One other thing: Using the District of Columbia as an historical example of "neutrality" is severely problematic, considering the disenfranchisement of the people who live within the district. Sure, I get the point of what is being said, I just think it's irresponsible to use abstract examples like that, when the lived reality of those examples has led to oppression. Art McGee On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Art McGee <amcgee(a)gmail.com> wrote: Greetings, I'm curious, but would not this post have been more appropriate for the sudo-discuss list? I assume you may not be aware of it. As for your specific point about the American Civil War being about states' rights, that just makes me say hummmm... :-\ I'm going to do the Fanonian thing and not shout, since I'm too tired for that anymore, but I will just add that in the opinion of a lot of historians, some of them Anarchists, the "battle for power" between U.S. states and the Federal government is simply that, a battle for power, but it doesn't tell you anything about why the states want that power. It doesn't tell you anything about the motivating factors behind such a long-standing struggle, which, if you're unfamiliar with U.S. history, could lead you to the erroneous conclusion that it's a neutral "freedom" thing. It's not. I think you already know this, but your phrasing triggered my White Supremacy detector, so I had to respond. :-) Oh, and since I've now delurked and am posting on this discuss list, I'll just say that I live in Oakland but haven't as yet made it around to the sudo room in person (I'm hoping to change that in the upcoming year). Art McGee On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:50 AM, aestetix <aestetix(a)aestetix.com> wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've been lurking for a while, but this caught my attention. Especially given that I recently watched the musical 1776. IMHO, we're at a turning point in history. I spent part of this morning watching the testimony on healthcare.gov, and seeing the interplay of lawyers and technologists. We seem to be sandwiched between two paradigms: the NSA/Omnicorp merger from Prism and other Snowden leaks, and totally unrealistic valuations of companies like Snapchat, which apparently just turned down a $3 billion cash acquisition offer from Facebook. That spells out a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. The one common theme we've seen through the history of the US is the battle for power between State and Federal governments. This is what the Civil War was *really* about, why laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1965 are so important, and why the most recent government shut-down happened. And inherent to this power battle, for which there is no "better" side, is the will of the people. How do we overcome the tragedy of the commons enough to build a system that generally, kind of sort of works? It's hard to practice what one preaches if there's no cost. For example, it's easy to use Google/etc, until the government subpoenas your email and search history and uses that as evidence (hidden via State Secrets) to throw you in jail. I speak on this with several friends who are either in jail or dead because of bad laws, and many more who have been harassed, detained, in most cases for doing nothing more than dissenting. This is why I agree strongly with Eddan about the notion of neutrality. I haven't kept up with sudo room as much lately, partly because I don't have the time/energy to engage in some of the transitions that were going on. I'm beginning to get to a point where I can re-engage with people working on projects tackling these kinds of issues. I suppose we shall see what happens. Back into the woodwork, aestetix - --- I've often thought of Sudo Room a little bit like the District of Columbia. and Rachel's subject for her email reminded me of that. It is often forgotten that there was a first constitution of the United States after Independence before the one that people call the Constitution. It was called the Confederacy of States. The nation's capital was in Philadelphia and through a series of events ended up moving to a newly formed neutral district - that we all know now as DC. It wasn't just a series of events, but a structural flaw in the Confederacy that doomed itself. As James Madison wrote in Federalist 43, "We have seen the inconvenience of this omission, and the assumption of power into which Congress have been led by it. With great propriety, therefore, has the new system supplied the defect. The general precaution, that no new States shall be formed, without the concurrence of the federal authority, and that of the States concerned, is consonant to the principles which ought to govern such transactions." As population grew and the country was further colonized by the European settlers, the creation of new states turned into a disuniting disaster. Different coalitions of states banded together to promote their collective interest at the expense of others. Those states excluded formed their own alliances and there were many cries of treason thrown around back and forth. Each cluster thought of themselves as the "us" and the others as the "them" until the "them" became the "us" and the "us" was "them". And so on. So while New York, New Jersey, Virginia, Maryland - all wanted the new federal seat of power in their states, a deal was struck to create a district that didn't belong to any particular state. They all wanted to have the center of the nation's power in their territories. And this is how we got in Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution, the provision saying: "To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular States and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States; and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislatures of the States in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings." I'm not sure we need forts and magazines and arsenals and such, but I still think we need a neutral center so that no particular cluster confuses themselves as being what constitutes Sudo Room. Only when the country adopted a political structure that transformed the "us" and "them" into we - did the agreement amongst them create stability and mutual respect that made them united states. _______________________________________________ sudo-announce mailing list sudo-announce(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-announce _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss