7 Feb
2015
7 Feb
'15
11:33 p.m.
Hey all, let's tone this down. A lot.
Maybe certain aspects of this discussion should be held off thread? And mediated?
This is a public list.
There's no need for abusive language, from anyone. For any reason.
And Ryan, it seems to me, the previous message mentioned "women" as an example,
not as directly pointing at you.
Yes, there are flaws in how our "rules" are enforced. That being said, if anyone
find complaint, they are more than welcome to bring the topic up in discussion at a
meeting, with a proposal/ideas on how we can rectify any faults.
~ Korl
510.671.0824
500px.com/soenke-v
On Feb 7, 2015, 11:28 PM, at 11:28 PM, Ryan <yandoryn(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not a fucking woman, thank you, and when
I'm sexually assaulted it
should also be easy to ban someone.
On Feb 7, 2015 11:07 PM, "Al Sweigart" <asweigart(a)gmail.com> wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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discuss(a)lists.omnicommons.org
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> Sudo room follows the rules until it
doesn't make sense to follow
the
rules.
Isn't that just the same thing as selectively enforcing the rules? If
the
rules "don't make sense", it should
be easy enough to get everyone to
vote
to modify/delete/append the rules. Otherwise,
this is just asking for
popular people in the group getting to decide when the rules don't
apply to
them.
It's easy enough to boot abusive people from Omni Commons when
they're
drunk and getting into women's personal space
and being a creep. But
where
the policies of a space are tested is if they
hold up against
powerful
people. That goes for groups of people big and
small.
So, I kind of figured that mine would be an easy question to answer
(Is it
66% to ban or 100% to unban?) but if no one
actually knows the
answer, then
it points to something that should probably be
discussed.
On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Torrie Fischer
<tdfischer(a)hackerbots.net>
wrote:
> Rah rah policy and whatnot.
>
> Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make sense to follow
the
> rules.
>
> This thread (along with other previous threads) has seen a lot of
energy
> put
> into dissecting the intricate hoops of policy and procedure that
have been
> built to figure out loopholes and whatnot.
They're quite ornate,
really.
> Wonderful things, if thats your kink.
>
> Instead of investing more energy into this flavor of turing tarpit
by
> throwing
> around voting percentages, decision approval workflows, ambiguous
> wording, and
> whatnot, maybe its best to start by revisiting the original problem:
>
> How does Sudo Room, as a member of the Omni
collective-of-collectives,
> keep
> the people they want at Sudo Room and reliably push away people who
don't
> belong?
>
> (For the record, I try to avoid the wednesday meetings because
during my
> last
> few visits I almost fell asleep when it turned into omni delegate
meeting
> discussion about how to lawyer it out in
"consensus")
>
> On Friday, February 06, 2015 10:31:14 AM Al Sweigart wrote:
> > Okay. So if I'm reading this right, the CRP has a mediation
process
> where
> > terminating a membership requires 2/3 vote. However, for safe
space
> issues
> > someone can be temporarily banned immediately by an individual
member,
> > which can then only be overturned by a
100% consensus (under the
"All
> other
> > conflicts" category in the CRP)? Or when it says "a temporary ban
may be
> > put in place until the Omni's
conflict resolution process can be
> followed
> > to resolution" does that mean they are banned until a 2/3 vote to
> > permanently ban them is made (as it says in the CRP)?
> >
> > Basically, I want to know if, after the temp ban, it takes a 100%
vote
> to
> > unban the abusive person or a 66% vote to ban the abusive person.
The
> CRP
> > and Safer Space Policy aren't clear cut on that (unless I'm
missing
> > something in the wording).
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:12 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 5, 2015, Al Sweigart <asweigart(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >> I was hoping someone could clear a few things up:
> > >>
> > >> 1) Is Perry, right now, banned from the Omni Commons space?
> > >
> > > Yes, any member (but not guest) is empowered to temporarily ban
-
> pending
> > > conflict mediation - anyone else so following a safe space
violation
> which
> > > is what this is. I will bring it up also at the delegates
meeting.
> See our
> > > Safe Space and Conflict Resolution policies on our wiki (on
phone,
> don't
> > > have the links to hand but they are in the sidebar)
> > >
> > >> 2) If not, is any member unilaterally empowered to ban him
right
now?
> > >
> > > See above
> > >
> > >> 3) And if that happened, would he only be unbanned is through
100%
> > >> consensus of the entire group?
> > >
> > > He would be unbanned following the process set forth in Conflict
> > > Resolution.
> > >
> > >> 4) And would this consensus be reached at a CDC meeting or
another
> > >> meeting?
> > >
> > > See conflict resolution process. Thanks!
> > >
> > >> -Al
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Steve Bloom
<stevebloom55(a)gmail.com>
> > >>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> He's a guitar teacher of some sort, IIRC with a poster in the
> entry, so
> > >>> perhaps has some connection to musical activities at Omni.
I've
> > >>> experienced him too, both
times somewhat drunk and having lost
his
> sense
> > >>> of
> > >>> boundaries in part. I didn't feel threatened, but I can see
how
> most
> > >>> would.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Ryan <yandoryn(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >>>> I like the phrase
space-invaded because it just made me think
of
> Space
> > >>>> Invaders which made me think of making a Safe Space top-down
> shooter
> > >>>> video
> > >>>> game, which made me smile.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Jenny Ryan
<tunabananas(a)gmail.com>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>> Oh, *that* dude. So sorry you were space-invaded, Ryan :(
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I remember being in the mezzanine when Perry was in the
ballroom,
> > >>>>> reading Sarah's
report about the incident with him peeking
into
> the
> > >>>>> Disco
> > >>>>> Room, then overheard him say to someone on the phone about
being
> asked
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>> stop, "Dude, I was just looking at this beautiful
naked
dancer, I
> mean
> > >>>>> wow"
> > >>>>> and turning to Matt or Marc, can't recall, and fuming
that
I'd
> love to
> > >>>>> go
> > >>>>> kick that creep out of the space.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Wish I had then. Fully in support of his ban but don't
personally
> have
> > >>>>> the bandwidth to steward a mediation process. I think he
might
> know
> > >>>>> Gabby
> > >>>>> from Rise Above, or seemed to be helping / around that area
some.
> > >>>>> CC'ing
> > >>>>> her to see if she has his contact info.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> /jnny
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 02/03/2015 02:49 PM, David Keenan wrote:
> > >>>>> > Hi all,
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Yes, I agree, this person should persona non grata
pending
> > >>>>> > mediation.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Perry is an olderish white guy musician who comes
around
> sometimes,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> much of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > the time seriously drunk it would appear. Being drunk
seems to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> clearly
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > impair his judgement and his actions become invasive
to
others
> in
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> the ways
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > Ryan describes.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > My history with him is only the following. I first
talked
to
> him a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> while
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > ago asking him to turn down his electric guitar in the
ballroom
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> while a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > large meeting was taking place in La Commune - he
complied. I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> noticed he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > really did reek of alcohol. I asked if he volunteered
with
any
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> collective,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > he said FNB - but he didn't know where the kitchen
was, or
that
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> there was
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > even a basement, which rang alarm bells for me (ie, it
was
> probably
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> a fib.)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > I later followed up with Helen and Joe and they said
they
had
> never
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> heard
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > of him, and that sometimes people 'say' theyre
in FNB but
aren't
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> really..
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > Anyhow, Perry left the ballroom and wandered upstairs
by
the
> kitchen
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> above
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > La Commune, now playing the mandolin -
'quietly', yes -
but alas
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> still
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > distracting to those in the large meeting below, and I
again
> asked
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> if he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > could play music in the basement or another room in
the
building
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> until the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > meeting as finished - he complied, but seemed pretty
out
of it
> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> not
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > understanding why (drunk).
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > I later found out that while upstairs he was
'peeking'
into the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Disco Room
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > on a dance rehearsal that made those inside feel
uncomfortable
> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sarah
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > sent an email out to that effect. Next time I saw him,
I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> re-introduced
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > myself, took him up to the dance room and let him know
that they
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> require
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > privacy and to not do that. He said he had something
of
one the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> dancers
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > inside and was trying to return it to her.. I did not
verify
> whether
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> this
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > was true or not, but since the dancers did not seem to
know
> him, it
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> seems
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > doubtful.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Then, one day after that, he was walking into the
building
and I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> admittedly
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > gave him a bit of a 'side-eye' on the way in
because I
wasn't
> sure
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> if he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > was wasted or what. He himself came up to me and said,
"why'd
> you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> give me
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > that look?", and I said, it appears you come into
the
building
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> drunk, and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > we can't have drunk people in here - you
aren't known to
our
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> community, and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > I don't know what you will do in that state. I
said if you
want
> to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> get
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > drunk, try not to come here. To his credit he admitted
being
> drunk
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > aforementioned day, agreed it was unacceptable, and
said
that
> wasn't
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> going
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > to happen again.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > But, since it has happened again, to my mind that is
grounds to
> ban
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> him
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > pending mediation that he will have to arrange.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Does anyone know him, or have his email?
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Best,
> > >>>>> > David
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ryan
<yandoryn(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>>> > > fwding this to sudo and cdc as well
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >>>>> > > From: Ryan <yandoryn(a)gmail.com>
> > >>>>> > > Date: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:59 PM
> > >>>>> > > Subject: Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry
> > >>>>> > > To: "discuss(a)lists.omnicommons.org"
<
> discuss(a)lists.omnicommons.org
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >,
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > > David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > Perry, who as far as I know is not affiliated
with any
> collective
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> in the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > space, was at the Omni until late last night. He
was
heavily
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> inebriated and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > reeked of alcohol.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > In attempting to talk with me, he got incredibly
touchy-feely
> and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> further
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > invaded my space, getting so close that I could
feel his
> breath on
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> my skin.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > I informed him loudly that touch needs to be
consensual
in the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> space and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > that he should ask me before touching me. I told
him
that the
> safe
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> space
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > policy is next to the front door and that he
should read
it. I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> managed to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > get away from him, but he followed me outside.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > Ribre (sp?) was outside with her guitar and he
sat down
next
> to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> her,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > invaded her space, and tried to strike up a
seemingly
very
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> uncomfortable
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > conversation. She told him that whatever he was
talking
about
> was
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> something
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > that he'd have to deal with on his own, not
with her,
and
> that she
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> cannot
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > deal with drunk men, and that they make her
unsafe.
Instead of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ceasing the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > conversation, he got closer and tried to tell her
that
they
> needed
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > continue it.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > He continued in this vein for a while longer,
until I
loudly
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> informed him
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > that the conversation was not consensual and he
needed
to
> stop. He
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> started
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > to argue with me, however RAYC was able to defuse
Perry
and
> lead
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> him away
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > from the interaction.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > I spoke to Kwe and Juul before they left, to make
sure I
had
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> backup if I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > needed to ask Perry to leave the building.
Eventually, I
was
> the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> only
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > member left in the building, so I asked RAYC to
shut
down the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> building for
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > me, and that I was only comfortable vouching for
him and
> Nicholas.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> RAYC got
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > Perry to leave.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > I spoke with David Keenan this morning,
explaining the
> situation,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> and DK
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > said that he has spoken to Perry in the past
about his
> behaviour,
> > >>>>> > > specifically his behaviour when under the
influence of
> alcohol. I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> will let
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > DK speak more to that.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > Is anyone aware of a collective that Perry is
involved
with?
> In my
> > >>>>> > > conversation with DK, he said that when he spoke
to
Perry he
> said
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> he was
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > with FNB, but was probably lying, as he
didn't even know
> where the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> kitchen
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > was. Regardless, I ask that Perry be banned from
the
Omni,
> pending
> > >>>>> > > mediation, as his actions clearly violate our
safe space
> policy
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> and he
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > refused to take action to alter his behaviour.
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > >>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > >>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Jenny
> > >>>>> http://jennyryan.net
> > >>>>> http://sudomesh.org
> > >>>>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
> > >>>>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
> > >>>>> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our
stories."
> > >>>>> -Laurie Anderson
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the
error
of
defining
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>>>>> it."
>>>>> -Hannah Arendt
>>>>>
>>>>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
>>>>> -Stéphane Mallarmé
>>>>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>> discuss(a)lists.omnicommons.org
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> cdc(a)lists.omnicommons.org
>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/cdc