7 Feb
2015
7 Feb
'15
11:06 p.m.
Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make
sense to follow the
rules.
Isn't that just the same thing as selectively enforcing the rules? If the
rules "don't make sense", it should be easy enough to get everyone to vote
to modify/delete/append the rules. Otherwise, this is just asking for
popular people in the group getting to decide when the rules don't apply to
them.
It's easy enough to boot abusive people from Omni Commons when they're
drunk and getting into women's personal space and being a creep. But where
the policies of a space are tested is if they hold up against powerful
people. That goes for groups of people big and small.
So, I kind of figured that mine would be an easy question to answer (Is it
66% to ban or 100% to unban?) but if no one actually knows the answer, then
it points to something that should probably be discussed.
On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Torrie Fischer <tdfischer(a)hackerbots.net>
wrote:
> Rah rah policy and whatnot.
>
Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make
sense to follow the
> rules.
>
> This thread (along with other previous threads) has seen a lot of energy
> put
> into dissecting the intricate hoops of policy and procedure that have been
> built to figure out loopholes and whatnot. They're quite ornate, really.
> Wonderful things, if thats your kink.
>
> Instead of investing more energy into this flavor of turing tarpit by
> throwing
> around voting percentages, decision approval workflows, ambiguous wording,
> and
> whatnot, maybe its best to start by revisiting the original problem:
>
> How does Sudo Room, as a member of the Omni collective-of-collectives, keep
> the people they want at Sudo Room and reliably push away people who don't
> belong?
>
> (For the record, I try to avoid the wednesday meetings because during my
> last
> few visits I almost fell asleep when it turned into omni delegate meeting
> discussion about how to lawyer it out in "consensus")
>
> On Friday, February 06, 2015 10:31:14 AM Al Sweigart wrote:
> > Okay. So if I'm reading this right, the CRP has a mediation process where
> > terminating a membership requires 2/3 vote. However, for safe space
> issues
> > someone can be temporarily banned immediately by an individual member,
> > which can then only be overturned by a 100% consensus (under the "All
> other
> > conflicts" category in the CRP)? Or when it says "a temporary ban may
be
> > put in place until the Omni's conflict resolution process can be followed
> > to resolution" does that mean they are banned until a 2/3 vote to
> > permanently ban them is made (as it says in the CRP)?
> >
> > Basically, I want to know if, after the temp ban, it takes a 100% vote to
> > unban the abusive person or a 66% vote to ban the abusive person. The CRP
> > and Safer Space Policy aren't clear cut on that (unless I'm missing
> > something in the wording).
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:12 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 5, 2015, Al Sweigart <asweigart(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >> I was hoping someone could clear a few things up:
> > >>
> > >> 1) Is Perry, right now, banned from the Omni Commons space?
> > >
> > > Yes, any member (but not guest) is empowered to temporarily ban -
> pending
> > > conflict mediation - anyone else so following a safe space violation
> which
> > > is what this is. I will bring it up also at the delegates meeting. See
> our
> > > Safe Space and Conflict Resolution policies on our wiki (on phone,
> don't
> > > have the links to hand but they are in the sidebar)
> > >
> > >> 2) If not, is any member unilaterally empowered to ban him right now?
> > >
> > > See above
> > >
> > >> 3) And if that happened, would he only be unbanned is through 100%
> > >> consensus of the entire group?
> > >
> > > He would be unbanned following the process set forth in Conflict
> > > Resolution.
> > >
> > >> 4) And would this consensus be reached at a CDC meeting or another
> > >> meeting?
> > >
> > > See conflict resolution process. Thanks!
> > >
> > >> -Al
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Steve Bloom
<stevebloom55(a)gmail.com>
> > >>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> He's a guitar teacher of some sort, IIRC with a poster in the
entry,
> so
> > >>> perhaps has some connection to musical activities at Omni.
I've
> > >>> experienced him too, both times somewhat drunk and having lost his
> sense
> > >>> of
> > >>> boundaries in part. I didn't feel threatened, but I can see
how most
> > >>> would.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Ryan <yandoryn(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >>>> I like the phrase space-invaded because it just made me think
of
> Space
> > >>>> Invaders which made me think of making a Safe Space top-down
shooter
> > >>>> video
> > >>>> game, which made me smile.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Jenny Ryan
<tunabananas(a)gmail.com>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>> Oh, *that* dude. So sorry you were space-invaded, Ryan :(
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I remember being in the mezzanine when Perry was in the
ballroom,
> > >>>>> reading Sarah's report about the incident with him
peeking into the
> > >>>>> Disco
> > >>>>> Room, then overheard him say to someone on the phone about
being
> asked
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>> stop, "Dude, I was just looking at this beautiful
naked dancer, I
> mean
> > >>>>> wow"
> > >>>>> and turning to Matt or Marc, can't recall, and fuming
that I'd
> love to
> > >>>>> go
> > >>>>> kick that creep out of the space.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Wish I had then. Fully in support of his ban but don't
personally
> have
> > >>>>> the bandwidth to steward a mediation process. I think he
might know
> > >>>>> Gabby
> > >>>>> from Rise Above, or seemed to be helping / around that area
some.
> > >>>>> CC'ing
> > >>>>> her to see if she has his contact info.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> /jnny
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 02/03/2015 02:49 PM, David Keenan wrote:
> > >>>>> > Hi all,
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Yes, I agree, this person should persona non grata
pending
> > >>>>> > mediation.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Perry is an olderish white guy musician who comes
around
> sometimes,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> much of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > the time seriously drunk it would appear. Being drunk
seems to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> clearly
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > impair his judgement and his actions become invasive
to others in
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> the ways
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > Ryan describes.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > My history with him is only the following. I first
talked to him
> a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> while
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > ago asking him to turn down his electric guitar in the
ballroom
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> while a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > large meeting was taking place in La Commune - he
complied. I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> noticed he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > really did reek of alcohol. I asked if he volunteered
with any
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> collective,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > he said FNB - but he didn't know where the kitchen
was, or that
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> there was
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > even a basement, which rang alarm bells for me (ie, it
was
> probably
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> a fib.)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > I later followed up with Helen and Joe and they said
they had
> never
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> heard
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > of him, and that sometimes people 'say' theyre
in FNB but aren't
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> really..
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > Anyhow, Perry left the ballroom and wandered upstairs
by the
> kitchen
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> above
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > La Commune, now playing the mandolin -
'quietly', yes - but alas
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> still
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > distracting to those in the large meeting below, and I
again
> asked
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> if he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > could play music in the basement or another room in
the building
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> until the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > meeting as finished - he complied, but seemed pretty
out of it
> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> not
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > understanding why (drunk).
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > I later found out that while upstairs he was
'peeking' into the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Disco Room
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > on a dance rehearsal that made those inside feel
uncomfortable
> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sarah
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > sent an email out to that effect. Next time I saw him,
I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> re-introduced
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > myself, took him up to the dance room and let him know
that they
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> require
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > privacy and to not do that. He said he had something
of one the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> dancers
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > inside and was trying to return it to her.. I did not
verify
> whether
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> this
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > was true or not, but since the dancers did not seem to
know him,
> it
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> seems
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > doubtful.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Then, one day after that, he was walking into the
building and I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> admittedly
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > gave him a bit of a 'side-eye' on the way in
because I wasn't
> sure
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> if he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > was wasted or what. He himself came up to me and said,
"why'd you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> give me
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > that look?", and I said, it appears you come into
the building
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> drunk, and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > we can't have drunk people in here - you
aren't known to our
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> community, and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > I don't know what you will do in that state. I
said if you want
> to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> get
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > drunk, try not to come here. To his credit he admitted
being
> drunk
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > aforementioned day, agreed it was unacceptable, and
said that
> wasn't
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> going
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > to happen again.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > But, since it has happened again, to my mind that is
grounds to
> ban
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> him
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > pending mediation that he will have to arrange.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Does anyone know him, or have his email?
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Best,
> > >>>>> > David
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ryan
<yandoryn(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> > > fwding this to sudo and cdc as well
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >>>>> > > From: Ryan <yandoryn(a)gmail.com>
> > >>>>> > > Date: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:59 PM
> > >>>>> > > Subject: Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry
> > >>>>> > > To: "discuss(a)lists.omnicommons.org"
<
> discuss(a)lists.omnicommons.org
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >,
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > > David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > Perry, who as far as I know is not affiliated
with any
> collective
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> in the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > space, was at the Omni until late last night. He
was heavily
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> inebriated and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > reeked of alcohol.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > In attempting to talk with me, he got incredibly
touchy-feely
> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> further
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > invaded my space, getting so close that I could
feel his
> breath on
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> my skin.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > I informed him loudly that touch needs to be
consensual in the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> space and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > that he should ask me before touching me. I told
him that the
> safe
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> space
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > policy is next to the front door and that he
should read it. I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> managed to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > get away from him, but he followed me outside.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > Ribre (sp?) was outside with her guitar and he
sat down next to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> her,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > invaded her space, and tried to strike up a
seemingly very
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> uncomfortable
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > conversation. She told him that whatever he was
talking about
> was
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> something
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > that he'd have to deal with on his own, not
with her, and that
> she
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> cannot
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > deal with drunk men, and that they make her
unsafe. Instead of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ceasing the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > conversation, he got closer and tried to tell her
that they
> needed
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > continue it.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > He continued in this vein for a while longer,
until I loudly
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> informed him
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > that the conversation was not consensual and he
needed to
> stop. He
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> started
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > to argue with me, however RAYC was able to defuse
Perry and
> lead
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> him away
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > from the interaction.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > I spoke to Kwe and Juul before they left, to make
sure I had
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> backup if I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > needed to ask Perry to leave the building.
Eventually, I was
> the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> only
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > member left in the building, so I asked RAYC to
shut down the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> building for
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > me, and that I was only comfortable vouching for
him and
> Nicholas.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> RAYC got
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > Perry to leave.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > I spoke with David Keenan this morning,
explaining the
> situation,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> and DK
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > said that he has spoken to Perry in the past
about his
> behaviour,
> > >>>>> > > specifically his behaviour when under the
influence of
> alcohol. I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> will let
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > DK speak more to that.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > Is anyone aware of a collective that Perry is
involved with?
> In my
> > >>>>> > > conversation with DK, he said that when he spoke
to Perry he
> said
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> he was
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > with FNB, but was probably lying, as he
didn't even know where
> the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> kitchen
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > was. Regardless, I ask that Perry be banned from
the Omni,
> pending
> > >>>>> > > mediation, as his actions clearly violate our
safe space policy
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> and he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > refused to take action to alter his behaviour.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > >>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > >>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Jenny
> > >>>>> http://jennyryan.net
> > >>>>> http://sudomesh.org
> > >>>>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
> > >>>>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
> > >>>>> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our
stories."
> > >>>>> -Laurie Anderson
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the
error of
> defining
> > >>>>> it."
> > >>>>> -Hannah Arendt
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
> > >>>>> -Stéphane Mallarmé
> > >>>>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
> > >>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > >>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> discuss mailing list
> > >>>> discuss(a)lists.omnicommons.org
> > >>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> cdc mailing list
> > >>> cdc(a)lists.omnicommons.org
> > >>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/cdc
>
>