From: hol(a)gaskill.com To: David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> CC: sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx are good for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot things may be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool air and letting convection do the work. if there's no objection, we could set up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run coax to a more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so i'll be around to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic infrastructure cheers On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote: _______________________________________________ mesh mailing list mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh [5] _______________________________________________ mesh mailing list mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh [5]