7 Jul
2014
7 Jul
'14
6:52 p.m.
I'm sorry that this conversation has become so emotionally charged -
thought I can only *guess* at what people are actually feeling over email.
I apologize if I misunderstood your intentions. It was certainly not *my*
intention to silence anyone or to suggest that anyone had made any
definitive plans, only to say that it might be fair to consult with other
people who might be affected by such a proposal. And as it seems like that
is the intention of putting together a proposal, forgive me for any
statements I made that suggested otherwise.
I am worried about how much anger it seems is being communicated and
wondering where that's coming from. I don't know if it's possible to work
that out over email - hopefully we can talk about this more in person.
I'm pretty sure that no one means anyone else any ill will - I think that
people just want to be included and it can feel a little bit intimidating
if a) you're not comfortable with participating in these email threads and
b) your group is small and new and just getting their bearings among the
other collectives.
I say all of this with love and nothing but the best of intentions.
Niki
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Please don't misconstrue my language.
If folks are participating in good faith, and they are not met with
sincere appreciation (not just rhetoric), they will no longer be interested
in participating. People who are willing to help will walk away if they do
not feel like it is worth their time.
I do not have interest in working on the physical network for the building
at this point. It seems like some other(s) may be able to manage it fine on
their own.
Anyone else interested?
// Matt
p.s. Nothing has been definitive in this topic. What I was hoping to
achieve with Daniel was a clear, succinct proposal to bring back to
everyone. The presumption from David has been that "we" (sudo?) just want
to railroad over everyone, despite protests from me (and others) about this
false assumption. I find this situation to be based on an assumption of bad
faith (despite the "good faith" rhetoric) since "we" (sudo?) are
"colonizing" the building (or something?)--not "improving" it or
"participating" in it. Willingness to hear a proposal does not imply
commitment. Obsession with deflecting the possibility of a proposal is
*silencing* and is a practice that drains communities of their energy.
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:21 PM, niki <niki.shelley(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Whoah, y'all!
I think the main issue here is that the people involved w/Backspace
aren't being included in this conversation.
It may very well be that that space cannot be converted into a
consultation room for Backspace, but those who may be affected by that
should at least be given a chance to participate in a dialogue about
whatever it is that ends up happening and what that will mean for their
ability to practice in the building.
Saying things like "Can't wait to see the plans..." / "Good
luck!" feels
like a real personal attack and really unnecessary / unsupportive -
especially when it's being directed towards one person because they are the
member of Backspace who happens to be on this particular mailing list.
Especially when that one person agreed to come on board to help Backspace
as an act of mutual aid.
I also feel like questions that have been put forth in good faith such
as, "Why can't the server racks be stored in Sudo?" have not been
answered.
If there's a good reason, that's awesome. All I'm hearing, however, is a
lack of willingness to have a conversation about potentially repurposing a
space that another group had planned on using and all of the reasons why
this is the only / best space for the server racks.
I think that's all anyone's asking for! An opportunity to participate in
the dialogue and an explanation as to why this space must be used for this
purpose over any other space.
Love,
Niki
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
To: David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
Cc: "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
David,
Great, looking forward to you setting up the network somewhere as well as
building out that store room in some way or other.
Can't wait to see the plans, approval, and funding for the store room.
Maybe in the next 4-6 months?
You may want to note what Daniel said about 4ft of clearance (or similar)
around those electrical panels. I think this may be the page of
regulations:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&am…
Wow, that's going to be a lot of work.
Good luck!
// Matt
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 5:48 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Jeez..
Matt, do you require all of the Backspace Wellness Collective to join
sudo-discuss email list to have this discussion collectively (and
therefore, productively), or inter-collectively as the case may be? We are
not all on Sudo's email list. Yes, I am on sudo's list, therefore I am
responding on behalf of many members of Backspace, because I, unlike You,
am in communication with all members of that collective whom are, unlike
You (or Sudo since You speak for all of us Sudoers?), most
likely negatively affected by this proposition. But this discussion really
should take place at the Omni meeting and/or on the omnilogistics list, or
at the very least, on backspace's list or at their meeting, since You are
talking about building something in Backspace, not the other way around...
if that makes sense?
This area you are speaking of is not Backspace 'with plans' to use that
room - any more than Sudo has 'plans' to use its room: Sudo is already in
that room, and Backspace is are already in their area too (a small cluster
of rooms). The area is clearly marked on the floorplan as Backspace and
this use has been discussed numerous times in meetings for a long time, as
has its rehabilitation, because its in poor shape.
Backspace is a small group with an enormous burden of tasks with respect
to rehabing that space and getting operations up and running. Sudo is a
comparatively large group with comparatively far less to do in
Sudo's own space to be functional. Backspace has a LOT to do with far less
resources, and I would ask that folks be kind to Backspace when demanding
things like build dates. Build dates are only a part of the timeline.
What it (worryingly to me) feels like is that You are insinuating is
that this is not Backspace, it is rather Your space to do whatever You
think is best with it. The corollary to this is that Backspace's existence
is itself also merely a 'plan' - I assure you, it is not only that. That
you do not go to Backspace meetings, doesnt mean that it, or the people in
it, do not exist. Yes, it is new, like the cafe, but it is also been a part
of the omni project for a while with all of the real life effort that
entails.
Please lets all be kind to one another? We have only been in the
building one week. There is a lot of shared space in the Omni, and I think
its fair to say that a really compelling case has to be made if you need to
build something in someone else's space, rather than Sudo's own space or
in shared space.
In addition, I would guess it would not be not clear to backspace that a
rack of servers anywhere in the building actually will necessarily benefit
them or anyone else that is not Sudo. Pretty much the only thing I can
think if controlling door access and building-related infrastructure like a
couple of switches, maybe an AP controller. Does that take a whole rack?
Everything is Sudo.
What I would suggest is that several possibilities for a rack outside of
Sudo are explored and planned, and that the options are presented at the
Omnilogistics meeting so they can be discussed by everyone, not just
Sudoers. Does that seem fair?
On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com> wrote:
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So what you are saying is that You (on behalf of
Backspace) have plans
to add improvements to that room (at some point soon, requiring approval
from the landlord and financed presumably by Backspace). Further, that You
(on behalf of backspace with plans for using that room) do not want any
network devices or other omni-wide usage in that space since you'll both be
building in it and using it in some way for Backspace after you are done
building in it.
Is that correct?
If so, what are the anticipated the build dates? And what stage are you
at in terms of approvals? And what stage are you at in terms of financing?
Thanks,
Matt
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:29 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> I agree with you Matt 1000% on assuming good faith.
>
> I am super pleased that people take it upon themselves to tend to all
> that needs doing - it was in the first line of my first two initial emails
> on this project.
>
> Putting servers into backspace right now may seems like the easiest /
> OSPF as a temporary, provisional measure for a couple of days.. I
> wonder, will it be just as easy to remove them in a few days when we
> begin laying up drywall in there and start refinishing that room, filling
> it with debris?
>
> After the room is finished, if the servers are too loud for sudo/ccl
> 's 3.2k sq ft room - how loud do you think it will sound in a room a
> fraction the size with practitioners in it trying to treat folks with
> ailments, or get a relaxing tuia-na massage, or meditate, or quietly work
> / read etc? A absolutely central idea of backspace is being a quiet space,
> while 41U of servers sounds not unlike a jet engine in my experience.
>
> Y'all, I really do have sudo's best interests at heart, and I would
> urge everyone reading this that expressing concerns like these is not any
> attempt to stomp on our collective creative do-o-cratic urges, but simply
> an good-hearted attempt, however adumbrated or limited it may be, to be
> practical and thoughtful by incorporating germane variables into a viable
> server room plan that might lie outside your current matrix.
>
> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't micro-manage creativity.
>> Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems
>> right now; this will not always be true.
>> Assume good faith.
>>
>> This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions
>> are:
>>
>> What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very
>> soon.
>> What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for
>> network devices, without intractable costs.
>> What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are
>> convenient and already appropriate for setting up network devices (fast,
>> easy) and (b) places that allow for integrating network devices into the
>> heating/cooling systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require
>> coordination, approval, and implementation with potential extra costs).
>> What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity.
>>
>> In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon as
>> possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems.
>>
>> // Matt
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into
>>> the basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the
>>>> blower from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap.
On the west
>>>> side, there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus
>>>> windows above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the
>>>> barr-room bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool
>>>> air (without a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could
pull
>>>> cool air from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent
>>>> heat from the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces
>>>> use, or vent heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent
perhaps
>>>> to that lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C
from
>>>> the compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of
the
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to
>>>> exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go -
>>>> needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC.
It's
>>>> a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help
>>>> sorting out, and I would really love it if we could.
>>>>
>>>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the
>>>> basement and space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another
>>>> equally pressing aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it
may be
>>>> a good idea to set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but
I
>>>> am open to suggestions about how best to comprise this.
>>>>
>>>> Love
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack
>>>>> servers and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort
into
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use
>>>>> others' space and shared space, I feel the only real missing
piece in the
>>>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much
>>>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any
>>>>> other group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building -
especially
>>>>> for their very own space which they have already been promised are
>>>>> technically in possession of.
>>>>>
>>>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible
>>>>> place things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack
should
>>>>> *not* go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere
in
>>>>> the building, I think that's a conversation that should include
others in
>>>>> the building too, not just sudoers, because it affects others'
planning and
>>>>> use of space.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any
>>>>> build-out, and all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC
as a
>>>>> whole. This doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings -
its simply
>>>>> a way to try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert
with
>>>>> other groups in the space.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack
>>>>> into what is presently another group's dedicated space
(Backspace), that
>>>>> particular conversation should be had with that *group* from the
>>>>> get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the
building
>>>>> with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take
place
>>>>> *only* on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other
>>>>> sudoers (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a
lot of
>>>>> work - apparently, many people can only envision as a place for
garbage, or
>>>>> to get to utility panels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does
>>>>> not mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real
disadvantage here
>>>>> compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be
>>>>> understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and
>>>>> *time* to do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the
>>>>> building. I mean, Backspace has far more intense permitting and
structural
>>>>> issues to address - we're getting architectural drawings (I had
the
>>>>> architect over yesterday partly for this reason), and planning it
out
>>>>> thoughtfully - this is not going to happen in one week or even one
month.
>>>>> Also, Backspacers are a much smaller, newer group than Sudo, in
which
>>>>> almost everyone has day jobs and simply can't be there alla the
time - they
>>>>> are not on sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at least any
more
>>>>> than all of sudo should be on backspace's list.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a
>>>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers /
bodyworkers,
>>>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and
Sarah.
>>>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be
discussed
>>>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying
to any
>>>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal
>>>>> discussions about how articulate their model, including how best to
build
>>>>> out, refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if
you
>>>>> blow away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a
different use,
>>>>> you are also potentially actually talking about removing an
individual from
>>>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think
it
>>>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into
backspace in
>>>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there
that
>>>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I
mean
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also
>>>>> be had with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the
omnilogistics
>>>>> list), especially if you see the servers as serving the entire
building,
>>>>> not just sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too
-
>>>>> easily enough done, but the common use of these servers should be
>>>>> clarified.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am
>>>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a
>>>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine
sudo
>>>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on
things,
>>>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should
be in
>>>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for
permitting
>>>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The
electrical
>>>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never
entered
>>>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of
power and
>>>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning
re:
>>>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are
>>>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that,
and then
>>>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for
safety's sake
>>>>> if nothing else. My 2c.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <
>>>>> luis.murillo.plos(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some
errands/TCB
>>>>>> will swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody
<somebody(a)riseup.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh
list
>>>>>>> was not
>>>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700
>>>>>>> From: hol(a)gaskill.com
>>>>>>> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>>> CC: sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >the compressor for that could also provide cooling for
the
>>>>>>> servers.
>>>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative
hx
>>>>>>> are good
>>>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool
hot
>>>>>>> things may
>>>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh
cool
>>>>>>> air and
>>>>>>> letting convection do the work. if there's no objection,
we
>>>>>>> could set
>>>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can
run
>>>>>>> coax to a
>>>>>>> more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so
i'll
>>>>>>> be around
>>>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up
basic
>>>>>>> infrastructure
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > hey guys,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server
space! I
>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>> > wanna help.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The main issue with using this particular room is, as
you can
>>>>>>> see by
>>>>>>> > looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness
collective is
>>>>>>> > already paying rent on that particular area (NW
groundfloor
>>>>>>> > corner) and will be making their own changes to that
space.
>>>>>>> Backspace
>>>>>>> > is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and
Sarah.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an
>>>>>>> attraction for
>>>>>>> > that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of
fans plus
>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>> > certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes
up
>>>>>>> Backspace,
>>>>>>> > and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont
need
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>> > into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In general I would think, before using other
essentially
>>>>>>> non-shared
>>>>>>> > areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would
have to
>>>>>>> > actually rule out why building the room in other
locations,
>>>>>>> like Sudo
>>>>>>> > room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that
particular
>>>>>>> location
>>>>>>> > in someone else's area is really the only place it
could work.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for
going on
>>>>>>> 20 years
>>>>>>> > that would not be my first location in the entire
building for
>>>>>>> a lot
>>>>>>> > of reasons.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near
the
>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>> > electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near
the
>>>>>>> street.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > We could find a room in the basement. There is
excellent
>>>>>>> ventilation
>>>>>>> > to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the
>>>>>>> furnaces are in
>>>>>>> > the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into
that
>>>>>>> venting to
>>>>>>> > actually help heat the building, which could save on
energy.
>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>> > there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement -
the
>>>>>>> compressor
>>>>>>> > for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green
solution
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> > ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the
building.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > :)
>>>>>>> > d
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody
<somebody(a)riseup.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===
>>>>>>> > 2014/07/05:
>>>>>>> > Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building,
and so
>>>>>>> far the
>>>>>>> > only place that seems the
>>>>>>> > most appropriate to have the server room is the room by
the
>>>>>>> bar.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > This area is the most ideal in the whole building
because the
>>>>>>> air
>>>>>>> > flow,
>>>>>>> > temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it
is
>>>>>>> where the
>>>>>>> > Internet access enters the building.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom
space, we
>>>>>>> will have
>>>>>>> > to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group
and the
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> > approves it, then we would have to present the idea at
our
>>>>>>> > Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to
build:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood
would do, I
>>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>> > * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and
a door.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we
should
>>>>>>> > consider
>>>>>>> > building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High
>>>>>>> temperature and
>>>>>>> > noise levels are the main issues.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of
this
>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>> > please
>>>>>>> > jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself
(Daniel).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > This update and all other Network/Reboot project is
found at:
>>>>>>> >
https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > This update and all other Network/Reboot project is
found at:
>>>>>>> > https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Thx!
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>> mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>> mesh(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
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>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
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