27 May
2013
27 May
'13
4 p.m.
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman and Goku.
Specifically this is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero character
I see over and over again in Shonen action based Anime / Manga and how it
compares to mainstream American super heroes. Of course I don’t mean to say
there aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold, only that the
type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern mainstream media.
*Growth Mindset*
*For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are based
around a growth mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his hidden
potential.* Even if he is the chosen one of some kind or come from another
planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard work. Most American super
heroes were born with their powers or gained it all at once through some
happenstance beyond their control. They will usually go through an awkward
period of learning how their powers work, but it will be more about
discovery than training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the cultural
importance of martial arts in Japan and other Asian countries, as well as a
more strict work ethic. Most of the super powers imagined are centered
around martial arts and notion of building Chi. Many Anime have their own
names for this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit Force, just to
name a few. These forces are brought out through training and will power.
Characters are at their most powerful when put in desperate situations and
they are forced into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might
suggest that American superpowers are looked at like property, or even like
winning the lottery. Japanese powers are more like the inextricable essence
of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai referring to his sword as an
extension of his soul.
*Magic VS Science*
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life force
inside us all. That or at least the laws of the universe are different from
our own. For example, “Full Metal Alchemist” takes place in a world where
alchemy really works. American powers are way more often science related,
and rooted in our own universe, or at least a universe that is very similar
to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based on unrealistically
huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps, since that’s the only way to go from
the ordinary world to something so amazing. Also the scientific
explanations are usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that
these Manga superheroes likely exist in an alternate world yet American
ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to me. I wonder if this means
that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism. Even if
American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed
to exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of
us ordinary people.
*Dynamic Power Ups*
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent isn’t
in and of itself isn’t unique, but some Japanese characters take this to a
whole new level. Some even quantify their power ups by calling them gears
or levels. The prime example is Dragon Ball Z. The idea that you can turn
these various states of power at will like shifting gears on a car isn’t
something I can ever remember seeing in an American character, with the
exception of when a character somehow borrows or steals another characters
powers for a particular fight.
*Intuition*
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the right
thing when it matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate intuition.
As in the way of the Samurai, all decisions are made in the space of seven
breaths, or much less. Because of this their decisions sometimes seem rash
to those around them, though over time people grow to have faith in them.
American heroes will often struggle with the right thing to do. Also, the
main hero in Manga always seems to have simple powers, simple attacks,
compared to the other characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use
them in a clever way, it is much more likely for the villain to have
complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s somehow related to honor, that
simple powers befit an honest hero.
*Care Free Attitude*
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend not to
spend a lot of time worrying, and may even seem careless. They have been
know to randomly fall asleep at inopportune moments, and accidentally say
the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an innocence about them. After
all they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be related with the
way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate importance lightly and small
matters with the utmost seriousness.
*Strength From Friendship*
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented loners,
forbidden from personal relationships. Often their friends and family have
lesser powers themselves. They focus very heavily on being able to protect
their loved ones, but often have faith in them to take care of themselves.
American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate weight on
their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime / Manga characters
usually seem to treasure their strength, their ability to protect people.
For them, the ones they love ARE their strength, instead of their weakness.
They often reach a new level of power up through the rage of a loved one
being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is surrounded by ordinary
humans. They are infinitely more capable than everyone around them, so they
are infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if
the American mindset is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far
greater power than anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by other
super powered people. They don’t start at the top. There are always more
powerful people who drive them to advance and become the best.
*Enormous Appetite*
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga heroes
seem to be able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they need the
energy to fuel all those power ups. The most extreme examples of this are
Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently Toriko, which is largely based
around eating.
*Purity
*This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be very
pure hearted and noble even if they seem brash on the outside. Plenty of
American Supers are noble, but there seems to be slight distinction in my
mind. American heroes are either totally super noble like Superman or
Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw that they must
overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their Japanese counterparts flaws
aren’t usually flaws at all. They don’t get in the way of them being a
hero, they are part of their personality and may actually make them better
at what they do. They don’t seem to be in conflict with themselves. Their
apparent character flaws are a product of their innocence instead of their
corruption or weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their
relatively young age.**
I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt compelled
to TRY and quantify it, only that I think it is interesting to see the
kinds of fictional characters that our very different cultures idolize. I
enjoy superheroes on both sides of this analysis, but I find that they
access different feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype is a more
joyful and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish
fulfillment, with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown in.**
*Update:* Just responding to some comments on
reddit<http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/pnps8/japanese_vs_american…
there should be more specific American comics references. I admit it
is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of figured if you’re reading
this in English you probably know more than you care too already about
popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood movies of late. Maybe
that was a mistake. This wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some
observations I made that were interesting to me. I do have more interest in
Anime in recent years, but I’m definitely not trying to convince anyone of
anything. I don’t have an agenda, I don’t think. I’m not trying to bend
facts to suite an argument, however I will fully concede to the possibility
that I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply
in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In
the end I’m just surprised people actually wanted more information on this.
I always assume people will find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism
taken.
*Update 2:* Okay, I don’t think I have the patience to expand this into a
full essay with citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor
phrases to be a BIT more specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a
word. So I will just list below the particular hero characters I was
referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe that will clear
this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make applies entirely to each
character, but hopefully they hold generally true. Generalizations
definitely aren’t the only thing important in an analysis, but at least
initially, they can be the only way to see a pattern. Of course I know they
can also be used for evil. With great generalization come great
responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this ever again.
* Japan*
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece
Natsu – Fairy Tail
Gon – HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an
alternate world with different rules. Not as many similarities to the
others.
*USA*
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
27 May
27 May
6:13 p.m.
I want to say luck does come in part with being a superhero, both Japanese or American.
If you look at Goku or my childhood favorite, the Monkey King, they were already deities
who learn to harness their power rather than purely hardworking.
I see the character growth more apart of the "path/journey" in life motif found
less in western comics.
I do agree with some of your pound though Romy, like the power-up found less in American
super heroes.
Sent from my iPhone
Louis T. Huang
http://aegia.nu/
+202.445.7258
louis.huang(a)aegia.nu
On May 27, 2013, at 4:00 PM, "Romy Ilano" <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman and Goku. Specifically this
is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero character I see over and over again in
Shonen action based Anime / Manga and how it compares to mainstream American super heroes.
Of course I don’t mean to say there aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold,
only that the type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern mainstream media.
Growth Mindset
For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are based around a growth
mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his hidden potential. Even if he is the chosen
one of some kind or come from another planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard
work. Most American super heroes were born with their powers or gained it all at once
through some happenstance beyond their control. They will usually go through an awkward
period of learning how their powers work, but it will be more about discovery than
training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the cultural importance of
martial arts in Japan and other Asian countries, as well as a more strict work ethic. Most
of the super powers imagined are centered around martial arts and notion of building Chi.
Many Anime have their own names for this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit
Force, just to name a few. These forces are brought out through training and will power.
Characters are at their most powerful when put in desperate situations and they are forced
into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might suggest that American
superpowers are looked at like property, or even like winning the lottery. Japanese powers
are more like the inextricable essence of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai referring
to his sword as an extension of his soul.
Magic VS Science
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life force inside us all.
That or at least the laws of the universe are different from our own. For example, “Full
Metal Alchemist” takes place in a world where alchemy really works. American powers are
way more often science related, and rooted in our own universe, or at least a universe
that is very similar to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based on
unrealistically huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps, since that’s the only way to go
from the ordinary world to something so amazing. Also the scientific explanations are
usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that these Manga superheroes likely
exist in an alternate world yet American ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to
me. I wonder if this means that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism.
Even if American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed to
exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of us ordinary
people.
Dynamic Power Ups
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent isn’t in and of
itself isn’t unique, but some Japanese characters take this to a whole new level. Some
even quantify their power ups by calling them gears or levels. The prime example is Dragon
Ball Z. The idea that you can turn these various states of power at will like shifting
gears on a car isn’t something I can ever remember seeing in an American character, with
the exception of when a character somehow borrows or steals another characters powers for
a particular fight.
Intuition
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the right thing when it
matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate intuition. As in the way of the Samurai,
all decisions are made in the space of seven breaths, or much less. Because of this their
decisions sometimes seem rash to those around them, though over time people grow to have
faith in them. American heroes will often struggle with the right thing to do. Also, the
main hero in Manga always seems to have simple powers, simple attacks, compared to the
other characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use them in a clever way, it is
much more likely for the villain to have complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s
somehow related to honor, that simple powers befit an honest hero.
Care Free Attitude
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend not to spend a lot of
time worrying, and may even seem careless. They have been know to randomly fall asleep at
inopportune moments, and accidentally say the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an
innocence about them. After all they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be
related with the way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate importance lightly and
small matters with the utmost seriousness.
Strength From Friendship
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented loners, forbidden from
personal relationships. Often their friends and family have lesser powers themselves. They
focus very heavily on being able to protect their loved ones, but often have faith in them
to take care of themselves. American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate
weight on their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime / Manga characters usually
seem to treasure their strength, their ability to protect people. For them, the ones they
love ARE their strength, instead of their weakness. They often reach a new level of power
up through the rage of a loved one being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is
surrounded by ordinary humans. They are infinitely more capable than everyone around them,
so they are infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if the
American mindset is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far greater power than
anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by other super powered people. They don’t
start at the top. There are always more powerful people who drive them to advance and
become the best.
Enormous Appetite
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga heroes seem to be
able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they need the energy to fuel all those power
ups. The most extreme examples of this are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently
Toriko, which is largely based around eating.
Purity
This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be very pure hearted
and noble even if they seem brash on the outside. Plenty of American Supers are noble, but
there seems to be slight distinction in my mind. American heroes are either totally super
noble like Superman or Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw that they
must overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their Japanese counterparts flaws aren’t usually
flaws at all. They don’t get in the way of them being a hero, they are part of their
personality and may actually make them better at what they do. They don’t seem to be in
conflict with themselves. Their apparent character flaws are a product of their innocence
instead of their corruption or weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their
relatively young age.
I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt compelled to TRY and
quantify it, only that I think it is interesting to see the kinds of fictional characters
that our very different cultures idolize. I enjoy superheroes on both sides of this
analysis, but I find that they access different feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype
is a more joyful and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish fulfillment,
with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown in.
Update: Just responding to some comments on reddit that there should be more specific
American comics references. I admit it is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of
figured if you’re reading this in English you probably know more than you care too already
about popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood movies of late. Maybe that was
a mistake. This wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some observations I made
that were interesting to me. I do have more interest in Anime in recent years, but I’m
definitely not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don’t have an agenda, I don’t
think. I’m not trying to bend facts to suite an argument, however I will fully concede to
the possibility that I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply
in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In the end I’m just
surprised people actually wanted more information on this. I always assume people will
find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism taken.
Update 2: Okay, I don’t think I have the patience to expand this into a full essay with
citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor phrases to be a BIT more
specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a word. So I will just list below the
particular hero characters I was referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe
that will clear this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make applies entirely to each
character, but hopefully they hold generally true. Generalizations definitely aren’t the
only thing important in an analysis, but at least initially, they can be the only way to
see a pattern. Of course I know they can also be used for evil. With great generalization
come great responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this ever again.
Japan
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece
Natsu – Fairy Tail
Gon – HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an alternate world with
different rules. Not as many similarities to the others.
USA
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
6:17 p.m.
I want to say luck does come in part with being a superhero, both Japanese or American.
If you look at Goku or my childhood favorite, the Monkey King, they were already deities
who learn to harness their power rather than purely hardworking..
I see the character growth more apart of the "path/journey" in life motif found
less in US comics.
I do agree with some of the points though, like the power-up found less in American super
heroes.
Sent from my iPhone
Louis T. Huang
http://aegia.nu/
+202.445.7258
louis.huang(a)aegia.nu
On May 27, 2013, at 4:00 PM, Romy Ilano <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman and Goku. Specifically this
is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero character I see over and over again in
Shonen action based Anime / Manga and how it compares to mainstream American super heroes.
Of course I don’t mean to say there aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold,
only that the type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern mainstream media.
Growth Mindset
For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are based around a growth
mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his hidden potential. Even if he is the chosen
one of some kind or come from another planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard
work. Most American super heroes were born with their powers or gained it all at once
through some happenstance beyond their control. They will usually go through an awkward
period of learning how their powers work, but it will be more about discovery than
training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the cultural importance of
martial arts in Japan and other Asian countries, as well as a more strict work ethic. Most
of the super powers imagined are centered around martial arts and notion of building Chi.
Many Anime have their own names for this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit
Force, just to name a few. These forces are brought out through training and will power.
Characters are at their most powerful when put in desperate situations and they are forced
into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might suggest that American
superpowers are looked at like property, or even like winning the lottery. Japanese powers
are more like the inextricable essence of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai referring
to his sword as an extension of his soul.
Magic VS Science
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life force inside us all.
That or at least the laws of the universe are different from our own. For example, “Full
Metal Alchemist” takes place in a world where alchemy really works. American powers are
way more often science related, and rooted in our own universe, or at least a universe
that is very similar to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based on
unrealistically huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps, since that’s the only way to go
from the ordinary world to something so amazing. Also the scientific explanations are
usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that these Manga superheroes likely
exist in an alternate world yet American ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to
me. I wonder if this means that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism.
Even if American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed to
exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of us ordinary
people.
Dynamic Power Ups
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent isn’t in and of
itself isn’t unique, but some Japanese characters take this to a whole new level. Some
even quantify their power ups by calling them gears or levels. The prime example is Dragon
Ball Z. The idea that you can turn these various states of power at will like shifting
gears on a car isn’t something I can ever remember seeing in an American character, with
the exception of when a character somehow borrows or steals another characters powers for
a particular fight.
Intuition
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the right thing when it
matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate intuition. As in the way of the Samurai,
all decisions are made in the space of seven breaths, or much less. Because of this their
decisions sometimes seem rash to those around them, though over time people grow to have
faith in them. American heroes will often struggle with the right thing to do. Also, the
main hero in Manga always seems to have simple powers, simple attacks, compared to the
other characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use them in a clever way, it is
much more likely for the villain to have complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s
somehow related to honor, that simple powers befit an honest hero.
Care Free Attitude
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend not to spend a lot of
time worrying, and may even seem careless. They have been know to randomly fall asleep at
inopportune moments, and accidentally say the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an
innocence about them. After all they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be
related with the way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate importance lightly and
small matters with the utmost seriousness.
Strength From Friendship
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented loners, forbidden from
personal relationships. Often their friends and family have lesser powers themselves. They
focus very heavily on being able to protect their loved ones, but often have faith in them
to take care of themselves. American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate
weight on their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime / Manga characters usually
seem to treasure their strength, their ability to protect people. For them, the ones they
love ARE their strength, instead of their weakness. They often reach a new level of power
up through the rage of a loved one being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is
surrounded by ordinary humans. They are infinitely more capable than everyone around them,
so they are infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if the
American mindset is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far greater power than
anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by other super powered people. They don’t
start at the top. There are always more powerful people who drive them to advance and
become the best.
Enormous Appetite
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga heroes seem to be
able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they need the energy to fuel all those power
ups. The most extreme examples of this are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently
Toriko, which is largely based around eating.
Purity
This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be very pure hearted
and noble even if they seem brash on the outside. Plenty of American Supers are noble, but
there seems to be slight distinction in my mind. American heroes are either totally super
noble like Superman or Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw that they
must overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their Japanese counterparts flaws aren’t usually
flaws at all. They don’t get in the way of them being a hero, they are part of their
personality and may actually make them better at what they do. They don’t seem to be in
conflict with themselves. Their apparent character flaws are a product of their innocence
instead of their corruption or weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their
relatively young age.
I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt compelled to TRY and
quantify it, only that I think it is interesting to see the kinds of fictional characters
that our very different cultures idolize. I enjoy superheroes on both sides of this
analysis, but I find that they access different feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype
is a more joyful and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish fulfillment,
with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown in.
Update: Just responding to some comments on reddit that there should be more specific
American comics references. I admit it is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of
figured if you’re reading this in English you probably know more than you care too already
about popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood movies of late. Maybe that was
a mistake. This wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some observations I made
that were interesting to me. I do have more interest in Anime in recent years, but I’m
definitely not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don’t have an agenda, I don’t
think. I’m not trying to bend facts to suite an argument, however I will fully concede to
the possibility that I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply
in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In the end I’m just
surprised people actually wanted more information on this. I always assume people will
find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism taken.
Update 2: Okay, I don’t think I have the patience to expand this into a full essay with
citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor phrases to be a BIT more
specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a word. So I will just list below the
particular hero characters I was referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe
that will clear this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make applies entirely to each
character, but hopefully they hold generally true. Generalizations definitely aren’t the
only thing important in an analysis, but at least initially, they can be the only way to
see a pattern. Of course I know they can also be used for evil. With great generalization
come great responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this ever again.
Japan
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece
Natsu – Fairy Tail
Gon – HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an alternate world with
different rules. Not as many similarities to the others.
USA
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
6:55 p.m.
thanks Louis! those are great points.
I was talking to another friend who lived in japan and studied japanese
culture--there also tend to be more Japanese comics and movies focused on
heroes who do weirdly everyday things: the ramen hero who starts out
mediocre then works hard and opens his own ramen shop, or the hero who
saves her small town from disasters but is just an everyday person.
my japanese culture knowledge is a bit rusty but i find these ideas so
beautiful.
The great japanese heroic woodblock artist Hokusai worked until the day he
died, and he said in his 60 and his 70s that he stil felt like he was "just
beginning" to make his art
I as also thinking about the movie jiro dreams of sushi, which to me as
ultimately heroic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi
http://sebastianmarshall.com/a-realization-about-japanese-and-american-supe…
On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Louis Huang <louis.huang(a)aegia.nu> wrote:
I want to say luck does come in part with being a
superhero, both Japanese
or American.
If you look at Goku or my childhood favorite, the Monkey King, they were
already deities who learn to harness their power rather than purely
hardworking.
I see the character growth more apart of the "path/journey" in life motif
found less in US comics.
I do agree with some of the points though, like the power-up found less in
American super heroes.
Sent from my iPhone
Louis T. Huang
http://aegia.nu/
+202.445.7258
louis.huang(a)aegia.nu
On May 27, 2013, at 4:00 PM, Romy Ilano <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman and Goku.
Specifically this is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero character
I see over and over again in Shonen action based Anime / Manga and how it
compares to mainstream American super heroes. Of course I don’t mean to say
there aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold, only that the
type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern mainstream media.
*Growth Mindset*
*For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are based
around a growth mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his hidden
potential.* Even if he is the chosen one of some kind or come from
another planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard work. Most American
super heroes were born with their powers or gained it all at once through
some happenstance beyond their control. They will usually go through an
awkward period of learning how their powers work, but it will be more about
discovery than training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the cultural
importance of martial arts in Japan and other Asian countries, as well as a
more strict work ethic. Most of the super powers imagined are centered
around martial arts and notion of building Chi. Many Anime have their own
names for this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit Force, just to
name a few. These forces are brought out through training and will power.
Characters are at their most powerful when put in desperate situations and
they are forced into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might
suggest that American superpowers are looked at like property, or even like
winning the lottery. Japanese powers are more like the inextricable essence
of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai referring to his sword as an
extension of his soul.
*Magic VS Science*
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life force
inside us all. That or at least the laws of the universe are different from
our own. For example, “Full Metal Alchemist” takes place in a world where
alchemy really works. American powers are way more often science related,
and rooted in our own universe, or at least a universe that is very similar
to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based on unrealistically
huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps, since that’s the only way to go from
the ordinary world to something so amazing. Also the scientific
explanations are usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that
these Manga superheroes likely exist in an alternate world yet American
ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to me. I wonder if this means
that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism. Even if
American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed
to exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of
us ordinary people.
*Dynamic Power Ups*
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent isn’t
in and of itself isn’t unique, but some Japanese characters take this to a
whole new level. Some even quantify their power ups by calling them gears
or levels. The prime example is Dragon Ball Z. The idea that you can turn
these various states of power at will like shifting gears on a car isn’t
something I can ever remember seeing in an American character, with the
exception of when a character somehow borrows or steals another characters
powers for a particular fight.
*Intuition*
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the right
thing when it matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate intuition.
As in the way of the Samurai, all decisions are made in the space of seven
breaths, or much less. Because of this their decisions sometimes seem rash
to those around them, though over time people grow to have faith in them.
American heroes will often struggle with the right thing to do. Also, the
main hero in Manga always seems to have simple powers, simple attacks,
compared to the other characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use
them in a clever way, it is much more likely for the villain to have
complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s somehow related to honor, that
simple powers befit an honest hero.
*Care Free Attitude*
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend not to
spend a lot of time worrying, and may even seem careless. They have been
know to randomly fall asleep at inopportune moments, and accidentally say
the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an innocence about them. After
all they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be related with the
way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate importance lightly and small
matters with the utmost seriousness.
*Strength From Friendship*
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented loners,
forbidden from personal relationships. Often their friends and family have
lesser powers themselves. They focus very heavily on being able to protect
their loved ones, but often have faith in them to take care of themselves.
American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate weight on
their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime / Manga characters
usually seem to treasure their strength, their ability to protect people.
For them, the ones they love ARE their strength, instead of their weakness.
They often reach a new level of power up through the rage of a loved one
being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is surrounded by ordinary
humans. They are infinitely more capable than everyone around them, so they
are infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if
the American mindset is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far
greater power than anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by other
super powered people. They don’t start at the top. There are always more
powerful people who drive them to advance and become the best.
*Enormous Appetite*
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga
heroes seem to be able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they need
the energy to fuel all those power ups. The most extreme examples of this
are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently Toriko, which is largely
based around eating.
*Purity
*This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be
very pure hearted and noble even if they seem brash on the outside. Plenty
of American Supers are noble, but there seems to be slight distinction in
my mind. American heroes are either totally super noble like Superman or
Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw that they must
overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their Japanese counterparts flaws
aren’t usually flaws at all. They don’t get in the way of them being a
hero, they are part of their personality and may actually make them better
at what they do. They don’t seem to be in conflict with themselves. Their
apparent character flaws are a product of their innocence instead of their
corruption or weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their
relatively young age.**
I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt compelled
to TRY and quantify it, only that I think it is interesting to see the
kinds of fictional characters that our very different cultures idolize. I
enjoy superheroes on both sides of this analysis, but I find that they
access different feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype is a more
joyful and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish
fulfillment, with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown in.**
*Update:* Just responding to some comments on
reddit<http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/pnps8/japanese_vs_american…
there should be more specific American comics references. I admit it
is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of figured if you’re reading
this in English you probably know more than you care too already about
popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood movies of late. Maybe
that was a mistake. This wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some
observations I made that were interesting to me. I do have more interest in
Anime in recent years, but I’m definitely not trying to convince anyone of
anything. I don’t have an agenda, I don’t think. I’m not trying to bend
facts to suite an argument, however I will fully concede to the possibility
that I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply
in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In
the end I’m just surprised people actually wanted more information on this.
I always assume people will find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism
taken.
*Update 2:* Okay, I don’t think I have the patience to expand this into a
full essay with citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor
phrases to be a BIT more specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a
word. So I will just list below the particular hero characters I was
referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe that will clear
this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make applies entirely to each
character, but hopefully they hold generally true. Generalizations
definitely aren’t the only thing important in an analysis, but at least
initially, they can be the only way to see a pattern. Of course I know they
can also be used for evil. With great generalization come great
responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this ever again.
* Japan*
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece
Natsu – Fairy Tail
Gon – HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an
alternate world with different rules. Not as many similarities to the
others.
*USA*
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
6:57 p.m.
also i think that many japanese comics that exist have more moral
ambiguity. Have you read Tezuka's Phoenix series? Characters go from being
good guys to evil villages and the evil villains in the begnnings become
heroes in the end. It's very weird.
American comic books, much like american mentality tend to see the world in
a good versus evil black and white kind of way. allies versus axis powers.
us versus them. fascists versus democracy.
On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Louis Huang <louis.huang(a)aegia.nu> wrote:
I want to say luck does come in part with being a
superhero, both Japanese
or American.
If you look at Goku or my childhood favorite, the Monkey King, they were
already deities who learn to harness their power rather than purely
hardworking.
I see the character growth more apart of the "path/journey" in life motif
found less in US comics.
I do agree with some of the points though, like the power-up found less in
American super heroes.
Sent from my iPhone
Louis T. Huang
http://aegia.nu/
+202.445.7258
louis.huang(a)aegia.nu
On May 27, 2013, at 4:00 PM, Romy Ilano <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman and Goku.
Specifically this is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero character
I see over and over again in Shonen action based Anime / Manga and how it
compares to mainstream American super heroes. Of course I don’t mean to say
there aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold, only that the
type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern mainstream media.
*Growth Mindset*
*For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are based
around a growth mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his hidden
potential.* Even if he is the chosen one of some kind or come from
another planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard work. Most American
super heroes were born with their powers or gained it all at once through
some happenstance beyond their control. They will usually go through an
awkward period of learning how their powers work, but it will be more about
discovery than training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the cultural
importance of martial arts in Japan and other Asian countries, as well as a
more strict work ethic. Most of the super powers imagined are centered
around martial arts and notion of building Chi. Many Anime have their own
names for this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit Force, just to
name a few. These forces are brought out through training and will power.
Characters are at their most powerful when put in desperate situations and
they are forced into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might
suggest that American superpowers are looked at like property, or even like
winning the lottery. Japanese powers are more like the inextricable essence
of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai referring to his sword as an
extension of his soul.
*Magic VS Science*
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life force
inside us all. That or at least the laws of the universe are different from
our own. For example, “Full Metal Alchemist” takes place in a world where
alchemy really works. American powers are way more often science related,
and rooted in our own universe, or at least a universe that is very similar
to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based on unrealistically
huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps, since that’s the only way to go from
the ordinary world to something so amazing. Also the scientific
explanations are usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that
these Manga superheroes likely exist in an alternate world yet American
ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to me. I wonder if this means
that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism. Even if
American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed
to exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of
us ordinary people.
*Dynamic Power Ups*
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent isn’t
in and of itself isn’t unique, but some Japanese characters take this to a
whole new level. Some even quantify their power ups by calling them gears
or levels. The prime example is Dragon Ball Z. The idea that you can turn
these various states of power at will like shifting gears on a car isn’t
something I can ever remember seeing in an American character, with the
exception of when a character somehow borrows or steals another characters
powers for a particular fight.
*Intuition*
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the right
thing when it matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate intuition.
As in the way of the Samurai, all decisions are made in the space of seven
breaths, or much less. Because of this their decisions sometimes seem rash
to those around them, though over time people grow to have faith in them.
American heroes will often struggle with the right thing to do. Also, the
main hero in Manga always seems to have simple powers, simple attacks,
compared to the other characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use
them in a clever way, it is much more likely for the villain to have
complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s somehow related to honor, that
simple powers befit an honest hero.
*Care Free Attitude*
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend not to
spend a lot of time worrying, and may even seem careless. They have been
know to randomly fall asleep at inopportune moments, and accidentally say
the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an innocence about them. After
all they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be related with the
way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate importance lightly and small
matters with the utmost seriousness.
*Strength From Friendship*
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented loners,
forbidden from personal relationships. Often their friends and family have
lesser powers themselves. They focus very heavily on being able to protect
their loved ones, but often have faith in them to take care of themselves.
American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate weight on
their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime / Manga characters
usually seem to treasure their strength, their ability to protect people.
For them, the ones they love ARE their strength, instead of their weakness.
They often reach a new level of power up through the rage of a loved one
being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is surrounded by ordinary
humans. They are infinitely more capable than everyone around them, so they
are infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if
the American mindset is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far
greater power than anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by other
super powered people. They don’t start at the top. There are always more
powerful people who drive them to advance and become the best.
*Enormous Appetite*
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga
heroes seem to be able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they need
the energy to fuel all those power ups. The most extreme examples of this
are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently Toriko, which is largely
based around eating.
*Purity
*This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be
very pure hearted and noble even if they seem brash on the outside. Plenty
of American Supers are noble, but there seems to be slight distinction in
my mind. American heroes are either totally super noble like Superman or
Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw that they must
overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their Japanese counterparts flaws
aren’t usually flaws at all. They don’t get in the way of them being a
hero, they are part of their personality and may actually make them better
at what they do. They don’t seem to be in conflict with themselves. Their
apparent character flaws are a product of their innocence instead of their
corruption or weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their
relatively young age.**
I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt compelled
to TRY and quantify it, only that I think it is interesting to see the
kinds of fictional characters that our very different cultures idolize. I
enjoy superheroes on both sides of this analysis, but I find that they
access different feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype is a more
joyful and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish
fulfillment, with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown in.**
*Update:* Just responding to some comments on
reddit<http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/pnps8/japanese_vs_american…
there should be more specific American comics references. I admit it
is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of figured if you’re reading
this in English you probably know more than you care too already about
popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood movies of late. Maybe
that was a mistake. This wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some
observations I made that were interesting to me. I do have more interest in
Anime in recent years, but I’m definitely not trying to convince anyone of
anything. I don’t have an agenda, I don’t think. I’m not trying to bend
facts to suite an argument, however I will fully concede to the possibility
that I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply
in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In
the end I’m just surprised people actually wanted more information on this.
I always assume people will find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism
taken.
*Update 2:* Okay, I don’t think I have the patience to expand this into a
full essay with citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor
phrases to be a BIT more specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a
word. So I will just list below the particular hero characters I was
referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe that will clear
this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make applies entirely to each
character, but hopefully they hold generally true. Generalizations
definitely aren’t the only thing important in an analysis, but at least
initially, they can be the only way to see a pattern. Of course I know they
can also be used for evil. With great generalization come great
responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this ever again.
* Japan*
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece
Natsu – Fairy Tail
Gon – HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an
alternate world with different rules. Not as many similarities to the
others.
*USA*
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
8:31 p.m.
I do agree Japanese mangas have gone through a complex development that has gone into the
mainstream for Japanese, therefore give a wide range of ideas then the American comic
world.
Black and white mentality is not specific to one group especially when nationalism is
brought into the subject.
Sent from my iPhone
Louis T. Huang
http://aegia.nu/
+202.445.7258
louis.huang(a)aegia.nu
On May 27, 2013, at 6:57 PM, Romy Ilano <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
also i think that many japanese comics that exist have
more moral ambiguity. Have you read Tezuka's Phoenix series? Characters go from being
good guys to evil villages and the evil villains in the begnnings become heroes in the
end. It's very weird.
American comic books, much like american mentality tend to see the world in a good versus
evil black and white kind of way. allies versus axis powers. us versus them. fascists
versus democracy.
On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Louis Huang <louis.huang(a)aegia.nu> wrote:
I want to say luck does come in part with being a
superhero, both Japanese or American.
If you look at Goku or my childhood favorite, the Monkey King, they were already deities
who learn to harness their power rather than purely hardworking.
I see the character growth more apart of the "path/journey" in life motif found
less in US comics.
I do agree with some of the points though, like the power-up found less in American super
heroes.
Sent from my iPhone
Louis T. Huang
http://aegia.nu/
+202.445.7258
louis.huang(a)aegia.nu
On May 27, 2013, at 4:00 PM, Romy Ilano <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman and Goku. Specifically this
is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero character I see over and over again in
Shonen action based Anime / Manga and how it compares to mainstream American super heroes.
Of course I don’t mean to say there aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold,
only that the type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern mainstream media.
Growth Mindset
For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are based around a growth
mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his hidden potential. Even if he is the chosen
one of some kind or come from another planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard
work. Most American super heroes were born with their powers or gained it all at once
through some happenstance beyond their control. They will usually go through an awkward
period of learning how their powers work, but it will be more about discovery than
training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the cultural importance of
martial arts in Japan and other Asian countries, as well as a more strict work ethic. Most
of the super powers imagined are centered around martial arts and notion of building Chi.
Many Anime have their own names for this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit
Force, just to name a few. These forces are brought out through training and will power.
Characters are at their most powerful when put in desperate situations and they are forced
into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might suggest that American
superpowers are looked at like property, or even like winning the lottery. Japanese powers
are more like the inextricable essence of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai referring
to his sword as an extension of his soul.
Magic VS Science
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life force inside us all.
That or at least the laws of the universe are different from our own. For example, “Full
Metal Alchemist” takes place in a world where alchemy really works. American powers are
way more often science related, and rooted in our own universe, or at least a universe
that is very similar to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based on
unrealistically huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps, since that’s the only way to go
from the ordinary world to something so amazing. Also the scientific explanations are
usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that these Manga superheroes likely
exist in an alternate world yet American ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to
me. I wonder if this means that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism.
Even if American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed to
exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of us ordinary
people.
Dynamic Power Ups
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent isn’t in and of
itself isn’t unique, but some Japanese characters take this to a whole new level. Some
even quantify their power ups by calling them gears or levels. The prime example is Dragon
Ball Z. The idea that you can turn these various states of power at will like shifting
gears on a car isn’t something I can ever remember seeing in an American character, with
the exception of when a character somehow borrows or steals another characters powers for
a particular fight.
Intuition
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the right thing when it
matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate intuition. As in the way of the Samurai,
all decisions are made in the space of seven breaths, or much less. Because of this their
decisions sometimes seem rash to those around them, though over time people grow to have
faith in them. American heroes will often struggle with the right thing to do. Also, the
main hero in Manga always seems to have simple powers, simple attacks, compared to the
other characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use them in a clever way, it is
much more likely for the villain to have complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s
somehow related to honor, that simple powers befit an honest hero.
Care Free Attitude
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend not to spend a lot of
time worrying, and may even seem careless. They have been know to randomly fall asleep at
inopportune moments, and accidentally say the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an
innocence about them. After all they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be
related with the way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate importance lightly and
small matters with the utmost seriousness.
Strength From Friendship
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented loners, forbidden from
personal relationships. Often their friends and family have lesser powers themselves. They
focus very heavily on being able to protect their loved ones, but often have faith in them
to take care of themselves. American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate
weight on their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime / Manga characters usually
seem to treasure their strength, their ability to protect people. For them, the ones they
love ARE their strength, instead of their weakness. They often reach a new level of power
up through the rage of a loved one being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is
surrounded by ordinary humans. They are infinitely more capable than everyone around them,
so they are infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if the
American mindset is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far greater power than
anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by other super powered people. They don’t
start at the top. There are always more powerful people who drive them to advance and
become the best.
Enormous Appetite
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga heroes seem to be
able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they need the energy to fuel all those power
ups. The most extreme examples of this are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently
Toriko, which is largely based around eating.
Purity
This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be very pure hearted
and noble even if they seem brash on the outside. Plenty of American Supers are noble, but
there seems to be slight distinction in my mind. American heroes are either totally super
noble like Superman or Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw that they
must overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their Japanese counterparts flaws aren’t usually
flaws at all. They don’t get in the way of them being a hero, they are part of their
personality and may actually make them better at what they do. They don’t seem to be in
conflict with themselves. Their apparent character flaws are a product of their innocence
instead of their corruption or weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their
relatively young age.
I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt compelled to TRY and
quantify it, only that I think it is interesting to see the kinds of fictional characters
that our very different cultures idolize. I enjoy superheroes on both sides of this
analysis, but I find that they access different feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype
is a more joyful and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish
fulfillment, with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown in.
Update: Just responding to some comments on reddit that there should be more specific
American comics references. I admit it is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of
figured if you’re reading this in English you probably know more than you care too already
about popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood movies of late. Maybe that was
a mistake. This wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some observations I made
that were interesting to me. I do have more interest in Anime in recent years, but I’m
definitely not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don’t have an agenda, I don’t
think. I’m not trying to bend facts to suite an argument, however I will fully concede to
the possibility that I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply
in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In the end I’m just
surprised people actually wanted more information on this. I always assume people will
find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism taken.
Update 2: Okay, I don’t think I have the patience to expand this into a full essay with
citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor phrases to be a BIT more
specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a word. So I will just list below the
particular hero characters I was referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe
that will clear this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make applies entirely to each
character, but hopefully they hold generally true. Generalizations definitely aren’t the
only thing important in an analysis, but at least initially, they can be the only way to
see a pattern. Of course I know they can also be used for evil. With great generalization
come great responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this ever again.
Japan
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece
Natsu – Fairy Tail
Gon – HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an alternate world with
different rules. Not as many similarities to the others.
USA
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
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29 May
29 May
9:34 a.m.
Romy! Great essay!
There are huge differences between Eastern and Western mindsets and
culture. Growing up in an American Chinese household where my parents were
much more 'traditionally' Chinese, and I their American son; well, it was
not the easiest to navigate that cross cultural current.
I'm running out the door right now but I wanted to write a short response
and point out an observation I had about Ringu vs. The Ring. It's really
interesting how a Japanese horror movie was translated for an American
audience. In Ringu Sadako's face is never shown whereas in The Ring, it's
shown at the end. Perhaps a small difference but helps to elucidate the
differences between cultural mindsets.
Ringu is based on a folktale and comes from a tradition of *Onriyō *or
vengeful spirits. Sadako is a supernatural force with the power to curse
the characters in the physical world. Japanese audiences accept this
narrative, but American audiences needed something more familiar. Curses
and the supernatural are fine for the atmosphere of a horror film but
modern American audiences like monsters in their films --- Freddie, Jason,
Leatherface, Chucky.
Showing Sadako's face at the end, relegated her to the monster genre of
horror films. The power of the Japanese version was the power of the
unseen. Audiences are not privy to the sight of Sadako's face because to
see it was to die. Yet in the American version, audiences are allowed a
final glimpse, yet escape unharmed; no need to follow the rules that doom
the characters in the film.
It seems that the triumph over curses and monsters is central to the
translation of Ringu to The Ring. The Japanese film is ok with vengeful
spirits and their curses (*shrug they exist and bad luck if you cross paths
with an Onriyo), but not so for the American film. it's not ok just to let
spirits wreck their curses on us; we must render them into monsters and
triumph over them.
ok, onward with my day, but I want to talk more indepth about Manga and
Comics. Go, Romy!
ray
my superpower is the ability to eat chaos and excrete order
On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Romy Ilano <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
also i think that many japanese comics that exist have
more moral
ambiguity. Have you read Tezuka's Phoenix series? Characters go from being
good guys to evil villages and the evil villains in the begnnings become
heroes in the end. It's very weird.
American comic books, much like american mentality tend to see the world
in a good versus evil black and white kind of way. allies versus axis
powers. us versus them. fascists versus democracy.
On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Louis Huang <louis.huang(a)aegia.nu> wrote:
I want to say luck does come in part with being a
superhero, both
Japanese or American.
If you look at Goku or my childhood favorite, the Monkey King, they were
already deities who learn to harness their power rather than purely
hardworking.
I see the character growth more apart of the "path/journey" in life motif
found less in US comics.
I do agree with some of the points though, like the power-up found less
in American super heroes.
Sent from my iPhone
Louis T. Huang
http://aegia.nu/
+202.445.7258
louis.huang(a)aegia.nu
On May 27, 2013, at 4:00 PM, Romy Ilano <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn’t about who would win in a fight between Superman and Goku.
Specifically this is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero character
I see over and over again in Shonen action based Anime / Manga and how it
compares to mainstream American super heroes. Of course I don’t mean to say
there aren’t characters on both sides that break the mold, only that the
type I describe seems interestingly prevalent in modern mainstream media.
*Growth Mindset*
*For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are based
around a growth mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his hidden
potential.* Even if he is the chosen one of some kind or come from
another planet, it doesn’t come for free, it takes hard work. Most American
super heroes were born with their powers or gained it all at once through
some happenstance beyond their control. They will usually go through an
awkward period of learning how their powers work, but it will be more about
discovery than training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the cultural
importance of martial arts in Japan and other Asian countries, as well as a
more strict work ethic. Most of the super powers imagined are centered
around martial arts and notion of building Chi. Many Anime have their own
names for this force. Chakara, Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit Force, just to
name a few. These forces are brought out through training and will power.
Characters are at their most powerful when put in desperate situations and
they are forced into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might
suggest that American superpowers are looked at like property, or even like
winning the lottery. Japanese powers are more like the inextricable essence
of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai referring to his sword as an
extension of his soul.
*Magic VS Science*
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life force
inside us all. That or at least the laws of the universe are different from
our own. For example, “Full Metal Alchemist” takes place in a world where
alchemy really works. American powers are way more often science related,
and rooted in our own universe, or at least a universe that is very similar
to our own. Unfortunately those powers are often based on unrealistically
huge breakthroughs and severe mishaps, since that’s the only way to go from
the ordinary world to something so amazing. Also the scientific
explanations are usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that
these Manga superheroes likely exist in an alternate world yet American
ones are grounded in this one, is interesting to me. I wonder if this means
that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism. Even if
American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is supposed
to exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from the notice of
us ordinary people.
*Dynamic Power Ups*
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent
isn’t in and of itself isn’t unique, but some Japanese characters take this
to a whole new level. Some even quantify their power ups by calling them
gears or levels. The prime example is Dragon Ball Z. The idea that you can
turn these various states of power at will like shifting gears on a car
isn’t something I can ever remember seeing in an American character, with
the exception of when a character somehow borrows or steals another
characters powers for a particular fight.
*Intuition*
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the right
thing when it matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate intuition.
As in the way of the Samurai, all decisions are made in the space of seven
breaths, or much less. Because of this their decisions sometimes seem rash
to those around them, though over time people grow to have faith in them.
American heroes will often struggle with the right thing to do. Also, the
main hero in Manga always seems to have simple powers, simple attacks,
compared to the other characters in that world anyway. He may sometimes use
them in a clever way, it is much more likely for the villain to have
complicated or tricky powers. I think it’s somehow related to honor, that
simple powers befit an honest hero.
*Care Free Attitude*
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend not
to spend a lot of time worrying, and may even seem careless. They have been
know to randomly fall asleep at inopportune moments, and accidentally say
the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an innocence about them. After
all they usually are teenagers. This quality may also be related with the
way of the Samurai, treating matters of grate importance lightly and small
matters with the utmost seriousness.
*Strength From Friendship*
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented loners,
forbidden from personal relationships. Often their friends and family have
lesser powers themselves. They focus very heavily on being able to protect
their loved ones, but often have faith in them to take care of themselves.
American superheroes always seem to be carrying around a grate weight on
their shoulders, like their power is burden. Anime / Manga characters
usually seem to treasure their strength, their ability to protect people.
For them, the ones they love ARE their strength, instead of their weakness.
They often reach a new level of power up through the rage of a loved one
being threatened or hurt. The American superhero is surrounded by ordinary
humans. They are infinitely more capable than everyone around them, so they
are infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if
the American mindset is that it’s only worth having power if it is far far
greater power than anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by other
super powered people. They don’t start at the top. There are always more
powerful people who drive them to advance and become the best.
*Enormous Appetite*
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga
heroes seem to be able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they need
the energy to fuel all those power ups. The most extreme examples of this
are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently Toriko, which is largely
based around eating.
*Purity
*This isn’t necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be
very pure hearted and noble even if they seem brash on the outside. Plenty
of American Supers are noble, but there seems to be slight distinction in
my mind. American heroes are either totally super noble like Superman or
Captain America, or they have some kind of character flaw that they must
overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their Japanese counterparts flaws
aren’t usually flaws at all. They don’t get in the way of them being a
hero, they are part of their personality and may actually make them better
at what they do. They don’t seem to be in conflict with themselves. Their
apparent character flaws are a product of their innocence instead of their
corruption or weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their
relatively young age.**
I can’t really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt compelled
to TRY and quantify it, only that I think it is interesting to see the
kinds of fictional characters that our very different cultures idolize. I
enjoy superheroes on both sides of this analysis, but I find that they
access different feelings. I think the Manga hero archetype is a more
joyful and passionate, where as the American one is more about wish
fulfillment, with a bit of “Careful what you wish for.” thrown in.**
*Update:* Just responding to some comments on
reddit<http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/pnps8/japanese_vs_american…
there should be more specific American comics references. I admit it
is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of figured if you’re reading
this in English you probably know more than you care too already about
popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood movies of late. Maybe
that was a mistake. This wasn’t supposed to be an unbiased essay, just some
observations I made that were interesting to me. I do have more interest in
Anime in recent years, but I’m definitely not trying to convince anyone of
anything. I don’t have an agenda, I don’t think. I’m not trying to bend
facts to suite an argument, however I will fully concede to the possibility
that I may be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply
in too narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In
the end I’m just surprised people actually wanted more information on this.
I always assume people will find these posts long winded. Anyway, criticism
taken.
*Update 2:* Okay, I don’t think I have the patience to expand this into
a full essay with citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a few minor
phrases to be a BIT more specific and disclaimatory, if that is even a
word. So I will just list below the particular hero characters I was
referencing between the lines. Apply what you know, maybe that will clear
this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make applies entirely to each
character, but hopefully they hold generally true. Generalizations
definitely aren’t the only thing important in an analysis, but at least
initially, they can be the only way to see a pattern. Of course I know they
can also be used for evil. With great generalization come great
responsibility. Now, I don’t want to think about this ever again.
* Japan*
Goku – DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy – One Piece
Natsu – Fairy Tail
Gon – HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers – Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an
alternate world with different rules. Not as many similarities to the
others.
*USA*
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
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7:25 a.m.
Romy & YOs-
Very interesting stuff.
Re. the magic vs. science element:
American superhero archetypes have plenty of "magic" going on, in the
sense that they can do things that appear to contradict physics, and the
explanations given are often minimal in the sense of "black boxes" e.g.
"came from another planet" or "was exposed to
chemicals/radiation/whatever."
What we don't often see (I'm can't think of a single one at the moment),
are instances where American superheroes' unique powers are overtly
claimed to be "magic" or "supernatural" (above or outside of nature).
This seems to be related to our culture's engagement with Abrahamic
religion, as follows:
1) Claims that unique powers were given by the Abrahamic deity (YHWH,
God, Allah):
= For persons whose beliefs were within the orthodox Abrahamic
traditions, such claims could be considered blasphemous. (In these
traditions, unique powers or direct access to the deity, were limited to
individuals specified in scriptures. Asserting that the deity would
confer special powers on others (with extremely limited exceptions e.g.
saints), is seen as imputing something to the deity that contradicts
scripture and thereby offends the deity.)
= For persons whose beliefs were otherwise (other religions,
agnosticism, atheism), such claims could be taken as unwelcome religious
proselytizing for Abrahamic beliefs.
2) Claims that unique powers were given by some other supernatural
source (such as other "spirit entities" or "spiritual forces" of
whatever kind, including by implication such as "vision quests" and so on):
= For persons whose beliefs were orthodox Abrahamic, such claims would
be considered heretical. (Only the Abrahamic deity and persons
specified in scripture can initiate miracles, all else is either
illusory, or belief in false gods, or satanic.)
= For persons whose beliefs were other (other religions, agnosticism,
atheism), such claims could be taken as a different type of unwelcome
religious proselytizing.
3) Either case has the potential for creating needless controversies and
losing audience.
In contrast, the use of approximately sciencey-sounding explanations,
doesn't run into the issues of deeply-held beliefs associated with
personal and tribal identity. Persons with relevant science background
may wince and even take offense ("that contradicts physics!"), but any
such objections are readily overcome by the fiction paradigm of
suspension of disbelief.
Japanese indigenous religions (as well as Buddhism, which was imported
into Japan) are more "flexible" about the boundaries between humans and
supernatural forces/entities, and less "exclusive" about the status of
specific persons, than the Abrahamic traditions.
I wouldn't conclude that manga is "a deeper form of escapism," only that
the "other-worldliness" aspect differs between individuals and cultures.
For example, the statements "become one with God," "achieve
enlightenment," and "upload your mind to a computer," are all
soteriological statements: they point toward some form of salvation,
transcendence, or eternal life. People who believe in any of those,
routinely assert that what they believe in is true and real, and the
other beliefs are untrue or illusory in some way.
Translated back to superhero fiction, what is "true and real" to members
of one culture, would appear to be "a deeper form of escapism" to
members of another culture, and similar variations exist between
individuals. This is analogous to the differences in personal
preferences between e.g. "fantasy," "soft science fiction," and
"hard
science fiction," each having a distinct audience with limited overlap
to the audiences for the others.
-G.
=====
On 13-05-27-Mon 4:00 PM, Romy Ilano wrote:
http://roboheart.com/2012/02/12/japanese-vs-american-hero-archetypes/
No this isn't about who would win in a fight between Superman and
Goku. Specifically this is about a particular mainstream Japanese hero
character I see over and over again in Shonen action based Anime /
Manga and how it compares to mainstream American super heroes. Of
course I don't mean to say there aren't characters on both sides that
break the mold, only that the type I describe seems interestingly
prevalent in modern mainstream media.
*Growth Mindset*
*For me, the biggest difference is that Japanese super powers are
based around a growth mindset. The hero must train hard to unlock his
hidden potential.* Even if he is the chosen one of some kind or come
from another planet, it doesn't come for free, it takes hard work.
Most American super heroes were born with their powers or gained it
all at once through some happenstance beyond their control. They will
usually go through an awkward period of learning how their powers
work, but it will be more about discovery than training.
The most obvious direct explanation for this difference is the
cultural importance of martial arts in Japan and other Asian
countries, as well as a more strict work ethic. Most of the super
powers imagined are centered around martial arts and notion of
building Chi. Many Anime have their own names for this force. Chakara,
Haki, Nen, Raetsu or Spirit Force, just to name a few. These forces
are brought out through training and will power. Characters are at
their most powerful when put in desperate situations and they are
forced into a fit of rage, protecting the ones they love. I might
suggest that American superpowers are looked at like property, or even
like winning the lottery. Japanese powers are more like the
inextricable essence of a person, perhaps not unlike a Samurai
referring to his sword as an extension of his soul.
*Magic VS Science*
Japanese powers seem more often based in magic, the powerful life
force inside us all. That or at least the laws of the universe are
different from our own. For example, "Full Metal Alchemist" takes
place in a world where alchemy really works. American powers are way
more often science related, and rooted in our own universe, or at
least a universe that is very similar to our own. Unfortunately those
powers are often based on unrealistically huge breakthroughs and
severe mishaps, since that's the only way to go from the ordinary
world to something so amazing. Also the scientific explanations are
usually so flimsy they may as well be magic. The fact that these Manga
superheroes likely exist in an alternate world yet American ones are
grounded in this one, is interesting to me. I wonder if this means
that Manga superpower stories are a deeper form of escapism. Even if
American heroes take part in a world unknown to us, it usually is
supposed to exist in parallel, somewhere under our noses, hidden from
the notice of us ordinary people.
*Dynamic Power Ups*
The ability to power up when they need to defeat a stronger opponent
isn't in and of itself isn't unique, but some Japanese characters take
this to a whole new level. Some even quantify their power ups by
calling them gears or levels. The prime example is Dragon Ball Z. The
idea that you can turn these various states of power at will like
shifting gears on a car isn't something I can ever remember seeing in
an American character, with the exception of when a character somehow
borrows or steals another characters powers for a particular fight.
*Intuition*
This Japanese hero is not very bright, but somehow always does the
right thing when it matters. They are ruled by powerful and accurate
intuition. As in the way of the Samurai, all decisions are made in the
space of seven breaths, or much less. Because of this their decisions
sometimes seem rash to those around them, though over time people grow
to have faith in them. American heroes will often struggle with the
right thing to do. Also, the main hero in Manga always seems to have
simple powers, simple attacks, compared to the other characters in
that world anyway. He may sometimes use them in a clever way, it is
much more likely for the villain to have complicated or tricky powers.
I think it's somehow related to honor, that simple powers befit an
honest hero.
*Care Free Attitude*
This is related to their intuition I think. These Manga heroes tend
not to spend a lot of time worrying, and may even seem careless. They
have been know to randomly fall asleep at inopportune moments, and
accidentally say the wrong thing at the wrong time. They have an
innocence about them. After all they usually are teenagers. This
quality may also be related with the way of the Samurai, treating
matters of grate importance lightly and small matters with the utmost
seriousness.
*Strength From Friendship*
Unlike a lot of American heroes, they are not usually tormented
loners, forbidden from personal relationships. Often their friends and
family have lesser powers themselves. They focus very heavily on being
able to protect their loved ones, but often have faith in them to take
care of themselves. American superheroes always seem to be carrying
around a grate weight on their shoulders, like their power is burden.
Anime / Manga characters usually seem to treasure their strength,
their ability to protect people. For them, the ones they love ARE
their strength, instead of their weakness. They often reach a new
level of power up through the rage of a loved one being threatened or
hurt. The American superhero is surrounded by ordinary humans. They
are infinitely more capable than everyone around them, so they are
infinitely more responsible and isolated. It also makes me wonder if
the American mindset is that it's only worth having power if it is far
far greater power than anyone else. The Japanese hero is surrounded by
other super powered people. They don't start at the top. There are
always more powerful people who drive them to advance and become the best.
*Enormous Appetite*
I really have no Idea about this one, but quite a few of these Manga
heroes seem to be able to eat an absurd amount of food. I guess they
need the energy to fuel all those power ups. The most extreme examples
of this are Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, and more recently Toriko, which
is largely based around eating.
*Purity
*This isn't necessarily a difference, but the Manga heroes seem to be
very pure hearted and noble even if they seem brash on the outside.
Plenty of American Supers are noble, but there seems to be slight
distinction in my mind. American heroes are either totally super noble
like Superman or Captain America, or they have some kind of character
flaw that they must overcome to rise to the heroes call. Their
Japanese counterparts flaws aren't usually flaws at all. They don't
get in the way of them being a hero, they are part of their
personality and may actually make them better at what they do. They
don't seem to be in conflict with themselves. Their apparent character
flaws are a product of their innocence instead of their corruption or
weakness. Again this may have a lot to do with their relatively young
age.**
I can't really say what this all adds up to, or even why I felt
compelled to TRY and quantify it, only that I think it is interesting
to see the kinds of fictional characters that our very different
cultures idolize. I enjoy superheroes on both sides of this analysis,
but I find that they access different feelings. I think the Manga hero
archetype is a more joyful and passionate, where as the American one
is more about wish fulfillment, with a bit of "Careful what you wish
for." thrown in.**
*Update:* Just responding to some comments on reddit
<http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/pnps8/japanese_vs_american_hero_archetypes/?sort=new>
that there should be more specific American comics references. I admit
it is a bit one sided in that regard, but I kind of figured if you're
reading this in English you probably know more than you care too
already about popular American superheroes from the many Hollywood
movies of late. Maybe that was a mistake. This wasn't supposed to be
an unbiased essay, just some observations I made that were interesting
to me. I do have more interest in Anime in recent years, but I'm
definitely not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't have an
agenda, I don't think. I'm not trying to bend facts to suite an
argument, however I will fully concede to the possibility that I may
be seeing patterns where there are none, or looking too deeply in too
narrow a spot. Humans are particularly good at this in general. In the
end I'm just surprised people actually wanted more information on
this. I always assume people will find these posts long winded.
Anyway, criticism taken.
*Update 2:* Okay, I don't think I have the patience to expand this
into a full essay with citations equally on both sides. I did adjust a
few minor phrases to be a BIT more specific and disclaimatory, if that
is even a word. So I will just list below the particular hero
characters I was referencing between the lines. Apply what you know,
maybe that will clear this up a little. Not every point I TRY to make
applies entirely to each character, but hopefully they hold generally
true. Generalizations definitely aren't the only thing important in an
analysis, but at least initially, they can be the only way to see a
pattern. Of course I know they can also be used for evil. With great
generalization come great responsibility. Now, I don't want to think
about this ever again.
* Japan*
Goku -- DBZ, obviously, really seems like the precursor to the next 5.
Monkey D Luffy -- One Piece
Natsu -- Fairy Tail
Gon -- HunterXHunter
Naruto, Shippudden or otherwise
Toriko
Elric Brothers -- Full Metal Alchemist, mainly just to exemplify an
alternate world with different rules. Not as many similarities to the
others.
*USA*
Superman
Spiderman
Ironman
Captain America
Thor
Green Lantern
Batman, probably the most growth mindset oriented of the group
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7 comments
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participants (5)
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GtwoG PublicOhOne -
Louis Huang -
Louis Huang -
Raymond Lai -
Romy Ilano