Regarding negativity... At various hackerspaces I've been to I've had
people abruptly come up to me and rant about their left wing political
cause or gender issues or belief about Gmo food or political party
This is something I do too. I'm becoming more mindful but it's some,thing
to be aware of wig regard to welcoming minorities etc
Getting lectured by a fatherly left wing guy is a common trope for me,...
Sometimes these speeches rub me as paternal and cult like
Peace out and hope everyone is having a great Saturday!!! Rock on
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i confess i have no idea how to properly edit the membership wiki to add
my ideas.
So i will just type them here, and maybe someone can help me put them into
the wiki properly.
Sudo room/membership
Do we have it?
I think sudoroom does not currently have a membership structure in place.
We are currently existing in a (most of the time) benevolent anarchy,
resulting from equal parts luck, hard work by caring people, and security
by obscurity.
I think we SHOULD have membership, which is clearly defined and binary
(either you are a member in good standing, or a nonmember for whatever
reason). There should be a list of members which can be publicly
accessed, with enough information about each member that they can be
identified by any member (a description or picture provided by the member
themselves) since we don't all "know" each other.
I think membership should be something that is in exchange for ONGOING
contribution to the community, as defined (continually) by the membership,
on a person by person basis. For example, $10 per month might be accepted
by one person as sufficient, but another person might be required to pay
$40 per month. Or the group can decide that a persons offer to "clear and
sweep the floor once a week" is sufficient.
Also the community should be able to refuse someone's membership, even if
they are a current member who has been making their required contribution.
Also the community should be able to change the requirement from a person
based on information from them or anyone, to a higher or lower or
different requirement. The community should be able to declare that a
person has not fulfilled their requirement and is, until they return to
that requirement, temporarily not a member.
Does it [membership] confer special privelages?
I think that membership should confer special privelages including access
to the space even if it is closed, for any community-approved uses. A
member can be there when no one else is there if they want to be. Also
while anyone can participate in discussions at meetings, only members can
vote (or block consensus items).
I think a member should be able to "sponsor" a nonmember (or multiple of
them) WHILE they are present in the space. This way nonmembers can use
the space any time a member who supports them is present, which should be
easy for nonmembers who use the space properly in a cooperative way. And
for all nonmembers wanting to use the space, their sponsor can help them
use the space properly.
I think that nonmembers should be nominally granted up to 24 added-up
hours of access to the space without a specific sponsor. This part is
subtle and I urge people to think about the total effect of this "pseudo
policy" before objecting. If a nonmember behaves badly before they have
used up 24 hours they can be asked to leave by a member, of course. And
if a nonmember behaves well it is likely that no one will even point out
when their "24 hours" appears to have expired.
are there expectations of members, do they have responsibilities?
I think that all members should promise not to leave the space open
without a member present. This means that when an awesome nonmember is
working on a project and you're the last member and you want to leave, you
have to decide between staying to help them or asking them to return when
the space is open. It is also a good time to remind them that by
contributing in a community-approved way, they can have 24-7 access.
One reason for members making this promise to each other is because
members have accountability to one another, and were approved at a
meeting, and can be contacted with questions by other members, and can be
trusted. However that trust does not extend to strangers and we must
respect the process of meetings and accountability when we are not present
to act as an advocate or translator for a nonmember we want to support.
Some practical reasons for not allowing nonmembers in the space alone
include security of property and materials, projects and tools. But also,
the organization of the space and functionality of it is tied to human
effort to make it a usable space. People who are members are contributors
to the space in one way or another, and they contribute toward the
usability of the space. It isn't fair to our fellow contributors to allow
others to use and take from that space when we ourselves are not willing
to supervise our own guests' use of the space.
How do you become a member?
People who want to become a member of the space must meet members of the
space and learn about membership and the space. They need to announce to
the membership, through the discuss list, that they want to become a
member and answer responses to their post so that members who might come
to a meeting will be satisfied with their reasons for wanting to join.
Also, use of the mailinglist demonstrates a basic ability to communicate
and be accountable to other members in case they are accepted.
After making their desires known, they will come to meetings to get to
know people, and announce that they would like to become a member. They
can discuss with the group what kind of contribution they feel comfortable
making, based on their income or free time levels, and in the case of
nonmonetary contributions, how they propose their contributions be tracked
(could be an email declaring that they cleaned the space at 3PM today and
saw certain members there who saw it happen)
I think that we should not do like noisebridge and expect a secret
discussion, or expect a specific timeline for consideration of membership.
If a person makes their bid for membership on the list and shows up to the
nearest meeting after that, they should not expect to achieve membership
for at least another week while the possiblity for objections is there.
At their first meeting the announcement having been made, one week should
be sufficient time for the membership to bring out any uncertainties.
If a person is a member of the space, they should not have any less
accountability to the space than a nonmember (on the contrary). This
means that a member can be discussed at a meeting for questionable
behavior and if necessary, have their membership revoked by the group.
Consensus Minus One would be nice for this purpose but is too limiting in
practice, because we hackers tend to be contrary and side with the
underdog to a fault. If a large portion of the membership agrees that a
person is not a good fit for the space, the minority should not ask them
to put aside their discomfort without convincing them of the reasons in
dialogue.
Why is this necessary?
As I said in the beginning, i feel that sudoroom is riding on a streak of
luck and hard work at the moment, and that we can't expect this to
continue in the face of entropy. We already have and will continue to see
abuse of the space by people who have no feelings of accountability, and
our members have no recourse or policy to address anything like that. I
know from experience what results from this, and it is sad. The failure
of Sudoroom would not be a sufficiently educational experience to justify
allowing it to happen, when the lessons we would learn have been offered
so many times in other places.
We talk about the challenge of diversity in a hackerspace like ours. One
thing we don't seek is diversity of people who are good and bad for what
we're trying to do. We do not invite drug dealers to sudoroom to sell
meth to people from the street outside, even though it would please them
greatly if they could use our space. We don't invite meth addicts to
browse our hacking materials shelves to find copper and aluminum to
recycle so they can buy more drugs.
We also should not invite people to the space who are unwilling to behave
in a way that is respectful to the members and guests whose interests we
share, and want to share. That means that, despite our aversion to
exclusion, we need to choose between excluding some or excluding others.
For example, if we refuse abusive or disrespectful behavior and those who
insist on it, we create an accessible space for people who avoid that
behavior. If we maintain an atmosphere of cooperation and care for each
other and the hardware that is our space, we invite people from all
backgrounds who seek to do the same things. On the other hand, if we
refuse this responsibility, we allow the tone to be set by those with the
loudest voice, and the least to lose, and the quiet and self-respecting
people will go elsewhere.
I ask that we look to the future to envision the challenges we can expect
as we continue to grow and do more awesome things, and think about what we
hope to achieve. That is why we need to protect ourselves, each other,
and our hackerspace, from complacency and entropy as best we can.
well, I feel that i have said more than enough about it for now, but if
anyone has opinions on this i look forward to continuing the discussion.
- -jake
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Laurie Cooperman Rosen <Lscoop(a)comcast.net>
Date: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 3:34 PM
Subject: Tenant Statement, 2141 Broadway & Invitations!!
To: exchequer(a)sudoroom.org
Cc: eddan(a)eddan.com, mattsenate(a)gmail.com
Dear Tenants at 2131-2147 Broadway:
I apologize for the group message this month, but my email has been down for
24 hours and I have a limited amount of time in which to send out sooo many
messages!
There are 2 attachments to this email: first, there is your normal monthly
bill. PG&E was lower than normal this month (keep up the good work!),
especially for this time of year!
Next, there is a flyer inviting you to an event that we'll be having at 2141
Broadway on 9/15, from 3-5pm. Abeba Wright, aka "The Krazy Kracker Lady" a
dear friend of mine and well-known author in the raw food world (nationally
and internationally!) will be doing one of her wonderfully creative
lectures/demonstrations in the big space and adjacent front conference room
area. Advance reservations strongly suggested by 9/5 because she needs to
make enough krackers in advance for a lot of folks and making a lot of a
variety of raw "Krackers" takes a lot of time, and she's a master!
Instructions for registering are on the attached flyer. "Raw Daddy", the
equally well-known raw cone-maker filled with the most creative sweet and
savory fillings imaginable will also be on hand for those that want to
purchase his creations. Get ready for a new world of creations to tantalize
your taste buds if you haven't seen these two chefs before!
Then, there is MORE! It is also George's Birthday on 9/15, and we will
segue into a Party for him shortly after the meetup ends, from 6-9pm! There
will be even more food, drink and possibly some live music too! Please join
us for a memorable afternoon and evening of fun! Please RSVP to us as well,
so we can plan for the catering accordingly!
See you soon
Laurie
Hihi,
I'll be doing a foundational bio hacking TIL this sat at sudoroom!
Alexander and Andre who are badass nano-biohackers will be backing me up.
We'll be covering the basics of how DNA, RNA, proteins and gene splicing
works. Hope to see you there! Love and Peace!
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Today_I_Learned#September_14_:_Understanding_DNA_…
hi everyone,
a refill of checks that was supposed to be delivered from the bank never
arrived and when jenny went to find out what to do, the bank people said
that it was a high security risk to have checks floating around in the
world tied to our existing account.
unfortunately their solution to this problem is not very elegant. their
official policy is that when this kind of thing happens that they open a
new account with a new account number to avoid any possibility of someone
using the checks to inappropriately draw on the old account.
what this means for us is that we have to *provide them with a list of
things that we are expecting to draw on and go into the old account*
and *redirect
things to the new account*.
so, if you have direct deposit set up to the old account, please let me
know so that we can give them a heads up.
new checks are on their way to the bank and they will let us know when they
arrive.
finally, our current balance is $911.48. please pay your dues.
- marina
Sorry for being slow in documenting this, but the community deserves
to know that this happened.
Sometime on Friday night, the men's bathroom was vandalized. I feel
confident that it was an art-murmur walk-in, but there is no way to
know for sure. They spread human feces along the walls creating what
appeared to be two swastika shapes - not entirely faithful renditions
but enough to reasonably perceive swastikas in them.
I learned of this when I came to set up my TIL Saturday around noon.
Our landlord George showed it to me. He was understandably upset, both
about having to clean up the mess and also about the symbolism. His
father is Jewish. He wondered if he had been targeted. I also was not
happy, as a queer Jew with many family members in Yad Vashem.
Unfortunately, this caused him to descend into another tirade in which
nobody was spared. He assumed right away it was done by a Sudoroom
member. There was a clear path of association that went: Sudoroom ->
anarchists -> Nazis. At one point he even suggested that a kid from
Sudo Kids had "come back to finish the job". But mostly he accused
Sudo members. Since I was representing Sudoroom in this conversation,
he ended up addressing me over and over as if I was personally
responsible for this swastika, as if I had done it myself. I actually
found this to be the most traumatic part of the whole event. Not even
offensive, just downright traumatic.
There was the usual fare of yelling about money and society and his
inability to find good tenants. He twice informed me that he was
evicting both Sudoroom and the Public School and that Laurie would
prepare a 30 days notice. He's said that before. He told me that
Sudoroom and Public School should close their doors for the rest of
the day, because "If I see any of them, I will beat them up!" I told
him I'm sorry, but I have a Linux class scheduled for 2:00, please
don't beat them up. That calmed him down a little. In short, the rant
was a mix of old and new.
Except this time Laurie was there. Laurie is our other landlord - she
is George's wife and they own the building equally. The way he talked
to her during this rant was very revealing, because she also became a
target. He yelled at her for not having a 30-days notice already
prepared, for having written the craigslist ads that attracted
Sudoroom and Public School (and, incidentally, many of his other
tenants). He said quite hurtful things to her, including that she was
nothing but a drain on his life and that he wanted a divorce from her.
She just stood there quietly saying nothing, holding their dog on a
leash, looking at me with eyes that said "I'm sorry you have to see
this." After a while, when George left the room, she apologized to me.
She said "please don't listen to anything he said, he just gets that
way when his buttons are pushed."
They ended up not leaving for a couple hours. Initially George refused
to clean the bathroom or let anybody else clean it because he wanted
to show evidence to the cops, who he believed would show up to
investigate. It took a chorus of Laurie and several of his other
tenants to convince him that OPD doesn't show up for things like this,
the cops aren't coming, the bathroom smells, please let's just clean
it up. Eventually he lost steam and they left.
I'm not really sure how to wrap up this email. Writing it was
difficult. You will have to draw your own conclusions.
Amber,
Thanks for sharing the Video "The Origin of the phrase 'women of
colour'"[1]. I have often felt uneasy about using or even listening to the
phare because I don't like subscribing to the "colour theory" of race, and
try to stop using colour descriptors for people. However it's good to know
the purpose behind the designation which I support quite a lot.
Thanks for sharing,
Max
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vl34mi4Iw&feature=youtu.be
From: amber yada <amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com>
> To:
> Cc: Sudo Room Discussion List <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 09:20:31 -0700
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Pinnacle of cultural diversity
> wow, i love this list...
>
> thank you sooooo much for speaking up, patrick and marina; it isn't
> negative to be honest. yes, we want to celebrate that the foundations of
> sudo room resist sexism and value "diversity" (no small thing!)... but yes
> we have to do more, we always have to do more.
>
> as white individuals we need to take responsibility to educate ourselves
> and listen to people's experiences without defense. as organizations...
> well, it's very slippery because groups of white people are actually the
> foundation of racial oppression. people are killed, neighborhoods
> destroyed, land + animals + environment ruined so that white people can be
> together. how does a group of mostly white people challenge their own
> entitlement to exist --- especially when dealing with their own legal,
> economic, and group oppression (heterosexism, ableism, transphobia, ageism)
> issues?
>
> not trying to paint a bleak picture. absolutely there are things we can
> and must do. but along the way we need to be doing the difficult work of
> changing our own minds, and seeing that even the mechanisms we use for
> anti-oppression work can be riddled with the language and thought process
> and values of the oppressor. example: the term "women of color" (which
> along w/ "people of color" i probly use too much) was originally a
> political designation (see video <http://youtu.be/82vl34mi4Iw> and
> learn!) and is now being used far too often as a racial descriptor.
>
> okay i think about this stuff all day every day. many more thoughts on
> this. so happy to see the discussion here.
>
> as far as ideas on what to do, here is a list i worked on for BACE (bay
> area community exchange). i feel hypocritical in sharing this because we
> haven't been doing any of these things as an organization. i do still feel
> very strongly that this is the direction we need to go.
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15nxepE-LC_UUfoa-hViPTO7sxBBVsOHYxvVp29N…
>
>
> -amber
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Patrick Schmidt <
> psbschmidt(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> the person that I talked about reached out to me and I am now
>> convinced he does not have negative intentions. It was a
>> misunderstanding and maybe I was too sensitive or primed.
>>
>> The incident back then was a comment made over the list which
>> triggered the girl,
>> it was a statement in which the person identified with the suppressive
>> culture.
>>
>> When I was young I also made many sarcastic comments to point out the
>> crazy mind beliefs and social norms we have in our strange societies.
>>
>> But we do not have to identify with this strange culture, which is
>> unsustainable and cuts down the rainforest, the lungs of our planet
>> (we vote with our dollar and even if we do not have rainforest here in
>> the US, the brazilians are cutting down the forest to plant GMO
>> monoculture soy to feed the cows for the cattle for american and
>> european markets)
>>
>> Just last week I had the epiphany that it maybe more useful that
>> instead of identifying with the sick society, the male energies
>> cutting down the forest, we should identify and focus on the female
>> energies regrowing.
>>
>> Second epiphany I had that instead of complaining and trying to raise
>> awareness about the toxic foods that are so popular in this society
>> and even conscious and smart people eat,
>> it is much better to focus on providing non toxic mother earth foods
>> from the countryside hackers, the organic farmers, who love what they
>> do and treat mother earth well.
>> I am sure that we could make connections with farmers from the farmers
>> market who donate food to us on a regular basis and we help them with
>> homepages/media.
>>
>> We are givig birth to a new society all together,
>> for the first time we can make it right, a society where the female
>> spirit are not suppressed,
>> a society celebrating diversity, peace and abundance, access of
>> knowledge and ressources and empowerment for all.
>> After all mother earth provides enough food and shelter for all,
>> scarcity is man made and artificial.
>>
>> I will reach out to the girl, even if I think I never talked to her in
>> person,
>> and maybe we can make her come back.
>>
>> p.s. sudo room feels like family to me, last friday late at night we
>> had a cuddle puddle, we formed an amoeba organism together and evolved
>> to a mushroom, we sang together and beat boxed, and we are part of the
>> peace and love movement.
>> I see a positive future for Sudoroom and opening up and diversifying
>> more will bring many new perspectives which will enrich the whole
>> community, looking forward :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/9/13, Marina Kukso <marina.kukso(a)gmail.com>:
>> > thank you patrick for bringing up the current status of our efforts at
>> > creating an inclusive space. i basically ask myself these kinds of
>> > questions constantly (performing constant temperature check of things
>> like
>> > "how boys-clubbish does sudo feel right now?" and "if i were a person of
>> > color, would i feel alienated if i walked in right now having never been
>> > here before?" "is this a place where a non-gender-normative person would
>> > feel comfortable being themselves without having to answer for who they
>> > are?", etc.).
>> >
>> > so, i agree with you that we are not living up to the standards that
>> we've
>> > set for inclusivity. while we are doing a better job than many other
>> > hackerspaces, in my mind, if we do not reflect the community of Oakland
>> in
>> > our diversity, then we have room for improvement.
>> >
>> > *so everyone, what are the conditions that contribute to us currently
>> not
>> > meeting our inclusivity goals and what can we do to start meeting them?*
>> > *what
>> > can we all be doing to make the space more inclusive and welcoming?*
>> >
>> > - marina
>> >
>> > ps - i wanted to share with everyone some inspiration for the kind of
>> sudo
>> > room that i'd like to see. it's a creative/hackspace in chattanooga
>> that's
>> > run by a library that was basically given over to innovation-oriented
>> folks
>> > to run carte blanche. i think that it is a space with more or less
>> complete
>> > community ownership (meaning that it's not seen as fringe or
>> niche...it's
>> > seen like the library.."a place where everyone just goes")..that would
>> be
>> > pretty cool @_@
>> >
>> > about the space: http://4thfloor.chattlibrary.org/
>> > really interesting news piece about how it happened:
>> >
>> http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/aug/11/rock-star-librarians/?entert…
>> >
>> > pps - i agree with patrick that we have a lot of positive feminist
>> energy.
>> > we work very hard at this and although there are still times when things
>> > are boys-clubbish and there are barely any women in the space, i feel
>> that
>> > our community overall is invested in ensuring that we have a space where
>> > women have an expectation that they will be treated as humans (an
>> > expectation that many women don't have in many places in the world!). my
>> > perspective is that this commitment from the community is what it really
>> > takes to solve problems of inclusion because it means that we have a
>> number
>> > of people who are invested in coming up with solutions when things are
>> > exclusive. now how to maintain this and make it better and expand it for
>> > everyone :)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Patrick Schmidt
>> > <psbschmidt(a)googlemail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sorry for being negative but I am not sure that it is all so positive.
>> >> There is one person who has a very negative aura, always talks about
>> >> negative things,
>> >> at least one coder girl of colour stopped coming because of him. ( I
>> >> should have spoken up much earlier).
>> >> I feel very unsafe around that person. Nevertheless on Art Murmur's
>> >> friday I wanted
>> >> to overcome my fear and went and tried to talk to him, he was playing
>> >> with a knife
>> >> (made me unconfortable and I had the vision that he would stab me, so
>> >> i mentioned that to ridiculize my own fear), but then he started to
>> >> talk about very negative things again,
>> >> I do not even remember what it was, I just left that conversation.
>> >>
>> >> I have seen people of colour who randomly walked in at art murmurs
>> >> where we had the doors open to the street, walk out again as soon as
>> >> they saw that we are mostly white folks up there.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, Sudoroom is amazing, lots of feminin energy and mostly I feel
>> safe,
>> >> Sudokids did rock a lot and one time we had black kids, white
>> >> kids,southamerican kids, arabic kids and asian kids all together and
>> >> it is wonderful,
>> >> but still I think we have a lot of work to do to open up more,
>> diversify,
>> >> and make sure the hacker movement and empowerment is not only for the
>> >> traditionally privilleged.
>> >>
>> >> I am not looking to have a confrontation with that person, i already
>> >> forgave and released,
>> >> I will just try to shine my light and if it comes to that try to help
>> >> that person overcome his negativity and fear.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2013/9/12, Romy Snowyla <romy(a)snowyla.com>:
>> >> > It is so awesome to see Sudoroom as a pinnacle of cultural diversity.
>> >> There
>> >> > is no tokenism here or random Asian women shoved into showcase roles.
>> >> > It
>> >> is
>> >> > truly a place where open minded people mix freely showing their
>> >> > diversity
>> >> > and superiority to any capital it's systems and stick it to the man
>> >> >
>> >> > Rock on!!!
>> >> >
>> >> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>> >> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> >> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>> >> >
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> >> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> >> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>> >>
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Animator Mama You-Tube Channel<http://www.youtube.com/user/videocabulary/videos?view=0>
> *
> *Animator Mama on Tumblr <http://animatormama.tumblr.com/>*
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marina Kukso <marina.kukso(a)gmail.com>
> To: Praveen Sinha <dmhomee(a)gmail.com>
> Cc: xander(a)ligandal.com, dre(a)ligandal.com, sudo-discuss <
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>, lol-hackers <
> lol-hackers(a)googlegroups.com>, Juan Crispin Hernandez-Rosas <
> one_e_toe(a)yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 10:37:43 -0700
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [lol-hackers] foundational bio / hacking TIL
> this sat
> hi all,
>
> just a reminder that the foundational biohacking TIL is happening today at
> 2.
>
> see you soon,
> marina
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hihi,
>>
>> I'll be doing a foundational bio hacking TIL this sat at sudoroom!
>> Alexander and Andre who are badass nano-biohackers will be backing me up.
>> We'll be covering the basics of how DNA, RNA, proteins and gene splicing
>> works. Hope to see you there! Love and Peace!
>>
>>
>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Today_I_Learned#September_14_:_Understanding_DNA_…
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lol-hackers" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to lol-hackers+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lol-hackers(a)googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lol-hackers.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com>
> To: Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net>
> Cc: Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com>, "liberty(a)libertymadison.com" <
> liberty(a)libertymadison.com>, "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 12:09:58 -0700
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Incident Saturday
> We have to find out what the building is worth, then someone has to see
> how big of a loan we could get as a group (we'd need a tax structure). Once
> we find that out we can crowd source for the deposit and first months
> mortgage.
>
> It's within the realm of possibility, but would require Sudo Room to
> become a land owner and a state/federally recognized entity (like an LLC)
> with people on the board having good credit. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
>
> --Andrew
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:04 PM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net> wrote:
>
>> +1!!!
>>
>> Minus - 'it's probably too big to be crowdfunded'
>>
>> sent from eddan.com
>>
>> On Sep 13, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Julio Rios <julio.rios(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Not sure if this is possible, but just throwing it out there since there
>> seems to be a general consensus that the location is ideal, but the
>> management is the opposite:
>>
>> Can sudoroom (or some conglomerate including sudoroom) buy George out? or
>> convince someone/something friendly to sudoroom to buy him out?
>> I think it's probably too big to be crowdfunded, but does anyone know
>> someone profusely wealthy able to take this on? or a group?
>>
>> I am guessing there are already models for spaces owned by the groups
>> that operate there, cooperatively maybe?
>>
>> I'm not necessarily advocating this, but this space in Atlanta is pretty
>> nice, even though it's been bought by developers for the purpose of
>> fostering an art community that already existed there, and they have a farm:
>> http://clatl.com/atlanta/goat-farm-gets-sold/Content?oid=1868024
>>
>> Not sure what the equivalent in Oakland would be.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Walking away may not be easy to do as he tends to corner people when
>>> they are alone in the space.
>>> On Sep 13, 2013 11:47 AM, "Hol Gaskill" <hol(a)gaskill.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> reiterating the in-writing requirement is good. just walking away may
>>>> or may not be so good - i have so far had the good fortune not to know the
>>>> depths of these interactions.
>>>>
>>>> Sep 13, 2013 10:05:48 AM, andrew(a)roshambomedia.com wrote:
>>>> The lease that Matt sent out a while ago clearly states that all
>>>> requests and complaints must be in writing. So I would like to reiterate
>>>> that if George approaches you just say, "please put that in writing so I
>>>> can share it with the group, thanks" and walk away if you can.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 10:12 PM, johanna faust female.faust(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >i wonder if there is any hopen in talking to him?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hey all, I sent this to Laurie today:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Laurie,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks for replying briefly, when do you expect you will be able to
>>>> send a
>>>> >
>>>> > full response? We also need to address the incident on this past
>>>> Saturday,
>>>> >
>>>> > which was another unacceptable confrontation and accusation.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> >
>>>> > Matt
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >> We've used http://hackerspaces.crowdmap.com/ in the past to show
>>>> listings
>>>> >
>>>> >> of spaces, look at price points, be knowledgeable about local
>>>> availability.
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:31 AM, rusty lindgren
>>>> rustylindgren(a)gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>> And these:
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4047110117.html
>>>> >
>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4015202437.html
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> >>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >
>>>> >>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >
>>>> >>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >
>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >
>>>> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> --
>>>> >
>>>> Be seeing you.
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >-------Andrew LoweCell: 831-332-2507http://roshambomedia.com
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>> >sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -------
> Andrew Lowe
> Cell: 831-332-2507
> http://roshambomedia.com
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net>
> To: Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com>
> Cc: Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com>, "liberty(a)libertymadison.com" <
> liberty(a)libertymadison.com>, "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 13:09:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Incident Saturday
> or it could be structured as a co-op real estate deal.
> or an equity crowd funded (starting 9/28) distribution of shares.
>
> Sudo Room can remain what it is. Sudo Co-op, for example, can be the
> entity with title to the property.
>
> sent from eddan.com
>
> On Sep 14, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com> wrote:
>
> We have to find out what the building is worth, then someone has to see
> how big of a loan we could get as a group (we'd need a tax structure). Once
> we find that out we can crowd source for the deposit and first months
> mortgage.
>
> It's within the realm of possibility, but would require Sudo Room to
> become a land owner and a state/federally recognized entity (like an LLC)
> with people on the board having good credit. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
>
> --Andrew
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:04 PM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net> wrote:
>
>> +1!!!
>>
>> Minus - 'it's probably too big to be crowdfunded'
>>
>> sent from eddan.com
>>
>> On Sep 13, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Julio Rios <julio.rios(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Not sure if this is possible, but just throwing it out there since there
>> seems to be a general consensus that the location is ideal, but the
>> management is the opposite:
>>
>> Can sudoroom (or some conglomerate including sudoroom) buy George out? or
>> convince someone/something friendly to sudoroom to buy him out?
>> I think it's probably too big to be crowdfunded, but does anyone know
>> someone profusely wealthy able to take this on? or a group?
>>
>> I am guessing there are already models for spaces owned by the groups
>> that operate there, cooperatively maybe?
>>
>> I'm not necessarily advocating this, but this space in Atlanta is pretty
>> nice, even though it's been bought by developers for the purpose of
>> fostering an art community that already existed there, and they have a farm:
>> http://clatl.com/atlanta/goat-farm-gets-sold/Content?oid=1868024
>>
>> Not sure what the equivalent in Oakland would be.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Walking away may not be easy to do as he tends to corner people when
>>> they are alone in the space.
>>> On Sep 13, 2013 11:47 AM, "Hol Gaskill" <hol(a)gaskill.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> reiterating the in-writing requirement is good. just walking away may
>>>> or may not be so good - i have so far had the good fortune not to know the
>>>> depths of these interactions.
>>>>
>>>> Sep 13, 2013 10:05:48 AM, andrew(a)roshambomedia.com wrote:
>>>> The lease that Matt sent out a while ago clearly states that all
>>>> requests and complaints must be in writing. So I would like to reiterate
>>>> that if George approaches you just say, "please put that in writing so I
>>>> can share it with the group, thanks" and walk away if you can.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 10:12 PM, johanna faust female.faust(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >i wonder if there is any hopen in talking to him?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hey all, I sent this to Laurie today:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Laurie,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks for replying briefly, when do you expect you will be able to
>>>> send a
>>>> >
>>>> > full response? We also need to address the incident on this past
>>>> Saturday,
>>>> >
>>>> > which was another unacceptable confrontation and accusation.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> >
>>>> > Matt
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >> We've used http://hackerspaces.crowdmap.com/ in the past to show
>>>> listings
>>>> >
>>>> >> of spaces, look at price points, be knowledgeable about local
>>>> availability.
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:31 AM, rusty lindgren
>>>> rustylindgren(a)gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>> And these:
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4047110117.html
>>>> >
>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4015202437.html
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> >>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >
>>>> >>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >
>>>> >>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >
>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >
>>>> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> --
>>>> >
>>>> Be seeing you.
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >-------Andrew LoweCell: 831-332-2507http://roshambomedia.com
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>> >sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> >sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> >http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -------
> Andrew Lowe
> Cell: 831-332-2507
> http://roshambomedia.com
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Anthony Di Franco <di.franco(a)gmail.com>
> To: Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net>
> Cc: Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com>, "liberty(a)libertymadison.com" <
> liberty(a)libertymadison.com>, "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 13:14:49 -0700
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Incident Saturday
>
> If it's a California direct public offering, it can be done as equity
> already. See people's community market in west Oakland.
> On Sep 14, 2013 1:09 PM, "Eddan Katz" <eddan(a)clear.net> wrote:
>
>> or it could be structured as a co-op real estate deal.
>> or an equity crowd funded (starting 9/28) distribution of shares.
>>
>> Sudo Room can remain what it is. Sudo Co-op, for example, can be the
>> entity with title to the property.
>>
>> sent from eddan.com
>>
>> On Sep 14, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com> wrote:
>>
>> We have to find out what the building is worth, then someone has to see
>> how big of a loan we could get as a group (we'd need a tax structure). Once
>> we find that out we can crowd source for the deposit and first months
>> mortgage.
>>
>> It's within the realm of possibility, but would require Sudo Room to
>> become a land owner and a state/federally recognized entity (like an LLC)
>> with people on the board having good credit. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
>>
>> --Andrew
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:04 PM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net> wrote:
>>
>>> +1!!!
>>>
>>> Minus - 'it's probably too big to be crowdfunded'
>>>
>>> sent from eddan.com
>>>
>>> On Sep 13, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Julio Rios <julio.rios(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not sure if this is possible, but just throwing it out there since there
>>> seems to be a general consensus that the location is ideal, but the
>>> management is the opposite:
>>>
>>> Can sudoroom (or some conglomerate including sudoroom) buy George out?
>>> or convince someone/something friendly to sudoroom to buy him out?
>>> I think it's probably too big to be crowdfunded, but does anyone know
>>> someone profusely wealthy able to take this on? or a group?
>>>
>>> I am guessing there are already models for spaces owned by the groups
>>> that operate there, cooperatively maybe?
>>>
>>> I'm not necessarily advocating this, but this space in Atlanta is pretty
>>> nice, even though it's been bought by developers for the purpose of
>>> fostering an art community that already existed there, and they have a farm:
>>> http://clatl.com/atlanta/goat-farm-gets-sold/Content?oid=1868024
>>>
>>> Not sure what the equivalent in Oakland would be.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Walking away may not be easy to do as he tends to corner people when
>>>> they are alone in the space.
>>>> On Sep 13, 2013 11:47 AM, "Hol Gaskill" <hol(a)gaskill.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> reiterating the in-writing requirement is good. just walking away may
>>>>> or may not be so good - i have so far had the good fortune not to know the
>>>>> depths of these interactions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sep 13, 2013 10:05:48 AM, andrew(a)roshambomedia.com wrote:
>>>>> The lease that Matt sent out a while ago clearly states that all
>>>>> requests and complaints must be in writing. So I would like to reiterate
>>>>> that if George approaches you just say, "please put that in writing so I
>>>>> can share it with the group, thanks" and walk away if you can.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 10:12 PM, johanna faust
>>>>> female.faust(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >i wonder if there is any hopen in talking to him?
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hey all, I sent this to Laurie today:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Laurie,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks for replying briefly, when do you expect you will be able to
>>>>> send a
>>>>> >
>>>>> > full response? We also need to address the incident on this past
>>>>> Saturday,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > which was another unacceptable confrontation and accusation.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Matt
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> We've used http://hackerspaces.crowdmap.com/ in the past to show
>>>>> listings
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> of spaces, look at price points, be knowledgeable about local
>>>>> availability.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:31 AM, rusty lindgren
>>>>> rustylindgren(a)gmail.com>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> And these:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4047110117.html
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4015202437.html
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >
>>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >
>>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> --
>>>>> >
>>>>> Be seeing you.
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >
>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >--
>>>>> >-------Andrew LoweCell: 831-332-2507http://roshambomedia.com
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>> >sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -------
>> Andrew Lowe
>> Cell: 831-332-2507
>> http://roshambomedia.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marina Kukso <marina.kukso(a)gmail.com>
> To: "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 13:59:37 -0700
> Subject: [sudo-discuss] oakland nights live tonight at sudo room
> hi all,
>
> oakland nights live will be at sudo room tonight. do enjoy. there will
> hopefully be lots of new people!
>
> here's the event link: https://www.facebook.com/events/173230236198036/
>
> - marina
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net>
> To: Anthony Di Franco <di.franco(a)gmail.com>
> Cc: Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com>, "liberty(a)libertymadison.com" <
> liberty(a)libertymadison.com>, "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:34:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Incident Saturday
> True. Though there is approx. $25,000 in legal fees in preparation for the
> CA DPO. Cutting Edge Capital (Jenny Kassan) did the People's Community
> Market.
>
> Not sure how the comparison will stack up, but it's problematic that the
> DPO involves getting the $25K upfront, in order to raise the DPO money.
>
> Either way, it seems to me like an institutional membership structure
> might make it a lot more feasible (i.e., Bay Area Public School, Roshambo
> Media, Sound Room, Pan Theater, Pan Theatre, Community Democracy Project,
> Oakland Wiki, etc. etc.).
>
>
> sent from eddan.com
>
> On Sep 14, 2013, at 1:14 PM, Anthony Di Franco <di.franco(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> If it's a California direct public offering, it can be done as equity
> already. See people's community market in west Oakland.
> On Sep 14, 2013 1:09 PM, "Eddan Katz" <eddan(a)clear.net> wrote:
>
>> or it could be structured as a co-op real estate deal.
>> or an equity crowd funded (starting 9/28) distribution of shares.
>>
>> Sudo Room can remain what it is. Sudo Co-op, for example, can be the
>> entity with title to the property.
>>
>> sent from eddan.com
>>
>> On Sep 14, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com> wrote:
>>
>> We have to find out what the building is worth, then someone has to see
>> how big of a loan we could get as a group (we'd need a tax structure). Once
>> we find that out we can crowd source for the deposit and first months
>> mortgage.
>>
>> It's within the realm of possibility, but would require Sudo Room to
>> become a land owner and a state/federally recognized entity (like an LLC)
>> with people on the board having good credit. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
>>
>> --Andrew
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:04 PM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)clear.net> wrote:
>>
>>> +1!!!
>>>
>>> Minus - 'it's probably too big to be crowdfunded'
>>>
>>> sent from eddan.com
>>>
>>> On Sep 13, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Julio Rios <julio.rios(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not sure if this is possible, but just throwing it out there since there
>>> seems to be a general consensus that the location is ideal, but the
>>> management is the opposite:
>>>
>>> Can sudoroom (or some conglomerate including sudoroom) buy George out?
>>> or convince someone/something friendly to sudoroom to buy him out?
>>> I think it's probably too big to be crowdfunded, but does anyone know
>>> someone profusely wealthy able to take this on? or a group?
>>>
>>> I am guessing there are already models for spaces owned by the groups
>>> that operate there, cooperatively maybe?
>>>
>>> I'm not necessarily advocating this, but this space in Atlanta is pretty
>>> nice, even though it's been bought by developers for the purpose of
>>> fostering an art community that already existed there, and they have a farm:
>>> http://clatl.com/atlanta/goat-farm-gets-sold/Content?oid=1868024
>>>
>>> Not sure what the equivalent in Oakland would be.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Andrew <andrew(a)roshambomedia.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Walking away may not be easy to do as he tends to corner people when
>>>> they are alone in the space.
>>>> On Sep 13, 2013 11:47 AM, "Hol Gaskill" <hol(a)gaskill.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> reiterating the in-writing requirement is good. just walking away may
>>>>> or may not be so good - i have so far had the good fortune not to know the
>>>>> depths of these interactions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sep 13, 2013 10:05:48 AM, andrew(a)roshambomedia.com wrote:
>>>>> The lease that Matt sent out a while ago clearly states that all
>>>>> requests and complaints must be in writing. So I would like to reiterate
>>>>> that if George approaches you just say, "please put that in writing so I
>>>>> can share it with the group, thanks" and walk away if you can.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 10:12 PM, johanna faust
>>>>> female.faust(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >i wonder if there is any hopen in talking to him?
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hey all, I sent this to Laurie today:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Laurie,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks for replying briefly, when do you expect you will be able to
>>>>> send a
>>>>> >
>>>>> > full response? We also need to address the incident on this past
>>>>> Saturday,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > which was another unacceptable confrontation and accusation.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Matt
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Matthew Senate mattsenate(a)gmail.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> We've used http://hackerspaces.crowdmap.com/ in the past to show
>>>>> listings
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> of spaces, look at price points, be knowledgeable about local
>>>>> availability.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:31 AM, rusty lindgren
>>>>> rustylindgren(a)gmail.com>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> And these:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4047110117.html
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/off/4015202437.html
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >
>>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >
>>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> --
>>>>> >
>>>>> Be seeing you.
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >
>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >--
>>>>> >-------Andrew LoweCell: 831-332-2507http://roshambomedia.com
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>> >sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> >http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -------
>> Andrew Lowe
>> Cell: 831-332-2507
>> http://roshambomedia.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marina Kukso <marina.kukso(a)gmail.com>
> To: "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:58:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] defining our membership: notes, next steps,
> and what's at stake
> hey all,
>
> in case the wiki link didn't work for you because of the period at the
> end, the correct link is: https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Sudo_room/membership
>
> - marina
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 3:49 AM, Marina Kukso <marina.kukso(a)gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> hi all,
>>
>> we've been trying to figure out who is a member and how we determine
>> membership for a long time. we have not yet come up with a resolution.
>> although we keep (miraculously) making the rent, we are severely
>> constrained in our ability to expand (expand our space, become a nonprofit,
>> etc.) by not having good answers to key questions like "who is a member,"
>> "how do people become new members," and "how do people continue to be
>> members." we have explored a lot of ideas but no proposal has had the
>> support of enough people to allow us to move forward.
>>
>> there was apparently a great discussion about membership at a meeting a
>> few weeks ago which i sadly missed. unfortunately it was not super-well
>> documented, so with marc's help, i've tried to represent some of what got
>> discussed.
>>
>> so, here are the notes (marc and others who were there, please add if i
>> missed anything or correct things if they're wrong):
>>
>> - people at the meeting agreed that membership should be based on *
>> contribution* to the space and *trust*.
>>
>> - it's unclear what the mechanisms are for determining contribution and
>> verifying trust.
>>
>> - here are the mechanisms for contribution that were discussed:
>> -- people agreed that there should be space for financial and
>> non-financial contributions. (personal note: our community as a whole has
>> agreed on this since our founding, but we get tripped up when starting to
>> think through the details of how something like this would work. we have
>> not yet found a solution to this problem.)
>> -- some folks proposed a member sign off (eg a member signs off on the
>> contribution you've made to the space, or you report it yourself)
>>
>> - here are the mechanisms for trust that were discussed:
>> -- noisebridge model: 3 existing members vouch for a person who is
>> applying to be a member. (also discussed was lowering it to 1 existing
>> member with 3 being seen as too high).
>>
>> - a guiding idea was that it should be easy to become a member and easy
>> to revoke membership if trust was violated and/or contributions are not
>> made.
>>
>> - additionally people were generally in agreement that membership should
>> provide access to the space (door access) and access to sudo room resources.
>>
>>
>> with those two issues as the standing problems that need to be resolved,
>> people agreed to propose and share as many different mechanisms for
>> verifying contribution and trust as they could come up with.
>>
>> so..please add here or on the wiki at
>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Sudo_room/membership.
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jake <jake(a)spaz.org>
> To: sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org, marina.kukso(a)gmail.com
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:03:05 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] intertwinkles collaborative decisionmaking tool
> I was not able to sign in. I went to the link you posted and it asked me
> to sign in. No invitation to create a new account. So i put my email
> address and it asked me to verify it (which i did) and then it gave the
> following cryptic error message:
>
> Permission Denied
> Sorry about that. Are you signed in as the right user? If we screwed up,
> please let us know what happened.
>
> Feedback & Support
>
> Marina wrote:
> are you guys able to sign up for the sudo room group?
> https://intertwinkles.org/**groups/show/sudo-room/<https://intertwinkles.org/groups/show/sudo-room/>
>
> not sure if i have to invite people or if you can just ask to join.
>
> - marina
>
> 4
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jake <jake(a)spaz.org>
> To: marina.kukso(a)gmail.com, sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> Cc: Jake Walters <jake(a)spaz.org>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: [sudo-discuss] jake's idea for sudoroom membership structure
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> i confess i have no idea how to properly edit the membership wiki to add
> my ideas.
>
> So i will just type them here, and maybe someone can help me put them into
> the wiki properly.
>
> Sudo room/membership
> Do we have it?
>
> I think sudoroom does not currently have a membership structure in place.
> We are currently existing in a (most of the time) benevolent anarchy,
> resulting from equal parts luck, hard work by caring people, and security
> by obscurity.
>
> I think we SHOULD have membership, which is clearly defined and binary
> (either you are a member in good standing, or a nonmember for whatever
> reason). There should be a list of members which can be publicly accessed,
> with enough information about each member that they can be identified by
> any member (a description or picture provided by the member themselves)
> since we don't all "know" each other.
>
> I think membership should be something that is in exchange for ONGOING
> contribution to the community, as defined (continually) by the membership,
> on a person by person basis. For example, $10 per month might be accepted
> by one person as sufficient, but another person might be required to pay
> $40 per month. Or the group can decide that a persons offer to "clear and
> sweep the floor once a week" is sufficient.
>
> Also the community should be able to refuse someone's membership, even if
> they are a current member who has been making their required contribution.
> Also the community should be able to change the requirement from a person
> based on information from them or anyone, to a higher or lower or different
> requirement. The community should be able to declare that a person has not
> fulfilled their requirement and is, until they return to that requirement,
> temporarily not a member.
>
> Does it [membership] confer special privelages?
>
> I think that membership should confer special privelages including access
> to the space even if it is closed, for any community-approved uses. A
> member can be there when no one else is there if they want to be. Also
> while anyone can participate in discussions at meetings, only members can
> vote (or block consensus items).
>
> I think a member should be able to "sponsor" a nonmember (or multiple of
> them) WHILE they are present in the space. This way nonmembers can use the
> space any time a member who supports them is present, which should be easy
> for nonmembers who use the space properly in a cooperative way. And for
> all nonmembers wanting to use the space, their sponsor can help them use
> the space properly.
>
> I think that nonmembers should be nominally granted up to 24 added-up
> hours of access to the space without a specific sponsor. This part is
> subtle and I urge people to think about the total effect of this "pseudo
> policy" before objecting. If a nonmember behaves badly before they have
> used up 24 hours they can be asked to leave by a member, of course. And if
> a nonmember behaves well it is likely that no one will even point out when
> their "24 hours" appears to have expired.
>
> are there expectations of members, do they have responsibilities?
>
> I think that all members should promise not to leave the space open
> without a member present. This means that when an awesome nonmember is
> working on a project and you're the last member and you want to leave, you
> have to decide between staying to help them or asking them to return when
> the space is open. It is also a good time to remind them that by
> contributing in a community-approved way, they can have 24-7 access.
>
> One reason for members making this promise to each other is because
> members have accountability to one another, and were approved at a meeting,
> and can be contacted with questions by other members, and can be trusted.
> However that trust does not extend to strangers and we must respect the
> process of meetings and accountability when we are not present to act as an
> advocate or translator for a nonmember we want to support.
>
> Some practical reasons for not allowing nonmembers in the space alone
> include security of property and materials, projects and tools. But also,
> the organization of the space and functionality of it is tied to human
> effort to make it a usable space. People who are members are contributors
> to the space in one way or another, and they contribute toward the
> usability of the space. It isn't fair to our fellow contributors to allow
> others to use and take from that space when we ourselves are not willing to
> supervise our own guests' use of the space.
>
> How do you become a member?
>
> People who want to become a member of the space must meet members of the
> space and learn about membership and the space. They need to announce to
> the membership, through the discuss list, that they want to become a member
> and answer responses to their post so that members who might come to a
> meeting will be satisfied with their reasons for wanting to join. Also, use
> of the mailinglist demonstrates a basic ability to communicate and be
> accountable to other members in case they are accepted.
>
> After making their desires known, they will come to meetings to get to
> know people, and announce that they would like to become a member. They
> can discuss with the group what kind of contribution they feel comfortable
> making, based on their income or free time levels, and in the case of
> nonmonetary contributions, how they propose their contributions be tracked
> (could be an email declaring that they cleaned the space at 3PM today and
> saw certain members there who saw it happen)
>
> I think that we should not do like noisebridge and expect a secret
> discussion, or expect a specific timeline for consideration of membership.
> If a person makes their bid for membership on the list and shows up to the
> nearest meeting after that, they should not expect to achieve membership
> for at least another week while the possiblity for objections is there. At
> their first meeting the announcement having been made, one week should be
> sufficient time for the membership to bring out any uncertainties.
>
> If a person is a member of the space, they should not have any less
> accountability to the space than a nonmember (on the contrary). This means
> that a member can be discussed at a meeting for questionable behavior and
> if necessary, have their membership revoked by the group. Consensus Minus
> One would be nice for this purpose but is too limiting in practice, because
> we hackers tend to be contrary and side with the underdog to a fault. If a
> large portion of the membership agrees that a person is not a good fit for
> the space, the minority should not ask them to put aside their discomfort
> without convincing them of the reasons in dialogue.
>
> Why is this necessary?
>
> As I said in the beginning, i feel that sudoroom is riding on a streak of
> luck and hard work at the moment, and that we can't expect this to continue
> in the face of entropy. We already have and will continue to see abuse of
> the space by people who have no feelings of accountability, and our members
> have no recourse or policy to address anything like that. I know from
> experience what results from this, and it is sad. The failure of Sudoroom
> would not be a sufficiently educational experience to justify allowing it
> to happen, when the lessons we would learn have been offered so many times
> in other places.
>
> We talk about the challenge of diversity in a hackerspace like ours. One
> thing we don't seek is diversity of people who are good and bad for what
> we're trying to do. We do not invite drug dealers to sudoroom to sell meth
> to people from the street outside, even though it would please them greatly
> if they could use our space. We don't invite meth addicts to browse our
> hacking materials shelves to find copper and aluminum to recycle so they
> can buy more drugs.
>
> We also should not invite people to the space who are unwilling to behave
> in a way that is respectful to the members and guests whose interests we
> share, and want to share. That means that, despite our aversion to
> exclusion, we need to choose between excluding some or excluding others.
>
> For example, if we refuse abusive or disrespectful behavior and those who
> insist on it, we create an accessible space for people who avoid that
> behavior. If we maintain an atmosphere of cooperation and care for each
> other and the hardware that is our space, we invite people from all
> backgrounds who seek to do the same things. On the other hand, if we
> refuse this responsibility, we allow the tone to be set by those with the
> loudest voice, and the least to lose, and the quiet and self-respecting
> people will go elsewhere.
>
> I ask that we look to the future to envision the challenges we can expect
> as we continue to grow and do more awesome things, and think about what we
> hope to achieve. That is why we need to protect ourselves, each other, and
> our hackerspace, from complacency and entropy as best we can.
>
> well, I feel that i have said more than enough about it for now, but if
> anyone has opinions on this i look forward to continuing the discussion.
>
> - -jake
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>
>
