30 Jan
2013
30 Jan
'13
12:54 p.m.
> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to
the #sudoroom IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have
operator privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If you have an
issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
There've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life's work
to push peoples' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn't even seem to know anybody's name. They'd also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do's and
don'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
30 Jan
30 Jan
1:07 p.m.
New subject: IRC
Do you know why America is awesome? We have the time and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently
the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the #sudoroom IRC
channel are jealously
resistant to sharing control,
This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas
have operator privileges
and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If you
have an issue
with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new channel will not solve that
problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
There've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life's work
to push peoples' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn't even seem to know anybody's name. They'd also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do's and
don'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
1:15 p.m.
New subject: IRC
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
with Yardena's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
Do you know why America is awesome? We have the time
and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com
<mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin
privileges to the #sudoroom
IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing
control,
This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas
have operator
privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire.
If
you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
There've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life's work
to push peoples' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn't even seem to know anybody's name. They'd also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do's and
don'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss 
1:20 p.m.
New subject: IRC
OKAY, I've added some more to the conflict resolution item on our agenda
tonight: https://pad.riseup.net/p/sudoroom
// Matt
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:15 PM, rachel lyra hospodar
<rachelyra(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me
sadfaced.
Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC policy.
That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded with
Yardena's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am not sure
if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
Do you know why America is awesome? We have the
time and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com
<mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
______________________________**_________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.**org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/**listinfo/sudo-discuss<http://lists.sudoroom.…
> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin
privileges to the #sudoroom
IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing
control,
This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas
have operator
privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire.
If
you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**IRC#Modes<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
https://freenode.net/using_**the_network.shtml<https://freenode.net/usin…
There've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life's work
to push peoples' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/**Community_Structure<http://sudoroom.org/wiki/…)e>).
In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn't even seem to know anybody's name. They'd also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do's and
don'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
______________________________**_________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.**org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org><mailtolt;mailto:
sudo-discuss(a)lists.**sudoroom.org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/**listinfo/sudo-discuss<http://lists.sudoroom.…
______________________________**_________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.**org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/**listinfo/sudo-discuss<http://lists.sudoroom.…
1:33 p.m.
New subject: IRC
I've also written an IRC bot in python. super basic that can ops people
from a list. It works with server messages directly too so i can write it
to perform any other actions that would be beneficial to our IRC channel
and policy.
Just throwing that out there.
-Wolfy
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Matthew Senate <mattsenate(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
OKAY, I've added some more to the conflict
resolution item on our agenda
tonight: https://pad.riseup.net/p/sudoroom
// Matt
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:15 PM, rachel lyra hospodar <rachelyra(a)gmail.com
wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me
sadfaced.
Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded with
Yardena's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am not sure
if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Do you know why America is awesome? We have the
time and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com
<mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
______________________________**_________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.**org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/**listinfo/sudo-discuss<http://lists.sudoroom.…
> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin
privileges to the #sudoroom
IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing
control,
This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas
have operator
privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire.
If
you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in
the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he's absolutely right that we have op
privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best
guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**IRC#Modes<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
https://freenode.net/using_**the_network.shtml<https://freenode.net/usin…
There've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using
oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life's work
to push peoples' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel.
When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize
the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/**Community_Structure<http://sudoroom.org/wiki/…)e>).
In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn't even seem to know anybody's name. They'd also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This
sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people
who
saw us as a joke; didn't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made
it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately
reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do's and
don'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
______________________________**_________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.**org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org><mailtolt;mailto:
sudo-discuss(a)lists.**sudoroom.org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/**listinfo/sudo-discuss<http://lists.sudoroom.…
______________________________**_________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.**org <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/**listinfo/sudo-discuss<http://lists.sudoroom.…
2:26 p.m.
New subject: IRC
bumping rachel's sentiment here. yardena's note here was the clearest explanation
I've seen, as someone who doesn't really get on the IRC channel and who would like
this information to get out prior to the meeting so as to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
Do you know why America is awesome? We have the
time and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can 't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin
privileges to the #sudoroom
IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing
control,
This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas
have operator
privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire.
If
you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's work
to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They 'd
also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
3:46 p.m.
New subject: IRC
Here's a proposal.
Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by SudoRoom the
collective. [assumption 1]
Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever SudoRoom decides.
[assumption 2]
Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be filtered for the
purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
Then I suggest we:
(0) test the assumptions first.
(a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
(b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot implementations
included.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
bumping rachel's sentiment here. yardena's
note here was the clearest explanation I've seen, as someone who doesn't really
get on the IRC channel and who would like this information to get out prior to the meeting
so as to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss Do you know why America is awesome? We have the
time and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can 't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin
privileges to the #sudoroom
IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing
control,
This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas
have operator
privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If
you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's work
to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They 'd
also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss 
3:47 p.m.
New subject: IRC
Founder status is not required to "filter" the content of the channel
On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Jae Kwon wrote:
Here's a proposal.
Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by SudoRoom the
collective. [assumption 1]
Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever SudoRoom decides.
[assumption 2]
Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be filtered for the
purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
Then I suggest we:
(0) test the assumptions first.
(a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
(b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot implementations
included.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
bumping rachel's sentiment here.
yardena's note here was the clearest explanation I've seen, as someone who
doesn't really get on the IRC channel and who would like this information to get out
prior to the meeting so as to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss Do you know why America is awesome? We have the
time and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can 't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the #sudoroom
IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
> This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator
privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If
you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's work
to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They 'd also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
3:59 p.m.
New subject: IRC
From the thread, it seems that Founder status can override administrative decisions. Like
root status, it has ultimate control.
So security of Founder status is required to correctly filter the channel.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Mischa Spiegelmock <thadwooster(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Founder status is not required to "filter"
the content of the channel
On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Jae Kwon wrote:
Here's a proposal.
Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by SudoRoom the
collective. [assumption 1]
Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever SudoRoom decides.
[assumption 2]
Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be filtered for the
purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
Then I suggest we:
(0) test the assumptions first.
(a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
(b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot implementations
included.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss bumping rachel's sentiment here.
yardena's note here was the clearest explanation I've seen, as someone who
doesn't really get on the IRC channel and who would like this information to get out
prior to the meeting so as to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
> Do you know why America is awesome? We have the time and privilege and
> resources to argue
> over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
>
> I can 't wait for the next comet.
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
> mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>>> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the #sudoroom
> IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
>
>> This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator
> privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If
> you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
> channel will not solve that problem.
>
> I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
> creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
> the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
> (he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
> at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
> trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's apologized to me
> in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
> hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
> NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
> accessibility and diversity of our community.
>
> As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
> but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
> people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
> will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
> but more general guides are online:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
> https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
>
> There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
>
> 1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
> decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
> we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
> and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
> general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
> way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
> slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
> happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's work
> to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
> the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
> random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
> be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
>
> 2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
> with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
> "accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
> asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
> Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
> http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
> shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
> summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They 'd
also
> set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
> Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
> a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
> saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that there was
> little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
> colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
> escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
> significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
> and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
> "poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
>
> I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
> subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
> they are.
>
> I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
> would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
> the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
> encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
> don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
> the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
> other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
> about the community.
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss 
4:39 p.m.
New subject: IRC
It's pretty clear that based on the aforementioned abuses that founder
status has to be changed. What was unclear to me is the process on
Freenode of how to change it. There is some documentation available on
the Freenode policy document.
Channel Ownership
Channels on freenode are owned and operated by the groups which
register them. No minimum level of activity or moderation is expected
or required of channel owners. The network exists to further on-topic
uses, as explained in this policy, and channels or groups may be
removed from the network for activity which is considered to be
off-topic.
However:
Primary Channels
Primary channel names, formatted with a single leading hash mark (#),
are reserved for participating groups and organizations based on
their legal or informal claim to the associated name or name prefix.
For example, Peer-Directed Projects Center, the organization which
runs the network, has reserved the name freenode and has been granted
control over channel #freenode, as well as any channel beginning with
#freenode-.
Name claims can be appealed, at which point network staff will look
for an appropriate resolution to the conflict. We may suggest
informal solutions to promote compromise by the parties involved; but
in the absence of such solutions, we'll give priority to groups in
the following categories, listed in order from highest to lowest
priority. Within each category, we'll give priority to the group with
the longest documented use of the name.
Non-govermental organizations, standards organizations, government
entities, formal news organizations, corporations, businesses and
individuals with legally valid claims.
Informal FOSS community projects and other projects producing
broadly-licensed output.
Web media projects, geographically-based interest groups, FOSS
support groups and informal education/reference groups.
I'm thinking we have a legally valid claim as a DBA. If we get
registered as a 501(c)3 or other legally "more legit" organization, we'd
fall more properly under category 1. I don't know if this was on the
table already, but there are a number of other advantages to 501(c)3
status: it would allow us to receive tax deductible donations as well as
be more likely to be endowed with grants, if we choose to pursue them.
So there's that.
Hope this clarifies things.
Bill
@legind
On 01/30/2013 03:59 PM, Jae Kwon wrote:
From the thread, it seems that Founder status can
override administrative decisions. Like root status, it has ultimate control.
So security of Founder status is required to correctly filter the channel.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Mischa Spiegelmock <thadwooster(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Founder status is not required to
"filter" the content of the channel
On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Jae Kwon wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Here's a proposal.
Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by SudoRoom the
collective. [assumption 1]
Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever SudoRoom decides.
[assumption 2]
Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be filtered for the
purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
Then I suggest we:
(0) test the assumptions first.
(a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
(b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot implementations
included.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss bumping rachel's sentiment here.
yardena's note here was the clearest explanation I've seen, as someone who
doesn't really get on the IRC channel and who would like this information to get out
prior to the meeting so as to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
>
> Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
> divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
> boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
> dismissive and rude.
>
> Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
> last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
> her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
>
> Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
> policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
> with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
> not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
>
> R.
>
> On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
>> Do you know why America is awesome? We have the time and privilege and
>> resources to argue
>> over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
>>
>> I can 't wait for the next comet.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
>> mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the #sudoroom
>> IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
>>
>>> This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator
>> privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If
>> you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
>> channel will not solve that problem.
>>
>> I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
>> creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
>> the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
>> (he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
>> at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
>> trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's apologized to me
>> in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
>> hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
>> NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
>> accessibility and diversity of our community.
>>
>> As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
>> but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
>> people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
>> will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
>> but more general guides are online:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
>> https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
>>
>> There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
>>
>> 1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
>> decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
>> we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
>> and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
>> general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
>> way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
>> slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
>> happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's work
>> to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
>> the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
>> random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
>> be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
>>
>> 2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
>> with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
>> "accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel.
When
>> asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
>> Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
>> http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
>> shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
>> summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They
'd also
>> set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
>> Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
>> a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
>> saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that there was
>> little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
>> colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
>> escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
>> significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
>> and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
>> "poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
>>
>> I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
>> subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
>> they are.
>>
>> I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
>> would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
>> the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
>> encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
>> don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
>> the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
>> other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
>> about the community.
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss 
4:50 p.m.
New subject: IRC
This is a bit misleading, anyone with +o can override anyone else with
+o. Including banning / unbanning / filtering decisions / etc.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Jae Kwon <jkwon.work(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From the thread, it seems that Founder status can
override administrative decisions. Like root status, it has ultimate control.
So security of Founder status is required to correctly filter the channel.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Mischa Spiegelmock <thadwooster(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Founder status is not required to
"filter" the content of the channel
On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Jae Kwon wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss Here's a proposal.
Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by SudoRoom the
collective. [assumption 1]
Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever SudoRoom decides.
[assumption 2]
Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be filtered for the
purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
Then I suggest we:
(0) test the assumptions first.
(a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
(b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot implementations
included.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss bumping rachel's sentiment here.
yardena's note here was the clearest explanation I've seen, as someone who
doesn't really get on the IRC channel and who would like this information to get out
prior to the meeting so as to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
>
> Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
> divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
> boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
> dismissive and rude.
>
> Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
> last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
> her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
>
> Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
> policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
> with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
> not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
>
> R.
>
> On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
>> Do you know why America is awesome? We have the time and privilege and
>> resources to argue
>> over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
>>
>> I can 't wait for the next comet.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
>> mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the #sudoroom
>> IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
>>
>>> This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator
>> privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If
>> you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
>> channel will not solve that problem.
>>
>> I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
>> creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
>> the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
>> (he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
>> at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
>> trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's apologized to me
>> in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
>> hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
>> NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
>> accessibility and diversity of our community.
>>
>> As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
>> but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
>> people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
>> will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
>> but more general guides are online:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
>> https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
>>
>> There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
>>
>> 1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
>> decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
>> we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
>> and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
>> general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
>> way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
>> slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
>> happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's work
>> to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
>> the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
>> random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
>> be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
>>
>> 2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
>> with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
>> "accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel.
When
>> asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
>> Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
>> http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
>> shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
>> summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They
'd also
>> set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
>> Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
>> a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
>> saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that there was
>> little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
>> colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
>> escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
>> significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
>> and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
>> "poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
>>
>> I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
>> subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
>> they are.
>>
>> I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
>> would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
>> the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
>> encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
>> don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
>> the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
>> other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
>> about the community.
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
5:15 p.m.
New subject: IRC
So will we do this through consensus? Majority rules? Unanimous consent?
Filter unsafe things on IRC should really be done at the client level.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Jae Kwon <jkwon.work(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Here's a proposal.
Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by
SudoRoom the collective. [assumption 1]
Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever
SudoRoom decides. [assumption 2]
Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be
filtered for the purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
Then I suggest we:
(0) test the assumptions first.
(a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
(b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot
implementations included.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
bumping rachel's sentiment here.
yardena's note here was the clearest
explanation I've seen, as someone who
doesn't really get on the IRC channel
and who would like this information to get out prior to the meeting so as
to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
>
> Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
> divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
> boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
> dismissive and rude.
>
> Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
> last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
> her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
>
> Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
> policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
> with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
> not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
>
> R.
>
> On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
>> Do you know why America is awesome? We have the time and privilege and
>> resources to argue
>> over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
>>
>> I can 't wait for the next comet.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
>> mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the #sudoroom
>> IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
>>
>>> This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator
>> privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If
>> you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
>> channel will not solve that problem.
>>
>> I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
>> creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
>> the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
>> (he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment,
or
>> at the very least disingenuous passive
aggressive participation in
the
>> trolling games that have been going on
lately. He 's apologized to
me
>> in private since then but I just want
to register that joking about
>> hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
>> NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
>> accessibility and diversity of our community.
>>
>> As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op
privileges,
>> but this obscures a few things. For
technical background, I
encourage
>> people to read about the difference
between +F and +o. Your best
guide
>> will be logging onto freenode and
typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
>> but more general guides are online:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
>> https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
>>
>> There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
>>
>> 1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
>> decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
>> we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly
controversial
>> and fall on ideological fault lines
over how to run an IRC channel
in
>> general, so I agree 100% with Andrew
that a clear IRC policy is the
>> way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using
oppressive
>> slurs, and my position has been not to
tolerate them very much. We
>> happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's
work
>> to push peoples ' buttons with
slurs, and happened to be doing
that IN
>> the IRC channel. He 'd also made
a habit of typing anatomical
words at
>> random times. Form your own opinions.
Again, the solution to this
may
>> be more about having a clear policy,
than who enforces it.
>>
>> 2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
>> with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
>> "accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel.
When
>> asked to share +F with other people,
his response was to vandalize
the
>> Sudoroom wiki to say he is the
"leader" (
>> http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
>> shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
>> summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They
'd also
>> set the +S (successor) flag for a
person who is emphatically NOT a
>> Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This
sent
>> a clear message to the rest of us that
we were dealing with people
who
>> saw us as a joke; didn 't respect
our community; and that there was
>> little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
>> colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
>> escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made
it
>> significantly longer (by complaining
about the meeting being long!),
>> and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
>> "poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
>>
>> I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
>> subtext here for those not following why things are happening the
way
>> they are.
>>
>> I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree
on
>> would be something like: we want the
IRC channel to accurately
reflect
>> the atmosphere at the physical
sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
>> encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
>> don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of
problems
>> the channel has, because people tend
to be a lot more decent to each
>> other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
>> about the community.
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
5:24 p.m.
New subject: IRC
Interesting, point taken.
Can a +o (but not +F) -o a +F?
If the +F is abusing its status and no +o can -o the +F, then that seems problematic.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 4:50 PM, David Rorex <drorex(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This is a bit misleading, anyone with +o can override
anyone else with
+o. Including banning / unbanning / filtering decisions / etc.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Jae Kwon <jkwon.work(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> From the thread, it seems that Founder status can override administrative decisions.
Like root status, it has ultimate control.
> So security of Founder status is required to correctly filter the channel.
>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Mischa Spiegelmock <thadwooster(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Founder status is not required to "filter" the content of the channel
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Jae Kwon wrote:
>>
>>> Here's a proposal.
>>>
>>> Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by SudoRoom
the collective. [assumption 1]
>>> Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever
SudoRoom decides. [assumption 2]
>>> Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be filtered
for the purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
>>>
>>> Then I suggest we:
>>>
>>> (0) test the assumptions first.
>>> (a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
>>> (b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot
implementations included.
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> bumping rachel's sentiment here. yardena's note here was the
clearest explanation I've seen, as someone who doesn't really get on the IRC
channel and who would like this information to get out prior to the meeting so as to
reduce meeting time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
>>>> i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and
potentially
>>>>> divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns
are
>>>>> boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without
being
>>>>> dismissive and rude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight
hours
>>>>> last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience
with
>>>>> her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
>>>>>
>>>>> Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
>>>>> policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page,
seeded
>>>>> with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel
so am
>>>>> not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that
process...?
>>>>>
>>>>> R.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
>>>>>> Do you know why America is awesome? We have the time and
privilege and
>>>>>> resources to argue
>>>>>> over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can 't wait for the next comet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen
yardenack(a)gmail.com
>>>>>> mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the
#sudoroom
>>>>>> IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator
>>>>>> privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire.
If
>>>>>> you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
>>>>>> channel will not solve that problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry
and
>>>>>> creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this
once before in
>>>>>> the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male
pronouns
>>>>>> (he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted
harassment, or
>>>>>> at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation
in the
>>>>>> trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's
apologized to me
>>>>>> in private since then but I just want to register that joking
about
>>>>>> hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other
is
>>>>>> NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise
the
>>>>>> accessibility and diversity of our community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op
privileges,
>>>>>> but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I
encourage
>>>>>> people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best
guide
>>>>>> will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv
help flags"
>>>>>> but more general guides are online:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
>>>>>> https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel.
Namely:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
>>>>>> decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting
people
>>>>>> we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly
controversial
>>>>>> and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC
channel in
>>>>>> general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is
the
>>>>>> way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using
oppressive
>>>>>> slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much.
We
>>>>>> happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life
's work
>>>>>> to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be
doing that IN
>>>>>> the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing
anatomical words at
>>>>>> random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this
may
>>>>>> be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the
channel
>>>>>> with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
>>>>>> "accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most
any channel. When
>>>>>> asked to share +F with other people, his response was to
vandalize the
>>>>>> Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
>>>>>> http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime,
he
>>>>>> shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom
since
>>>>>> summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's
name. They 'd also
>>>>>> set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT
a
>>>>>> Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This
sent
>>>>>> a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with
people who
>>>>>> saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that
there was
>>>>>> little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
>>>>>> colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has
only
>>>>>> escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and
made it
>>>>>> significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being
long!),
>>>>>> and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like
"fuck",
>>>>>> "poop" and "this is why you guys never hack
anything".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some
of the
>>>>>> subtext here for those not following why things are happening the
way
>>>>>> they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can
agree on
>>>>>> would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately
reflect
>>>>>> the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that
nicely
>>>>>> encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do
's and
>>>>>> don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of
problems
>>>>>> the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to
each
>>>>>> other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who
care
>>>>>> about the community.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
6:04 p.m.
New subject: IRC
That sounds like a reasonable proposal. It's also reasonable to suggest that the
contents of #sudoroom should be better managed [assumption 3], as per the Articles:
A place where anyone can relax and be fully
self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on
account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or
expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the
rules guard each person's self-respect and dignity and strongly encourage everyone to
respect others.
We should do this through a 2/3 vote. 2/3 of the non-abstained votes need to be in favor
of a +F reassignment. Then, the proposal with the most votes will get +F.
- Jae
On Jan 30, 2013, at 5:15 PM, Clarence Beeks <clarencebeeks7(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So will we do this through consensus? Majority rules?
Unanimous consent?
Filter unsafe things on IRC should really be done at the client level.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Jae Kwon <jkwon.work(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Here's a proposal.
Assume that #sudoroom on FreeNode should be officially operated by SudoRoom the
collective. [assumption 1]
Assume that FreeNode will force the transfer of +F to whoever/whatever SudoRoom decides.
[assumption 2]
Assume that SudoRoom agrees that the contents of #sudoroom should be filtered for the
purpose of SafeSpace. [assumption 3]
Then I suggest we:
(0) test the assumptions first.
(a) vote on whether +F should be reassigned, and if so,
(b) vote to whom +F should go, where candidates are suggested -- real bot implementations
included.
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:26 PM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote:
bumping rachel's sentiment here.
yardena's note here was the clearest explanation I've seen, as someone who
doesn't really get on the IRC channel and who would like this information to get out
prior to the meeting so as to reduce meeting time.
Jan 30, 2013 01:15:46 PM, rachelyra(a)gmail.com wrote:
i think this reply is dismissive and it makes me sadfaced.
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Yardena is talking about much deeper and more insidious, and potentially
divisive, issues than typos or spelling. If you think her concerns are
boring, then you could easily ignore them and stay silent without being
dismissive and rude.
Yardena did an awesome job of facilitating meetings for 6 straight hours
last week... it seems to me like anyone who enjoyed that experience with
her might take a moment to give a damn about her concerns.
Multiple folks have suggested it would be good to have a clear IRC
policy. That seems like a good next step. Maybe a wiki page, seeded
with Yardena 's suggestion here? I am not active on the channel so am
not sure if it makes sense for me to be too involved in that process...?
R.
On 1/30/2013 1:07 PM, Clarence Beeks wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss Do you know why America is awesome? We have the
time and privilege and
resources to argue
over replacing a "Y" with a "J".
I can 't wait for the next comet.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Yardena Cohen yardenack(a)gmail.com
mailto:yardenack@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Apparently the Sudo folk with admin privileges to the #sudoroom
IRC channel are jealously resistant to sharing control,
> This is not the case. Jordana and Tunabananas have operator
privileges and can perform any sort of moderation they desire. If
you have an issue with the content of #sudoroom, creating a new
channel will not solve that problem.
I avoided replying to this right away, because I was too angry and
creeped out over being called "Jordana." He did this once before in
the IRC while at the same time talking about me with male pronouns
(he/his) - he knows better, so I took this as targeted harassment, or
at the very least disingenuous passive aggressive participation in the
trolling games that have been going on lately. He 's apologized to me
in private since then but I just want to register that joking about
hackerspace wars can be fun, but actually gaslighting each other is
NOT fun. It can be scary, intimidating, and seriously compromise the
accessibility and diversity of our community.
As to the substance, he 's absolutely right that we have op privileges,
but this obscures a few things. For technical background, I encourage
people to read about the difference between +F and +o. Your best guide
will be logging onto freenode and typing: "/msg chanserv help flags"
but more general guides are online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC#Modes
https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
There 've been conflicts over how to run the channel. Namely:
1) The person with +F has used his privileges to override the
decisions of those with only +o, at several times unquieting people
we 've quieted. The contexts for these were admittedly controversial
and fall on ideological fault lines over how to run an IRC channel in
general, so I agree 100% with Andrew that a clear IRC policy is the
way to go. For the record, this has been mostly about using oppressive
slurs, and my position has been not to tolerate them very much. We
happen to have in our community a person who makes it his life 's work
to push peoples ' buttons with slurs, and happened to be doing that IN
the IRC channel. He 'd also made a habit of typing anatomical words at
random times. Form your own opinions. Again, the solution to this may
be more about having a clear policy, than who enforces it.
2) The person with +F has acted in bad faith. He flooded the channel
with ascii art of an ejaculating swastika and claimed it was an
"accident", which would be a no-brainer kban in most any channel. When
asked to share +F with other people, his response was to vandalize the
Sudoroom wiki to say he is the "leader" (
http://sudoroom.org/wiki/Community_Structure ). In the meantime, he
shares +F with a friend of his who hadn 't been to Sudoroom since
summer 2012 and didn 't even seem to know anybody 's name. They 'd
also
set the +S (successor) flag for a person who is emphatically NOT a
Sudoroom member and has even publically criticized Sudoroom. This sent
a clear message to the rest of us that we were dealing with people who
saw us as a joke; didn 't respect our community; and that there was
little we could do about it in the short term. That mistrust has
colored all of the talk over IRC privileges since then, and has only
escalated since these same people came to our 1/16 meeting and made it
significantly longer (by complaining about the meeting being long!),
and also filled our meeting agenda notes with things like "fuck",
"poop" and "this is why you guys never hack anything".
I 'm not bitter or anything, just trying to bring out some of the
subtext here for those not following why things are happening the way
they are.
I think the best formulation for IRC rules that everyone can agree on
would be something like: we want the IRC channel to accurately reflect
the atmosphere at the physical sudoroom space. To me, that nicely
encompasses all the many behavioral problems and general do 's and
don 'ts. Honestly the room itself has rarely had the kind of problems
the channel has, because people tend to be a lot more decent to each
other face to face, and because it self-selects for people who care
about the community.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
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sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
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4100
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4101
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13 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Clarence Beeks -
David Rorex -
hol＠gaskill.com -
Jae Kwon -
Matthew Meier -
Matthew Senate -
Mischa Spiegelmock -
rachel lyra hospodar -
William Budington -
Yardena Cohen