15 Apr
15 Apr
4:21 p.m.
I think one of the storage spaces at the end of the Bocce court ([4] and
[5] on my numbered floorplan) could be perfect for a BSL-2. Plenty for one
or two benches plus a fridge/freezer and some other equipment. Most people
doing BSL-2 work don't really need to be in the BSL-2 space for the entire
time anyway. I've seen academic and commercial labs where all the BSL-2
work was essentially relegated to a small windowless room as well.
Building an extra floor is a huge hurdle, and would presumably require
building permits etc.
Patrik
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:03 PM, ahnon <ahnon(a)ahnon.org> wrote:
Re: space
We need to talk about this in our own meetings and then bring it to the
Omni meeting. Maybe we should have a collaborative meeting with SR to
discuss the project as well. I'm not convinced online is the best place for
this discussion.
Matt - thanks for the perspective on hacker/biohacker shared spaces! Matt
Senate's original assessment (50% SR 50% CCL in the boce court) is what we
have been discussing at CCL meetings. We don't want to be in the basement
(possibly some small storage or reagent supply). Hacker Spa is definitely a
project I support .... hadn't heard about them being in the bocce area
though.
Personally, I was thinking BSL1 on the floor with SR, relatively fluid
access .... although all the common space usages of SR that might be the
first images you think of, will be in the common space. There probably
won't be any dogs and likely fewer guitars (for better or worse). I was
thinking BSL2 as a second story platform in the bocce area that we would
need to build. The access would be easier to control and there would be
fewer airborne contaminants.
CCL would do all of CCL's building and help with any agreed-upon common
area build projects.
So - are we meeting together or separately or both? Next Omni meeting is
4/24 so it should be before that.
<3 The Omni Is Happening <3,
-Ahnon
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] The Omni is happening - PLEASE REVIEW &
DISCUSS!
From: Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
Date: Tue, April 15, 2014 1:51 pm
To: "Patrik D'haeseleer" <patrikd(a)gmail.com>
Cc: "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>rg>,
"counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com"
<counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com>
Patrik,
Thanks for cross-posting and beginning this discussion between our spaces.
It's also possible for us not to have walls for some time, especially
given the size of the bocce ball court, construction scheduling of whatever
space, any number of reasons, etc. One pattern I know of is that (though
they are now moving into a large space) the biohackerspace La Paillasse
actually was previously a contiguous open-air area embedded inside
/tmp/lab/ as i've sketched in the attached images:
edited with
http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/editor/svg-editor.html
They were able to conduct some experiments and hack in the same space,
though of course this can be limiting for some of the reasons you point out
(e.g. dust). The same goes for the LA Biohackerspace that was inside of
Null Space http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Null_Space_Labs as well as the
biohacking contingent of ATX Hackerspace in Austin
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/ATX_Hackerspace
Given this pattern (which isn't a rule of course), what are the rough
timeframe, cost estimate, and responsibility looking like for CCL? I mean,
does CCL intend to build these walls, or is CCL inclined to ask Sudo to
participate, chip-in, etc. Or is this something to be proposed as an Omni
Collective development as part of building build-out or otherwise?
I think the most likely scenario is that we'll throw everything in there,
then start putting together a plan for real walls in a 6-month period, with
designs, etc.
However, one immediate alternative is to isolate biohacking to the
basement (some of which is earmarked for CCL/sudo already), perhaps
construct a library, lounge, meeting room, or even soem sort of CCL/sudo
shared (event?) space in the bocce ball court, avoiding wall-building,
using what's already in the building, and avoiding potential contamination.
I'm open to other ideas, but just wanted to throw this out there:
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
[Cross-posting from sudo room to CCL]
Lots of good points from Matt. I'm probably a bit more optimistic about
the Omni, but it's important to have some of these things nailed down.
I just wanted to expand on some of the issues regarding sharing space
with CCL. We haven't really talked through the logistics of any of this,
but this is my personal opinion of what we'll likely need to do:
Regardless of whether we move in together at the Omni or at 8th & Alice,
CCL will almost certainly need to have all or most of its lab space walled
off. We were kidding about how great it would be to put up plexiglass
partitions, so people can watch the caged science-monkeys at work, but we
do need to have access control over the lab space.
We'll also need to avoid sharing airspace with anything that creates too
much dust, since that's a big contamination issue for any experiments we
do. So we may either need to put a ceiling over the lab space, ask sudoroom
to keep any dust generating equipment (especially woodworking!) in a dust
containing enclosure, or simply agree not to do that type of work in the
same space with us.
I'd imagine we would likely still have some small open social space as
well though. And we may even have a small amount of accessible lab space to
do any food-grade experimentation (kombucha, cheese making, distillation,
you name it...).
So yeah - talking about having collective use of the whole space sounds
nice. But the reality is that CCL will likely need to wall itself off to
some extent, because of the nature of what we do. Hopefully we can make
those walls as transparent as possible ;-)
Patrik
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:23 AM, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
notes in-line below:
*What is the protocol for conflicts and concerns between (or across
I know not everyone will agree with this argument
- I know maybe
something better and more utopian may come by - but are we really going to
wait forever for the perfect building on top of a bart station? It's not
perfect, but I'm not down for waiting for utopia. I'm down for hacking one
together, which is what this is.
It is not just Utopia that may come by, there are other available,
viable spaces on the table in different locations. In most ways I see The
Omni as the Utopic option. For instance see mock-ups of 8th and Alice with
a slice of some of these collectives posited:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice it's actually a pretty
realistic fallback option to The Omni (say if the deal went sour for
whatever reason) at the very least. I don't see 8th and Alice as Utopic,
but it is actually closer to a bart station (2 blocks to Lake Merritt
station).
More importantly, this isn't an all-or-nothing situation. The Omni
Collective should be prepared to exist some place other than The Omni if
need be, it's fine if The Omni is the priority and primary focus. When we
see a proposal to sign a lease at The Omni, we should have one or two naive
options alongside, if even just for our bearings.
*Shouldn't we be closer to BART / PT (@Phil) ?*
It's true, the Omni is 8 blocks from MacArthur BART, so, 5 whole blocks
longer than we currently walk.
...
Is the time cost of 5 extra blocks mean a 'fraction' of those who now
come to Sudo will come to the Omni?
That's not the only way to see this issue. Will Sudoers come to The
Omni? Will they come when it's no longer on their way to/from work? Will
they come if it's an extra few miles bike ride? Will some of our current
paying members be less inclined to contribute regular dues if dropping in
means heading much further from their neighborhood? Will hackers from other
local spaces, long-distance visitors, guests attending events, and the
general public from throughout the bay area make the trip over to sudo room
if they have to consider taking an extra total ~24 minutes of travel time
(NB > OMNI http://goo.gl/maps/iBsBg vs NB > SR http://goo.gl/maps/WV4ks)?
The lesson is both hackerspace-movement-oriented and a local lesson from
Noisebridge--being close to 16th St station encourages lots of traffic,
which I think is more beneficial than the opposite. I don't think this
suggestion is overblown, I think we have to accept it, and accept that 5
blocks does matter, even if it may be worth it ultimately to overcome that
hurdle for other benefits.
The reality here is that moving to The Omni, moving to any new space,
will change the patterns of attendance and usage of sudo room. Whether we
like it or not, for better or for worse. The idea of "forking" sudo room to
keep presences in multiple areas has even been discussed. I think this is a
more practical approach than assuming it will simply work out.
*Okay.. But can we all actually pay the freaking
rent (@Matt)? *
In short, yes. Unless Sudo backs out. In which case, no.
I'm more interested in the following question.
*Can we prove we can pay the rent, with concrete information (@Matt)?* Yes..
but, I'm actually not sure how to do this on a public listserv? I can say
the following:
- We presently have a combination of donations and a long-term
no-interest loan by people in our community that will cover first months'
rent and deposit (move-in costs).
There have been lots of proposals and gestures on the table. Webs of
trust are great, but they aren't perfect. Indeed, it needs to be explicitly
laid out and available to all members of all Omni collectives in order for
genuine analysis to be feasible. The Delegates make a built-in
email/phone-tree btw.
This is in addition to the month-to-month rent commitments made by the
collectives (and their delegates) themselves. We knew the barrier to entry
in the form of move-in costs would be a big burden on us. But you know,
this is what we have been fundraising for, again, for months. This did not
materialize overnight. It was the result of a lot of hard work.
Of course, appreciated work, that you yourself once said would be worth
it regardless of The Omni itself.
- Rental amounts have been discussed by member collectives and
delegates for months in most cases, at every meeting. These amounts have
fluctuated to reflect reality of what members can afford. Everyone knows
what is at stake. This is not just a fairytale dream.. well heck, it is a
dream, but a dream we have all worked hard to bring to the brink of
reality. Does it involve a level of trust? Yes - of course. Do I have any
doubts that we won't pull through? At this point? No.
It's nice to hear these things, but ambiguity can be eliminated if the
numbers and plan are simply written down and handed out.
- Am I expected to dump suitcases full of cash onto the conference
table Wednesday, or.. Anyone who wants more details on this please email me
offlist or just ring me?
Nothing is expected of you or any Omni Collective delegates other than
what you want to put in, and anything you are unwilling or unable to do
should be announced back to the sub-collectives.
I do not like even the idea of participating in a loan, especially from
friends (despite benefits over sycophants like banks). I would personally
be inclined to compromise on taking one, but only knowing precise terms.
Instead, if we started collecting regular rent dues for April and May, we
would simply have the deposit down without the loans. Plus we would have
the commitment of member-collectives.
*What are the terms of the lease (i.e. the full
contract)?*
Ok - the proposed terms of the lease are finally just now starting to
be negotiated, in that we are finally starting to actually make
counterproposals.
This isn't what I mean. Yes, some of the terms are up for negotiation,
but what about a contract with the rest of the landlord's terms for our
reference and to have time to get clarity?
- We can collectively afford our rent as is, at
least for the first
year. I will show you the spreadsheets.
If the existing collectives actually are going to contribute at the rate
they've suggested and if they actually pay. Knowing collectives, let's just
be honest, a member group of The Omni Collective may simply back out--sudo
room included--it happens. I'd like to know what lurches are possible to be
left by everyone and whether those constitute risks that are worth taking.
On the other hand, recruiting alternative collectives may become a bigger
priority if we realize that say more than 1 of the Omni Collective member
groups won't be making rent.
- We will have the first+deposit covered by
donations and interest-free
personal loan.
If we agree to this.
- Sudo's part would be $2K/mo.
Patrik's comment above is crucial in terms of contextualizing this rate
and the rates for other member collectives. That amount is how much sudo
room gestures it can make as-is.
*Lease length (2 years, 3 years?) (@Matt):*
- We can sign a 2 or longer year lease. Up to us. Less than 2 years
would be a hard sell. More than 2 years is easier.
Have the other collectives weight in on this? Can we get a better rate
for greater than 2 years? Does any collective have a reason why a 2-year
timeline is not feasible for them?
*Landlord in or out? (@Matt):*
- Up to us entirely: If he can stay there for ~3 months while he moves,
the rent will be a lot lower for those months. If we don't want him to
stay, he'll vacate in 30 days, but then we dont get a break during those
first ~three months.
Any chance of making an ask to get it rent-free for a 3 month summer
move-out and simultaneous build-out? (basically we'd just be coming in to
their home for 3 months preparing as they moved, right?)
*What are the terms of space usage? (@Matt)*
In the current envisioning, Sudo would have to itself:
- Half the bocce ball court room (giant back area), shared with CCL in
the other half
- This area is handicapped accessible, with handicapped-accessible
bathrooms, & street access.
- This area has massive, 55ft(?) ceilings with ample space to make
add'l rooms, lofts, balconies, etc
This is precisely what needs to be outlined for everyone to even
consider moving in. I'm very uneasy about vagueness here. One of sudo
room's minimum requirements is relevant
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Spaces#Precise_Constraints
"Security and privacy
e.g. not a hallway or shared access with other tenants we don't know."
If sudo room is sharing the bocce ball court with CCL, we have to either
consider how we share space, or consider build-out to meet this minimum
requirement. Maybe we can be embedded like /tmp/lab/ and La Paillasse, or
maybe not. We need time to at least talk and decide before agreeing to
move. I don't think that's very extreme. It doesn't have to be perfect,
just a baseline.
*Who moves where? (@Matt)*
All groups: have use of shared space
We need to go over the floor plan, but point being - we do have a space
for everyone that people are good with
I can't stress enough how much I disagree with this point. We can't
build consensus by saying it's so. It's not bike-shedding to know precisely
what you have access to in exchange for payment, and relative to your
partners. Patrik's message in this regard is a good first step, but this is
essential and unresolved, high priority IMHO.
*Which areas are exclusive (private) or inclusive (common)? (@Matt):*
Shared areas:
...
- big ol cafe to hang out in
This is the only space mentioned of concern, the rest make sense. The
cafe is actually private space, unless we have an agreement that it is
treated especially different since it should be treated as common space for
various reasons. Either way, it's important we know this going in.
members of) Omni Oakland sub-collectives?*
To some extent re: how the delegate structure works, see:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/The_Omni/2014-04-03#The_Omni_Oakland_Collective
In terms of conflict resolution, that has come up several times and we
are working on that now - we are looking at the terms Sudo uses that (from
what I understand) were originally cribbed from Noisebridge. This is an
area we need to work on - we have been mostly focused on the financials,
apportioning space and accruing the will to come together and do this.
We also have to work more on our articles of incorporation and
association. We are working actively on that.
I know the details are under-developed, and they will only improve with
time as all things. However, does The Omni Collective think it can come to
resolution on this by June 1st or is this something that should be turned
into an ask for help from the sub-collective memberships?
*Additionally, what rights and responsibilities do members of the
public (or as I usually say for sudo, which I think applies here,
"prospective members" of any of our collectives) have? (@Matt)*
In broad terms - my view:
For the entire space, members of the public have a responsibility to
abide by the accepted rules of the space assented to by all the collectives
within it, which will be akin to the safe space policy Sudo currently has
in place @ 2141, and although we haven't voted on it yet, a conflict
resolution policy in line with what Sudo already has.
Each collective additionally maintains its own subset of rules for
itself and members of the public in its own localized dedicated area within
the building, that are not in conflict with rules and values for the whole
space.
Its conceivable that the public may not be allowed free reign over 100%
of the space and its materials all the time. For example, I can imagine if
there are dance rehearsals, Live Space may not always want that public. If
there is film development going on in a darkroom, its possible they may not
want the door open randomly. If TIL's letterpress machine is in the
basement, the public may need to be trained on how to use it before using
it. The same way that not everyone has access to root on Sudo's Mediawiki
off the bat - there are conditions. CCL may have machines and rooms that
not everyone in the public is able to just freely use unless they have the
requisite knowledge. Stuff like that. Make sense..?
I think this needs to be more direct, e.g.:
There are private spaces (defined by map) that only the members of the
respective collectives are entitled to access, under the terms relevant for
their community. For common spaces, either a process exists for reserving
and using the space as private space (up to the reservation's terms), or
all members of the Omni Collective have access. As for "prospective
members" or the general public, essentially at this point there is no
entitlement to common space nor to any private space. Perhaps there are
spaces designation for building maintenance / storage needs, access based
on discretion and need.
*For existing member collectives can we start
collecting rent
contributions immediately (to be paid forward to rent after any agreed-upon
contract is signed)? (@Matt)*
This has been discussed obviously. We will start this forthwith.
Remember we have donations and a loan that forms
the basis of the barriers
to entry. We just received paperwork of our CA NP status, so we can open a
bank account just for the collective. Partly we're also waiting on Land
Trust fiscal sponsorship which will make things easier on donors. But the
money is there, with or without that.
I'd much rather see an ask to put in a membership deposit by June 1 than
move-in given the wild hairs. Unless there's a reason to believe these
things will come in line to allow for a consensus process to conclude
before May 1.
4:42 p.m.
New subject: [CCL] Re: The Omni is happening
I can't tell you how excited I am that this is happening! (and am also
hella-excited about some BSL-2 space!)...
Yay amazing people! Y'all rock!
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
I think one of the storage spaces at the end of the
Bocce court ([4] and
[5] on my numbered floorplan) could be perfect for a BSL-2. Plenty for one
or two benches plus a fridge/freezer and some other equipment. Most people
doing BSL-2 work don't really need to be in the BSL-2 space for the entire
time anyway. I've seen academic and commercial labs where all the BSL-2
work was essentially relegated to a small windowless room as well.
Building an extra floor is a huge hurdle, and would presumably require
building permits etc.
Patrik
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:03 PM, ahnon <ahnon(a)ahnon.org> wrote:
Re: space
We need to talk about this in our own meetings and then bring it to the
Omni meeting. Maybe we should have a collaborative meeting with SR to
discuss the project as well. I'm not convinced online is the best place for
this discussion.
Matt - thanks for the perspective on hacker/biohacker shared spaces! Matt
Senate's original assessment (50% SR 50% CCL in the boce court) is what we
have been discussing at CCL meetings. We don't want to be in the basement
(possibly some small storage or reagent supply). Hacker Spa is definitely a
project I support .... hadn't heard about them being in the bocce area
though.
Personally, I was thinking BSL1 on the floor with SR, relatively fluid
access .... although all the common space usages of SR that might be the
first images you think of, will be in the common space. There probably
won't be any dogs and likely fewer guitars (for better or worse). I was
thinking BSL2 as a second story platform in the bocce area that we would
need to build. The access would be easier to control and there would be
fewer airborne contaminants.
CCL would do all of CCL's building and help with any agreed-upon common
area build projects.
So - are we meeting together or separately or both? Next Omni meeting is
4/24 so it should be before that.
<3 The Omni Is Happening <3,
-Ahnon
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] The Omni is happening - PLEASE REVIEW &
DISCUSS!
From: Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com>
Date: Tue, April 15, 2014 1:51 pm
To: "Patrik D'haeseleer" <patrikd(a)gmail.com>
Cc: "sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org" <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>rg>,
"counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com"
<counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com>
Patrik,
Thanks for cross-posting and beginning this discussion between our
spaces.
It's also possible for us not to have walls for some time, especially
given the size of the bocce ball court, construction scheduling of whatever
space, any number of reasons, etc. One pattern I know of is that (though
they are now moving into a large space) the biohackerspace La Paillasse
actually was previously a contiguous open-air area embedded inside
/tmp/lab/ as i've sketched in the attached images:
edited with
http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/editor/svg-editor.html
They were able to conduct some experiments and hack in the same space,
though of course this can be limiting for some of the reasons you point out
(e.g. dust). The same goes for the LA Biohackerspace that was inside of
Null Space http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Null_Space_Labs as well as the
biohacking contingent of ATX Hackerspace in Austin
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/ATX_Hackerspace
Given this pattern (which isn't a rule of course), what are the rough
timeframe, cost estimate, and responsibility looking like for CCL? I mean,
does CCL intend to build these walls, or is CCL inclined to ask Sudo to
participate, chip-in, etc. Or is this something to be proposed as an Omni
Collective development as part of building build-out or otherwise?
I think the most likely scenario is that we'll throw everything in there,
then start putting together a plan for real walls in a 6-month period, with
designs, etc.
However, one immediate alternative is to isolate biohacking to the
basement (some of which is earmarked for CCL/sudo already), perhaps
construct a library, lounge, meeting room, or even soem sort of CCL/sudo
shared (event?) space in the bocce ball court, avoiding wall-building,
using what's already in the building, and avoiding potential contamination.
I'm open to other ideas, but just wanted to throw this out there:
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
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[Cross-posting from sudo room to CCL]
Lots of good points from Matt. I'm probably a bit more optimistic about
the Omni, but it's important to have some of these things nailed down.
I just wanted to expand on some of the issues regarding sharing space
with CCL. We haven't really talked through the logistics of any of this,
but this is my personal opinion of what we'll likely need to do:
Regardless of whether we move in together at the Omni or at 8th & Alice,
CCL will almost certainly need to have all or most of its lab space walled
off. We were kidding about how great it would be to put up plexiglass
partitions, so people can watch the caged science-monkeys at work, but we
do need to have access control over the lab space.
We'll also need to avoid sharing airspace with anything that creates too
much dust, since that's a big contamination issue for any experiments we
do. So we may either need to put a ceiling over the lab space, ask sudoroom
to keep any dust generating equipment (especially woodworking!) in a dust
containing enclosure, or simply agree not to do that type of work in the
same space with us.
I'd imagine we would likely still have some small open social space as
well though. And we may even have a small amount of accessible lab space to
do any food-grade experimentation (kombucha, cheese making, distillation,
you name it...).
So yeah - talking about having collective use of the whole space sounds
nice. But the reality is that CCL will likely need to wall itself off to
some extent, because of the nature of what we do. Hopefully we can make
those walls as transparent as possible ;-)
Patrik
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:23 AM, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
notes in-line below:
> I know not everyone will agree with this argument - I know maybe
> something better and more utopian may come by - but are we really going to
> wait forever for the perfect building on top of a bart station? It's not
> perfect, but I'm not down for waiting for utopia. I'm down for hacking one
> together, which is what this is.
>
It is not just Utopia that may come by, there are other available,
viable spaces on the table in different locations. In most ways I see The
Omni as the Utopic option. For instance see mock-ups of 8th and Alice with
a slice of some of these collectives posited:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice it's actually a pretty
realistic fallback option to The Omni (say if the deal went sour for
whatever reason) at the very least. I don't see 8th and Alice as Utopic,
but it is actually closer to a bart station (2 blocks to Lake Merritt
station).
More importantly, this isn't an all-or-nothing situation. The Omni
Collective should be prepared to exist some place other than The Omni if
need be, it's fine if The Omni is the priority and primary focus. When we
see a proposal to sign a lease at The Omni, we should have one or two naive
options alongside, if even just for our bearings.
>
> *Shouldn't we be closer to BART / PT (@Phil) ?*
> It's true, the Omni is 8 blocks from MacArthur BART, so, 5 whole
> blocks longer than we currently walk.
>
> ...
>
>
> Is the time cost of 5 extra blocks mean a 'fraction' of those who now
> come to Sudo will come to the Omni?
>
>
That's not the only way to see this issue. Will Sudoers come to The
Omni? Will they come when it's no longer on their way to/from work? Will
they come if it's an extra few miles bike ride? Will some of our current
paying members be less inclined to contribute regular dues if dropping in
means heading much further from their neighborhood? Will hackers from other
local spaces, long-distance visitors, guests attending events, and the
general public from throughout the bay area make the trip over to sudo room
if they have to consider taking an extra total ~24 minutes of travel time
(NB > OMNI http://goo.gl/maps/iBsBg vs NB > SR http://goo.gl/maps/WV4ks)?
The lesson is both hackerspace-movement-oriented and a local lesson from
Noisebridge--being close to 16th St station encourages lots of traffic,
which I think is more beneficial than the opposite. I don't think this
suggestion is overblown, I think we have to accept it, and accept that 5
blocks does matter, even if it may be worth it ultimately to overcome that
hurdle for other benefits.
The reality here is that moving to The Omni, moving to any new space,
will change the patterns of attendance and usage of sudo room. Whether we
like it or not, for better or for worse. The idea of "forking" sudo room to
keep presences in multiple areas has even been discussed. I think this is a
more practical approach than assuming it will simply work out.
> *Okay.. But can we all actually pay the freaking rent (@Matt)? *
> In short, yes. Unless Sudo backs out. In which case, no.
>
I'm more interested in the following question.
>
> *Can we prove we can pay the rent, with concrete information (@Matt)?* Yes..
> but, I'm actually not sure how to do this on a public listserv? I can say
> the following:
>
> - We presently have a combination of donations and a long-term
> no-interest loan by people in our community that will cover first months'
> rent and deposit (move-in costs).
>
There have been lots of proposals and gestures on the table. Webs of
trust are great, but they aren't perfect. Indeed, it needs to be explicitly
laid out and available to all members of all Omni collectives in order for
genuine analysis to be feasible. The Delegates make a built-in
email/phone-tree btw.
>
> This is in addition to the month-to-month rent commitments made by the
> collectives (and their delegates) themselves. We knew the barrier to entry
> in the form of move-in costs would be a big burden on us. But you know,
> this is what we have been fundraising for, again, for months. This did not
> materialize overnight. It was the result of a lot of hard work.
>
Of course, appreciated work, that you yourself once said would be worth
it regardless of The Omni itself.
>
> - Rental amounts have been discussed by member collectives and
> delegates for months in most cases, at every meeting. These amounts have
> fluctuated to reflect reality of what members can afford. Everyone knows
> what is at stake. This is not just a fairytale dream.. well heck, it is a
> dream, but a dream we have all worked hard to bring to the brink of
> reality. Does it involve a level of trust? Yes - of course. Do I have any
> doubts that we won't pull through? At this point? No.
>
It's nice to hear these things, but ambiguity can be eliminated if the
numbers and plan are simply written down and handed out.
>
> - Am I expected to dump suitcases full of cash onto the conference
> table Wednesday, or.. Anyone who wants more details on this please email me
> offlist or just ring me?
>
Nothing is expected of you or any Omni Collective delegates other than
what you want to put in, and anything you are unwilling or unable to do
should be announced back to the sub-collectives.
I do not like even the idea of participating in a loan, especially from
friends (despite benefits over sycophants like banks). I would personally
be inclined to compromise on taking one, but only knowing precise terms.
Instead, if we started collecting regular rent dues for April and May, we
would simply have the deposit down without the loans. Plus we would have
the commitment of member-collectives.
> *What are the terms of the lease (i.e. the full contract)?*
> Ok - the proposed terms of the lease are finally just now starting to
> be negotiated, in that we are finally starting to actually make
> counterproposals.
>
This isn't what I mean. Yes, some of the terms are up for negotiation,
but what about a contract with the rest of the landlord's terms for our
reference and to have time to get clarity?
> - We can collectively afford our rent as is, at least for the first
> year. I will show you the spreadsheets.
>
If the existing collectives actually are going to contribute at the
rate they've suggested and if they actually pay. Knowing collectives, let's
just be honest, a member group of The Omni Collective may simply back
out--sudo room included--it happens. I'd like to know what lurches are
possible to be left by everyone and whether those constitute risks that are
worth taking. On the other hand, recruiting alternative collectives may
become a bigger priority if we realize that say more than 1 of the Omni
Collective member groups won't be making rent.
> - We will have the first+deposit covered by donations and
> interest-free personal loan.
>
If we agree to this.
>
> - Sudo's part would be $2K/mo.
>
Patrik's comment above is crucial in terms of contextualizing this rate
and the rates for other member collectives. That amount is how much sudo
room gestures it can make as-is.
> *Lease length (2 years, 3 years?) (@Matt):*
> - We can sign a 2 or longer year lease. Up to us. Less than 2 years
> would be a hard sell. More than 2 years is easier.
>
Have the other collectives weight in on this? Can we get a better rate
for greater than 2 years? Does any collective have a reason why a 2-year
timeline is not feasible for them?
> *Landlord in or out? (@Matt):*
> - Up to us entirely: If he can stay there for ~3 months while he
> moves, the rent will be a lot lower for those months. If we don't want him
> to stay, he'll vacate in 30 days, but then we dont get a break during those
> first ~three months.
>
Any chance of making an ask to get it rent-free for a 3 month summer
move-out and simultaneous build-out? (basically we'd just be coming in to
their home for 3 months preparing as they moved, right?)
> *What are the terms of space usage? (@Matt)*
>
> In the current envisioning, Sudo would have to itself:
> - Half the bocce ball court room (giant back area), shared with CCL in
> the other half
> - This area is handicapped accessible, with handicapped-accessible
> bathrooms, & street access.
> - This area has massive, 55ft(?) ceilings with ample space to make
> add'l rooms, lofts, balconies, etc
>
This is precisely what needs to be outlined for everyone to even
consider moving in. I'm very uneasy about vagueness here. One of sudo
room's minimum requirements is relevant
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Spaces#Precise_Constraints
"Security and privacy
e.g. not a hallway or shared access with other tenants we don't know."
If sudo room is sharing the bocce ball court with CCL, we have to
either consider how we share space, or consider build-out to meet this
minimum requirement. Maybe we can be embedded like /tmp/lab/ and La
Paillasse, or maybe not. We need time to at least talk and decide before
agreeing to move. I don't think that's very extreme. It doesn't have to be
perfect, just a baseline.
> *Who moves where? (@Matt)*
>
> All groups: have use of shared space
>
> We need to go over the floor plan, but point being - we do have a
> space for everyone that people are good with
>
I can't stress enough how much I disagree with this point. We can't
build consensus by saying it's so. It's not bike-shedding to know precisely
what you have access to in exchange for payment, and relative to your
partners. Patrik's message in this regard is a good first step, but this is
essential and unresolved, high priority IMHO.
>
> *Which areas are exclusive (private) or inclusive (common)? (@Matt):*
>
> Shared areas:
> ...
>
> - big ol cafe to hang out in
>
This is the only space mentioned of concern, the rest make sense. The
cafe is actually private space, unless we have an agreement that it is
treated especially different since it should be treated as common space for
various reasons. Either way, it's important we know this going in.
>
>
*What is the protocol for conflicts and concerns between (or across
> members of) Omni Oakland sub-collectives?*
> To some extent re: how the delegate structure works, see:
>
> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/The_Omni/2014-04-03#The_Omni_Oakland_Collective
>
> In terms of conflict resolution, that has come up several times and we
> are working on that now - we are looking at the terms Sudo uses that (from
> what I understand) were originally cribbed from Noisebridge. This is an
> area we need to work on - we have been mostly focused on the financials,
> apportioning space and accruing the will to come together and do this.
>
> We also have to work more on our articles of incorporation and
> association. We are working actively on that.
>
I know the details are under-developed, and they will only improve with
time as all things. However, does The Omni Collective think it can come to
resolution on this by June 1st or is this something that should be turned
into an ask for help from the sub-collective memberships?
>
> *Additionally, what rights and responsibilities do members of the
> public (or as I usually say for sudo, which I think applies here,
> "prospective members" of any of our collectives) have? (@Matt)*
>
> In broad terms - my view:
>
> For the entire space, members of the public have a responsibility to
> abide by the accepted rules of the space assented to by all the collectives
> within it, which will be akin to the safe space policy Sudo currently has
> in place @ 2141, and although we haven't voted on it yet, a conflict
> resolution policy in line with what Sudo already has.
>
> Each collective additionally maintains its own subset of rules for
> itself and members of the public in its own localized dedicated area within
> the building, that are not in conflict with rules and values for the whole
> space.
>
> Its conceivable that the public may not be allowed free reign over
> 100% of the space and its materials all the time. For example, I can
> imagine if there are dance rehearsals, Live Space may not always want that
> public. If there is film development going on in a darkroom, its possible
> they may not want the door open randomly. If TIL's letterpress machine is
> in the basement, the public may need to be trained on how to use it before
> using it. The same way that not everyone has access to root on Sudo's
> Mediawiki off the bat - there are conditions. CCL may have machines and
> rooms that not everyone in the public is able to just freely use unless
> they have the requisite knowledge. Stuff like that. Make sense..?
>
I think this needs to be more direct, e.g.:
There are private spaces (defined by map) that only the members of the
respective collectives are entitled to access, under the terms relevant for
their community. For common spaces, either a process exists for reserving
and using the space as private space (up to the reservation's terms), or
all members of the Omni Collective have access. As for "prospective
members" or the general public, essentially at this point there is no
entitlement to common space nor to any private space. Perhaps there are
spaces designation for building maintenance / storage needs, access based
on discretion and need.
> *For existing member collectives can we start collecting rent
> contributions immediately (to be paid forward to rent after any agreed-upon
> contract is signed)? (@Matt)*
>
This has been discussed obviously. We will start this forthwith.
> Remember we have donations and a loan that forms the basis of the barriers
> to entry. We just received paperwork of our CA NP status, so we can open a
> bank account just for the collective. Partly we're also waiting on Land
> Trust fiscal sponsorship which will make things easier on donors. But the
> money is there, with or without that.
>
I'd much rather see an ask to put in a membership deposit by June 1
than move-in given the wild hairs. Unless there's a reason to believe these
things will come in line to allow for a consensus process to conclude
before May 1.
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2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
ahnon -
Craig Rouskey -
Patrik D'haeseleer