24 Oct
2014
24 Oct
'14
5:34 p.m.
Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I do not enjoy being
contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about white
people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia.
Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
DD party, or even really had heard of it.
Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I never
meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There are more
Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population here
bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike Philadelphia,
settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The Spanish
settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old buildings.
The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak Spanish than the
people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know more about Mexico
and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is, California is a
way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I lived before.
Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover, it
doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists and non-Christians
in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can see that at on
December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they want
to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
Does that make sense?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
hi guys:
a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a Bay
Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white people
with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the actual
spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you don't
build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it really
problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not of
this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
-hep
* edited this to be less of a jerk.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell
<zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
Hello!
The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would like to
introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
transhumanist/Dia de
los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this
happen? Is there a reason
anyone would like to block?
Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity glittery
things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
1) check the calendar for conflicts:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
24 Oct
24 Oct
5:38 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
Also this would be a stellar time for white allies interested in social
justice and supporting minority voices to take up the heavy lifting of
explaining why this is all problematic so I do not have to spend more hours
on this topic as the sole voice speaking up and educating.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I
do not enjoy being
contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about white
people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia.
Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
DD party, or even really had heard of it.
Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
lived before.
Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover, it
doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists and non-Christians
in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can see that at on
December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they want
to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
Does that make sense?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
hi guys:
a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a Bay
Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white people
with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the actual
spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you don't
build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it really
problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not of
this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
-hep
* edited this to be less of a jerk.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell
<zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello!
>
> The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would like to
> introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>
> I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
transhumanist/Dia de
> los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a
reason
> anyone would like to block?
>
> Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity glittery
> things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
1) check the calendar for conflicts:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
5:54 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
Yup definitely. I think sometimes folks get a little behind on mailing list
back and forths. I've been working on a response, but I also had to pick
someone up from the hospital so haven't had as much time as I'd like to
write something as carefully as I want it to be.
I want to add my +1 for now while I write a more elaborate response so that
no one has to feel like they're in this one alone.
As much as I want people to come out and articulate these issues and
concerns, I especially want them to do it thoughtfully and carefully. As
allies, it's super important to consider the number of contexts that are
all in play with eachother and sometimes operate behind the blinders that
privilege often applies.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Also this would be a stellar time for white allies
interested in social
justice and supporting minority voices to take up the heavy lifting of
explaining why this is all problematic so I do not have to spend more hours
on this topic as the sole voice speaking up and educating.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Bringing this back to the list because, as per
usual I do not enjoy being
contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about white
people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia.
Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
DD party, or even really had heard of it.
Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
lived before.
Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover, it
doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists and non-Christians
in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can see that at on
December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
Does that make sense?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
hi guys:
a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a Bay
Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white people
with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the actual
spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you don't
build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it really
problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not of
this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
-hep
* edited this to be less of a jerk.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello!
> >
> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would like
> to
> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
> >
> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
> transhumanist/Dia de
> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a
> reason
> > anyone would like to block?
> >
> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity
> glittery
> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>
> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>
> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>
> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>
> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
5:53 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like I'm trying to troll the list
or criticize you in public.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics who
do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I
do not enjoy being
contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about white
people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sonja.trauss@gmail.com');>>
wrote:
I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia.
Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
DD party, or even really had heard of it.
Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
lived before.
Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover, it
doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists and non-Christians
in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can see that at on
December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they want
to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
Does that make sense?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','hepkitten@gmail.com');>> wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
hi guys:
a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a Bay
Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white people
with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the actual
spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you don't
build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it really
problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not of
this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
-hep
* edited this to be less of a jerk.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell
<zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello!
>
> The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would like to
> introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>
> I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
transhumanist/Dia de
> los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a
reason
> anyone would like to block?
>
> Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity glittery
> things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
1) check the calendar for conflicts:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
5:58 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
Ok so maybe there's still a chance to keep this from turning into the
proper train-wreck that I'm sensing.
Perhaps you'd like to take a few minutes and re-think those questions and
consider whether or not they're particularly thoughtful and whether you'd
like to re-phrase them and/or retract them?
I think people on the list would be more than willing to consider that they
might have been sent in a moment of heat and that some small amount of
cooling off would let us actually allow this thread to turn into something
more productive....
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the list
or criticize you in public.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics who
do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Bringing this back to the list because, as per
usual I do not enjoy being
contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about white
people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia.
Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
DD party, or even really had heard of it.
Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
lived before.
Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover, it
doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists and non-Christians
in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can see that at on
December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
Does that make sense?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
hi guys:
a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a Bay
Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white people
with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the actual
spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you don't
build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it really
problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not of
this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
-hep
* edited this to be less of a jerk.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello!
> >
> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would like
> to
> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
> >
> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
> transhumanist/Dia de
> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a
> reason
> > anyone would like to block?
> >
> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity
> glittery
> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>
> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>
> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>
> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>
> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
6:05 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
No break it down for me - hep announced she's Hispanic, then announced
there is something wrong with whites celebrating Hispanic holidays.
I assume those statements are connected - are they not? I thought the 1st
one was designed to give some authority to the 2nd one.
My other question is to clarify her statement, if whites can't celebrate
Hispanic holidays, is it also the case that Hispanics must celebrate
Hispanic holidays? The logic behind the prohibition on whites celebrating
Hispanic holidays (whites are appropriating-stealing-'taking away' the
holiday) implies also a positive mandate that Hispanics must celebrate the
holiday. How much more would Hispanics be alienated from DD if they stopped
celebrating it! Is this the case? I'm trying to understand the argument.
On Friday, October 24, 2014, max b <maxb.personal(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ok so maybe there's still a chance to keep this
from turning into the
proper train-wreck that I'm sensing.
Perhaps you'd like to take a few minutes and re-think those questions and
consider whether or not they're particularly thoughtful and whether you'd
like to re-phrase them and/or retract them?
I think people on the list would be more than willing to consider that
they might have been sent in a moment of heat and that some small amount of
cooling off would let us actually allow this thread to turn into something
more productive....
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sonja.trauss@gmail.com');>>
wrote:
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the
list or criticize you in public.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics who
do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','hepkitten@gmail.com');>> wrote:
Bringing this back to the list because, as per
usual I do not enjoy
being contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about
white people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org');>
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia.
Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
DD party, or even really had heard of it.
Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
lived before.
Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover, it
doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists
and non-Christians in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can
see that at on December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
Does that make sense?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> hi guys:
>
> a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a
> Bay Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white
> people with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the
> actual spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you
> don't build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it
> really problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not
> of this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
> questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
> cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
> but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
> wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
> ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
>
> -hep
>
> * edited this to be less of a jerk.
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hello!
>> >
>> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would like
>> to
>> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>> >
>> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
>> transhumanist/Dia de
>> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a
>> reason
>> > anyone would like to block?
>> >
>> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity
>> glittery
>> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>>
>> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>>
>> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>>
>> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>>
>> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
6:56 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
I'm actually quite happy that this discussion is happening at sudo, because
these discussions will affect how culture in a diverse oakland is
approached. As an American born Indian, I'm quite see Indian culture
regularly lifted and abused in all sorts of contexts, especially in white
new age/hippie/techno music circles (having "puja" become a marketing tool
for white folk). Now, keep in mind that I both actively participate in
said culturally appropriative circles (I love electronic music and can't
really avoid this stuff), and also have puja be a part of my mundane daily
existence in my indian family.
If sudo were to have drug addled sex-pujas, more power to you, I may even
join. However, by doing so, I believe you'd effectively alienate 98% of
Indians who may otherwise want to participate in sudo otherwise.
In my view, one reason why can be framed by the idea of the "magical
negro":
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro
What's happening is effectively the dehumanization and squelching of the
mundane and day to day life of one or more people. Now, this happens all
the time with all sorts of culture, so you can't purely blame only white
folks..... But when you put it in the context of racist immigration laws,
unfair wages, police killings, prisons, real estate redlining, and various
other ongoing real hot, living issues, it is a GREAT way to alienate people
in a community. At best you run the risk of treating of reducing sacred
elements to being clown like, at worst is pure outright denial of atrocity.
An extreme example of this occurred a few years ago when some white burners
at the bordello decided to throw a "go native" party where they encouraged
other white burners to dress up like indigenous people around the world.
Of course, this pissed off more than a few people.
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/burners-torched-over-native-party/Con…
(fast forward to now, I actually now KNOW both the people involved with the
party and folks in the native community, and generally like all of them...
But there *IS* a racial disconnect. Ask most any brown/black person and
they will have visceral reactions to these sorts of things).
I WANT cultural exchange. DDM is meant for everyone to participate. But
in my view, a Dia De Los Muertos party -- if we as a sudo community want to
be truly inclusive to Mexican@s -- should be initiated or at least guided
by someone who is Mexican or Mexican-American.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
No break it down for me - hep announced she's
Hispanic, then announced
there is something wrong with whites celebrating Hispanic holidays.
I assume those statements are connected - are they not? I thought the 1st
one was designed to give some authority to the 2nd one.
My other question is to clarify her statement, if whites can't celebrate
Hispanic holidays, is it also the case that Hispanics must celebrate
Hispanic holidays? The logic behind the prohibition on whites celebrating
Hispanic holidays (whites are appropriating-stealing-'taking away' the
holiday) implies also a positive mandate that Hispanics must celebrate the
holiday. How much more would Hispanics be alienated from DD if they stopped
celebrating it! Is this the case? I'm trying to understand the argument.
On Friday, October 24, 2014, max b <maxb.personal(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ok so maybe there's still a chance to keep
this from turning into the
proper train-wreck that I'm sensing.
Perhaps you'd like to take a few minutes and re-think those questions and
consider whether or not they're particularly thoughtful and whether you'd
like to re-phrase them and/or retract them?
I think people on the list would be more than willing to consider that
they might have been sent in a moment of heat and that some small amount of
cooling off would let us actually allow this thread to turn into something
more productive....
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the
list or criticize you in public.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
who do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Bringing this back to the list because, as per
usual I do not enjoy
being contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about
white people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
> white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
> Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
> really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
> DD party, or even really had heard of it.
>
> Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
> never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
> are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
> here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
> Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
> Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
> buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
> Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
> more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
> California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
> lived before.
>
> Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover,
> it doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
> would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
> celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
> makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
> Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists
> and non-Christians in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can
> see that at on December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
> When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
> want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
> Does that make sense?
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hi guys:
>>
>> a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a
>> Bay Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white
>> people with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the
>> actual spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you
>> don't build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it
>> really problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not
>> of this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
>> questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
>> cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
>> but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
>> wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
>> ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
>>
>> -hep
>>
>> * edited this to be less of a jerk.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Hello!
>>> >
>>> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would
>>> like to
>>> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>>> >
>>> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
>>> transhumanist/Dia de
>>> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a
>>> reason
>>> > anyone would like to block?
>>> >
>>> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity
>>> glittery
>>> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>>>
>>> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>>>
>>> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>>>
>>> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>>>
>>> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>
>
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
7:14 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
In fact, why don't you reach out and find more Mexican@ friends to help you
with it and have hispanic folks show up? That way it would be actual
bi-cultural exchange, increasing the diversity of perspectives in sudo and
transhumanism as well, instead of a one way process.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm actually quite happy that this discussion is
happening at sudo,
because these discussions will affect how culture in a diverse oakland is
approached. As an American born Indian, I'm quite see Indian culture
regularly lifted and abused in all sorts of contexts, especially in white
new age/hippie/techno music circles (having "puja" become a marketing tool
for white folk). Now, keep in mind that I both actively participate in
said culturally appropriative circles (I love electronic music and can't
really avoid this stuff), and also have puja be a part of my mundane daily
existence in my indian family.
If sudo were to have drug addled sex-pujas, more power to you, I may even
join. However, by doing so, I believe you'd effectively alienate 98% of
Indians who may otherwise want to participate in sudo otherwise.
In my view, one reason why can be framed by the idea of the "magical
negro":
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro
What's happening is effectively the dehumanization and squelching of the
mundane and day to day life of one or more people. Now, this happens all
the time with all sorts of culture, so you can't purely blame only white
folks..... But when you put it in the context of racist immigration laws,
unfair wages, police killings, prisons, real estate redlining, and various
other ongoing real hot, living issues, it is a GREAT way to alienate people
in a community. At best you run the risk of treating of reducing sacred
elements to being clown like, at worst is pure outright denial of atrocity.
An extreme example of this occurred a few years ago when some white
burners at the bordello decided to throw a "go native" party where they
encouraged other white burners to dress up like indigenous people around
the world. Of course, this pissed off more than a few people.
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/burners-torched-over-native-party/Con…
(fast forward to now, I actually now KNOW both the people involved with
the party and folks in the native community, and generally like all of
them... But there *IS* a racial disconnect. Ask most any brown/black
person and they will have visceral reactions to these sorts of things).
I WANT cultural exchange. DDM is meant for everyone to participate. But
in my view, a Dia De Los Muertos party -- if we as a sudo community want to
be truly inclusive to Mexican@s -- should be initiated or at least guided
by someone who is Mexican or Mexican-American.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
No break it down for me - hep announced she's
Hispanic, then announced
there is something wrong with whites celebrating Hispanic holidays.
I assume those statements are connected - are they not? I thought the 1st
one was designed to give some authority to the 2nd one.
My other question is to clarify her statement, if whites can't celebrate
Hispanic holidays, is it also the case that Hispanics must celebrate
Hispanic holidays? The logic behind the prohibition on whites celebrating
Hispanic holidays (whites are appropriating-stealing-'taking away' the
holiday) implies also a positive mandate that Hispanics must celebrate the
holiday. How much more would Hispanics be alienated from DD if they stopped
celebrating it! Is this the case? I'm trying to understand the argument.
On Friday, October 24, 2014, max b <maxb.personal(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ok so maybe there's still a chance to keep
this from turning into the
proper train-wreck that I'm sensing.
Perhaps you'd like to take a few minutes and re-think those questions
and consider whether or not they're particularly thoughtful and whether
you'd like to re-phrase them and/or retract them?
I think people on the list would be more than willing to consider that
they might have been sent in a moment of heat and that some small amount of
cooling off would let us actually allow this thread to turn into something
more productive....
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the
list or criticize you in public.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
who do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I do not enjoy
> being contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about
> white people's entitlement to my culture.
>
> This is a problem.
>
> -hep
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 45,45,10
>> black, white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian,
>> Vietnamese, Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of
>> the dead is really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never
>> went to a DD party, or even really had heard of it.
>>
>> Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
>> never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
>> are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
>> here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
>> Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
>> Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
>> buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
>> Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
>> more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
>> California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
>> lived before.
>>
>> Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover,
>> it doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
>> would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
>> celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
>> makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
>> Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists
>> and non-Christians in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can
>> see that at on December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
>> When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
>> want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
>> Does that make sense?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> hi guys:
>>>
>>> a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a
>>> Bay Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white
>>> people with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the
>>> actual spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you
>>> don't build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find
it
>>> really problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not
>>> of this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
>>> questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
>>> cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
>>> but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
>>> wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
>>> ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
>>>
>>> -hep
>>>
>>> * edited this to be less of a jerk.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell
<zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Hello!
>>>> >
>>>> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would
>>>> like to
>>>> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>>>> >
>>>> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
>>>> transhumanist/Dia de
>>>> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a
>>>> reason
>>>> > anyone would like to block?
>>>> >
>>>> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity
>>>> glittery
>>>> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>>>>
>>>> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>>>>
>>>> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>>>>
>>>> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>>>>
>>>> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
29 Oct
29 Oct
4:40 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
1. All Hispanic cultures are not a monolith, as all mexican cultures
aren't, and all Latino cultures are not. Whether Latino/Hispanic/Mexican
people choose to celebrate holidays or not has nothing to do with the fact
that white people co-opting those same holidays is cultural appropriation.
This is a strawman argument.
2. Hispanic/Latino/Mexican people do not need you, a white person, to tell
them how to be Latino/Hispanic/Mexican. Can we keep away from these kinds
of "whites say this kind of Mexican is the only acceptable form" ideas?
Because we are running perilously close to that.
3. Again, Hispanic/Latino/Mexican people are not a monolith. One person not
minding you celebrating the holidays doesn't co-sign that as OK for the
group anymore than one black person not caring if you use the N word makes
it OK to use in any company.
4. Saying that white people celebrating DDLM on their own is cultural
appropriation isn't speaking for the group, it is possible and acceptable
for many people of the group to have many conflicting ideas. It is for the
group to work out, not for white people to come in and tell people what to
think and how to think it.
5. If you learned about these kinds of racist and white supremacist thought
patterns in college I am confused as to why we are essentially doing Racism
101 on this list at this point? Is it because you want to make minorities
do the heavy lifting for you? Can you not seek out answers to these
questions (which have been exhaustively covered both in POC circles as
manuals to white people, or by white people such as Tim Wise) on your own?
Why are we at the point of wasting hours of my life as a hispanic educating
you on basic racism and cultural appropriation at this point?
-Hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
No break it down for me - hep announced she's
Hispanic, then announced
there is something wrong with whites celebrating Hispanic holidays.
I assume those statements are connected - are they not? I thought the 1st
one was designed to give some authority to the 2nd one.
My other question is to clarify her statement, if whites can't celebrate
Hispanic holidays, is it also the case that Hispanics must celebrate
Hispanic holidays? The logic behind the prohibition on whites celebrating
Hispanic holidays (whites are appropriating-stealing-'taking away' the
holiday) implies also a positive mandate that Hispanics must celebrate the
holiday. How much more would Hispanics be alienated from DD if they stopped
celebrating it! Is this the case? I'm trying to understand the argument.
On Friday, October 24, 2014, max b <maxb.personal(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok so maybe there's still a chance to keep this from turning into the
> proper train-wreck that I'm sensing.
>
> Perhaps you'd like to take a few minutes and re-think those questions and
> consider whether or not they're particularly thoughtful and whether you'd
> like to re-phrase them and/or retract them?
>
> I think people on the list would be more than willing to consider that
> they might have been sent in a moment of heat and that some small amount of
> cooling off would let us actually allow this thread to turn into something
> more productive....
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like I'm trying to troll the
>> list or criticize you in public.
>>
>> But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
>> read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
>> What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
>> who do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
>> particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
>> Hispanics?
>>
>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I do not enjoy
>>> being contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about
>>> white people's entitlement to my culture.
>>>
>>> This is a problem.
>>>
>>> -hep
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 45,45,10
black,
>>>> white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
>>>> Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead
is
>>>> really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to
a
>>>> DD party, or even really had heard of it.
>>>>
>>>> Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
>>>> never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
>>>> are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic
population
>>>> here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
>>>> Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans).
The
>>>> Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
>>>> buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
>>>> Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here
know
>>>> more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point
is,
>>>> California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
>>>> lived before.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover,
>>>> it doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
>>>> would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
>>>> celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead)
also
>>>> makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
>>>> Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists
>>>> and non-Christians in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you
can
>>>> see that at on December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
>>>> When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
>>>> want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive
here.
>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hi guys:
>>>>>
>>>>> a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a
>>>>> Bay Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly
white
>>>>> people with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in
the
>>>>> actual spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically
if you
>>>>> don't build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i
find it
>>>>> really problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are
clearly not
>>>>> of this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even
more
>>>>> questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
>>>>> cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of
reasons
>>>>> but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to.
what is
>>>>> wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to
the
>>>>> ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
>>>>>
>>>>> -hep
>>>>>
>>>>> * edited this to be less of a jerk.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell
<zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > Hello!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We
would
>>>>>> like to
>>>>>> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
>>>>>> transhumanist/Dia de
>>>>>> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is
there a
>>>>>> reason
>>>>>> > anyone would like to block?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses!
Post-singularity
>>>>>> glittery
>>>>>> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>>>>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
1 Nov
1 Nov
11:24 a.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
hep,
Please quit the rabid accusation of cultural appropriation. It is ugly,
cuz the people of this community are basically "culture warriors", most of
whom I am sure are very keen to be respectful, who basically walk on
cultural eggshells in a concerted effort to be inclusive and
non-alienating. And why? THEY KNOW THAT CULTURAL EXCHANGE IS IMPORTANT.
You are not arguing with some pro sportsball attendees who saw a DDLM
Budweisser commercial and decided to wear facepaint.
People are not taking away what DDLM is to you, your fam, or your
ancestors, by having their own celebration. Exactly what it means to you
may not be what it means to others, who, even by your own questionless
reckoning, have "the right" to partake of that culture.
You don't own culture. Do you think DDLM should have copyright protection?
Were born into cultural royalty? Somewhere in the past, your ancestors
took up some ideas and went with them. Who knows, maybe they were forced
to by the state keepers of the day!
Accusations of cultural appropriation begs way too many questions of who
owns what, and by which rights. It is silly. It makes you talk about
culture the way capitalist's talk about everything for which they paid
money.
I choose which culture that *I* *don't want to appropriate,* and let the
rest of all the good the world has right on thru my door. That is why I
don't wear business suits. And all the guru's in India couldn't keep me
from practicing asana, and I bet very few of them want to.
Big Ass Commercial interests co-opt culture, not sudo room hackers. When a
people choose to get with some new culture, it is because it has some
rewarding effect, some positive feedback, and that is why good culture
spreads. Cultural appropriation is actually good (co-opting is bad). Isn't
that why we basically rely on culture in the struggle against statism and
capitalism? Culture crosses borders. That is what is does.
see ya'll at the ball,
<3
On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
1. All Hispanic cultures are not a monolith, as all
mexican cultures
aren't, and all Latino cultures are not. Whether Latino/Hispanic/Mexican
people choose to celebrate holidays or not has nothing to do with the fact
that white people co-opting those same holidays is cultural appropriation.
This is a strawman argument.
2. Hispanic/Latino/Mexican people do not need you, a white person, to tell
them how to be Latino/Hispanic/Mexican. Can we keep away from these kinds
of "whites say this kind of Mexican is the only acceptable form" ideas?
Because we are running perilously close to that.
3. Again, Hispanic/Latino/Mexican people are not a monolith. One person
not minding you celebrating the holidays doesn't co-sign that as OK for the
group anymore than one black person not caring if you use the N word makes
it OK to use in any company.
4. Saying that white people celebrating DDLM on their own is cultural
appropriation isn't speaking for the group, it is possible and acceptable
for many people of the group to have many conflicting ideas. It is for the
group to work out, not for white people to come in and tell people what to
think and how to think it.
5. If you learned about these kinds of racist and white supremacist
thought patterns in college I am confused as to why we are essentially
doing Racism 101 on this list at this point? Is it because you want to make
minorities do the heavy lifting for you? Can you not seek out answers to
these questions (which have been exhaustively covered both in POC circles
as manuals to white people, or by white people such as Tim Wise) on your
own? Why are we at the point of wasting hours of my life as a hispanic
educating you on basic racism and cultural appropriation at this point?
-Hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
No break it down for me - hep announced she's
Hispanic, then announced
there is something wrong with whites celebrating Hispanic holidays.
I assume those statements are connected - are they not? I thought the 1st
one was designed to give some authority to the 2nd one.
My other question is to clarify her statement, if whites can't celebrate
Hispanic holidays, is it also the case that Hispanics must celebrate
Hispanic holidays? The logic behind the prohibition on whites celebrating
Hispanic holidays (whites are appropriating-stealing-'taking away' the
holiday) implies also a positive mandate that Hispanics must celebrate the
holiday. How much more would Hispanics be alienated from DD if they stopped
celebrating it! Is this the case? I'm trying to understand the argument.
On Friday, October 24, 2014, max b <maxb.personal(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok so maybe there's still a chance to keep this from turning into the
> proper train-wreck that I'm sensing.
>
> Perhaps you'd like to take a few minutes and re-think those questions
> and consider whether or not they're particularly thoughtful and whether
> you'd like to re-phrase them and/or retract them?
>
> I think people on the list would be more than willing to consider that
> they might have been sent in a moment of heat and that some small amount of
> cooling off would let us actually allow this thread to turn into something
> more productive....
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like I'm trying to troll the
>> list or criticize you in public.
>>
>> But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
>> read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
>> What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
>> who do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
>> particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
>> Hispanics?
>>
>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I do not enjoy
>>> being contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about
>>> white people's entitlement to my culture.
>>>
>>> This is a problem.
>>>
>>> -hep
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 45,45,10
>>>> black, white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian,
>>>> Vietnamese, Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day
of
>>>> the dead is really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I
never
>>>> went to a DD party, or even really had heard of it.
>>>>
>>>> Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
>>>> never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
>>>> are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic
population
>>>> here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
>>>> Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans).
The
>>>> Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
>>>> buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
>>>> Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here
know
>>>> more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point
is,
>>>> California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
>>>> lived before.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover,
>>>> it doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
>>>> would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
>>>> celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead)
also
>>>> makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
>>>> Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists
>>>> and non-Christians in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you
can
>>>> see that at on December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
>>>> When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
>>>> want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive
here.
>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hi guys:
>>>>>
>>>>> a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a
>>>>> Bay Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly
white
>>>>> people with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in
the
>>>>> actual spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically
if you
>>>>> don't build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i
find it
>>>>> really problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are
clearly not
>>>>> of this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even
more
>>>>> questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
>>>>> cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of
reasons
>>>>> but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to.
what is
>>>>> wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to
the
>>>>> ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
>>>>>
>>>>> -hep
>>>>>
>>>>> * edited this to be less of a jerk.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell
<zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > Hello!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We
would
>>>>>> like to
>>>>>> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
>>>>>> transhumanist/Dia de
>>>>>> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is
there a
>>>>>> reason
>>>>>> > anyone would like to block?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses!
Post-singularity
>>>>>> glittery
>>>>>> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>>>>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
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9 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Hep Svadja -
Johnny -
max b -
Praveen Sinha -
Sonja Trauss